80hz versus large Speaker Small Speaker

[Budgie]

Hi Everyone,
I have just upgraded from a Yamaha RXV-520 to a Pioneer VSX-LX302.
Got to luv all the features this amp presents and the microphone setup...But?
My front Mains are Wharfedale Atlantic 500s with a Down-firing Yamaha YST-SW320 Sub Woofer, rear Surrounds are Sansui 200W 8ohm Towers (yes i know, what a load of crap... BUT have served me very well with all of Angus Young and Eric Clapton Guitar Riffs) They look like the Yamaha NS-51 floor standing speakers, an almost clone.
My question is: The 80hz setting is very nice but does not fare very well to the Wharfedale power. So I dropped down to 50Hz and WOW what a difference, the Wharfedales make, they are alive and sound super great. By the way, the setting is to "Small" not "Large" and with "Main+Sub" The microphone test was not to my satisfaction and I used a Sound Tester we use at work for machine noise etc and set the speakers to 78db. The Surround speakers have lost their clarity a little due to the drop in Hz, should I change their setting from "Small" to "Large"? I have EQ the surrounds to have more treble (+4db) which has improved the sound quite a bit. Sadly I am unable to set the surround speakers Hz independently the hz is for all speakers. Also thought of Bi-Amp but the speakers only have 2 post connectors. I'm at work at the moment so I have not tried that other "Large" setting yet.
Ordered the Jamo ATM 50 Dolby Atmos Modules to place on top of the Wharfedales or to the top left and right sides of the room (dunno yet) Do I set the Jamo speakers to Large or Small being Atmos (Height) only?
Been waiting quite a while for the Jamos, 2 weeks now due to Lockdown restraining deliveries.
Some advice would be greatly appreciated.
PS: learned a lot from your YouTube videos you guys rock!
Budgie
Cape Town
South Africa

 

[Kvn_Walker]

"Large vs Small Subwoofers: Exploring LFE, Main, Double Bass, and More | Subwoofer 101"

Discover the differences between the Large and Small Speaker settings in your AVR, and explore the intricacies of LFE+Main, Double Bass, how crossover works, bass management, and more. Learn how to optimize your audio setup with expert guidance from Subwoofer 101.

subwoofer101.com

Setting your front speakers to Large will disable the sub. Even with big front speakers you have to set them as Small so that your crossover will be recognized.

(Now if some receivers behave differently, I can't say. I know my Yamaha was like this)

I didn't think you could set surrounds to large or small. But again, different units could have different settings.

80Hz is a popular frequency, but certainly not the best for every set up. If 50 sounds better for you, by all means stick with it.

 

[Budgie]

Hi There,
Thank you for your the quick reply.
My apologies, I thought it possible to change the Surrounds to large. When I was using the MCACC the auto set found the Surrounds as Large? On the 2nd attempt it saw them as small so, if I did another Mic setup and place the mic further away from the money seat and it chooses large again, am I able to leave it Large and change the Mains back to Small as the mic will set them to large as well.
Much Appreciated
Budgie

 

[ryanosaur]

Something to keep in mind: the Large/Small setting aside, many speakers are not well suited to playing full range information. A speaker, for example, with an F3 of 50-60 Hz will not fare well with the extended dynamic peak of a 25Hz signal.
Common rationale in Bass Management could perhaps me simplified as: speaker protection and optimizing results.
By passing the Low Frequencies to the Subwoofer(s) at 80 Hz, you are ensuring that no signal below 40Hz will be strong enough to harm your speakers. Likewise, in doing so, the power being delivered to your speakers is more effectively and efficiently applied where it matters: to the Upper Bass, Mids, and Highs. My own experience showed me the payoff in that I found more clarity from my Speakers in the Mids and Highs, and the Subwoofers were delivering clean and impactful Bass.
Every system is different, and so are our ears.
Listening critically is a good skill to develop if this is more than just a passing pursuit. I always recommend starting with the XO at 80, OR, at 1 Octave above the F3 of your speaker. (Some recommend 1/2-Octave above.) Regardless, with that, experiment, up and down, with the setting. Listen to music you know with simple but good traits. Good recordings with a demand for Bass, Mid, and High-end detail. Jazz can be great for this, as orchestral, and some Pop. But hearing a clean articulate Upright Bass with a Tenor Sax or Ella Fitzgerald can be quite exposing of what is happening in the transition between Speaker and Sub, and how that effects the reproduction of the recording as a whole.
My speakers that perform down to the mid-20s are crossed at 80. Simply, it SOUNDS BETTER!

Regardless, if you are happy, then be happy and enjoy. If you want to experiment, do so with a critical ear, and open mind.

 

[Mr645]

I recently added a large subwoofer to my home system. My mains are full range, Vandersteen 2Ce Signatures that reach flat down to 31 hz bi-amped by Parasound, and for the past year I had an SVS SB-2000 to fill in the bottom reaches. Well, I recently build a large subwoofer, 18" in 4 cu ft enclosure backed by a 1200 RMS amp and DSP to even it out. I moved the crossover on the processor for the Vandersteen from 40 hz to 80 hz and let this new big subwoofer handle what it is designed for.
well, the results are that the Vandersteens picked up noticeable gains in dynamics, clarity, nothing negative I have found, and the subwoofer easily bests the SVS and full range Vandersteens in the lower reaches. This new set up, bigger sub, raising the low cut off for the mains to 80 hz has taken the system performance to the next level.

 

[Pogre]

You just discovered on your own one of the things we tend to advise folks when they come here asking questions. My towers are flat to 30 Hz as well and I use a 80 Hz crossover too. I also notice an improvement in dynamics and clarity when I offload the bass frequencies to a sub.

 

[flippo]

I tend to like my Towers set to small but crossover at 60hz versus 80. Do what sounds best to you.

 

[Budgie]

Hi Everyone,
I have purchased a pair of Klipsch R51M Bookshelf Speakers as my rears to complete my Pioneer VSX-LX320 AVR to 7.1.2. A pair of Jamo Height speakers for Atmos (I believe rears also compliment Atmos)
My question, when I select "All Channel Stereo" all the speakers should be playing sound correct?, it is now a choice I found after reading through the manual, I must choose to have the Rear Speakers play or Height Speakers play in the AV settings not both at the same time why is this? I performed a factory reset, sadly it remains the same.
So, when I play an Atmos Movie or an Atmos song from Tidal under the AV settings on the AVR I choose Height or Surround Back, I cannot have both. I will quote from the manual.
"When surround back speakers and height speakers are connected, you switch the speakers you want to prioritize for output between speaker A/B/A+B . Note that sound is not output from the surround back speaker during A+B output."
Should my listening experience choice for example be Dolby Surround Rock/Pop I receive a screen pop up showing me I am receiving the sound as Dolby Atmos/D+ Surround Sound Rock/Pop.
Don't get me wrong the sound is great albeit only in 7.1 I cannot listen 7.1.2
Is there a switch setting at the back of the AVR? A/B/A+B setting? Nothing on the remote.
A response will be greatly appreciated
Thank You in advance
Budgie

 

[Trebdp83]

I think you mean the VSX- LX302. It only has seven amplifiers. So, 7.1 or 5.1.2 but no more than seven at a time.

 

[lovinthehd]

Hi Everyone,
I have purchased a pair of Klipsch R51M Bookshelf Speakers as my rears to complete my Pioneer VSX-LX320 AVR to 7.1.2. A pair of Jamo Height speakers for Atmos (I believe rears also compliment Atmos)
My question, when I select "All Channel Stereo" all the speakers should be playing sound correct?, it is now a choice I found after reading through the manual, I must choose to have the Rear Speakers play or Height Speakers play in the AV settings not both at the same time why is this? I performed a factory reset, sadly it remains the same.
So, when I play an Atmos Movie or an Atmos song from Tidal under the AV settings on the AVR I choose Height or Surround Back, I cannot have both. I will quote from the manual.
"When surround back speakers and height speakers are connected, you switch the speakers you want to prioritize for output between speaker A/B/A+B . Note that sound is not output from the surround back speaker during A+B output."
Should my listening experience choice for example be Dolby Surround Rock/Pop I receive a screen pop up showing me I am receiving the sound as Dolby Atmos/D+ Surround Sound Rock/Pop.
Don't get me wrong the sound is great albeit only in 7.1 I cannot listen 7.1.2
Is there a switch setting at the back of the AVR? A/B/A+B setting? Nothing on the remote.
A response will be greatly appreciated
Thank You in advance
Budgie

Yep like trep says, you need an avr either with 9 channels of amps, or 7 channels of amps with an option for an external amp with 9 ch of processing capability. I remember when I got my first 7ch avr, a Pioneer, I hooked up 9 with the hope they could all play, but at least it gave me the option to decide whether I liked rear surrounds or height speakers (but still only 7.1 back then, via PLIIz). I'd go 5.1.2 in your case, tho.

 

[Budgie]

I think you mean the VSX- LX302. It only has seven amplifiers. So, 7.1 or 5.1.2 but no more than seven at a time.

Hi There,
My apologies, you are correct VSX - LX 302, I was probably frustrated of why I I couldn't play all speakers.
That settles my problem.
Perhaps a trade in on a 9 channel amp,
Thanks Guys for the Heads-up.
Budgie

 

[Budgie]

Hi There,
I have another question, I purchased Jamo Dolby Atmos enabled speakers in 2020 and at first had them placed on top of my Wharfedale Atlantic 500s and I could not quite experience the Atmos effect even increasing Db higher was not much help.
They are now mounted on the wall left and right firing downwards towards where we sit, the sound has improved substantially. My question is, on the Pioneer VSX-LX302 I am able to set the Jamo Speakers as Height middle/rear/front or Ceiling middle/rear/front or mounted on top of front tower/rear tower/surround tower the last selection being Dolby Atmos enabled speakers of which the Jamo's are, where they are mounted, should they be set as Dolby Atmos enabled or Middle height so the Pioneer sends the correct signal. It's confusing as I cannot determine differences in the effects, perhaps I should purchase a Dolby Atmos demo disc or a movie that has the best Atmos sounds and play around with the settings.
Sorry for the noob question.
Budgie

 

[lovinthehd]

Where are they particularly in the room, i.e. on what wall and where are your seats in relation to that?

 

[Budgie]

Hi,
That was a quick reply, OK, rear speakers behind the viewing couch, surround speakers to the left and right of the couch. The Jamo speakers are mounted one on the right side wall the other the left side wall about 1 meter in front of the couch and 2 meters up the wall

 

[lovinthehd]

Height front or ceiling front would seem most appropriate altho it's not particularly the place for either Hey, just answered your thread about connecting the slave avr....

 

[Budgie]

Thank you,
When you mention Height Front or Ceiling Front, when looking on the Pioneer set-up screen, fronts are just in front of the main tower speakers should it not be set to rear as that would be close to the couch. The Pioneer does not support pre-amplifier but has 2 12v trigger input jacks. When I watch an Atmos movie on Netflix I choose the Height Speakers, when listening to good music I change to the Rear Speakers.

 

[Budgie]

Hi, I found a link pertaining to speaker set-up the Pioneer VSX-LX302

User manual Pioneer VSX-LX302 (English - 97 pages)

Manual Pioneer VSX-LX302. View the Pioneer VSX-LX302 manual for free or ask your question to other Pioneer VSX-LX302 owners.

www.manua.ls

 

[lovinthehd]

Thank you,
When you mention Height Front or Ceiling Front, when looking on the Pioneer set-up screen, fronts are just in front of the main tower speakers should it not be set to rear as that would be close to the couch. The Pioneer does not support pre-amplifier but has 2 12v trigger input jacks. When I watch an Atmos movie on Netflix I choose the Height Speakers, when listening to good music I change to the Rear Speakers.

AFAICT it's just front being front of room, middle being middle of room, rear to rear of room. Maybe even middle is appropriate where you placed them on the sidewalls just forward of your seat? Like you said, you might need specific directional material to find a preference....

 

[Budgie]

Great! Thank you for your advice and prompt replies.
Much appreciated indeed

 

[ryanosaur]

For the standard programming locations, Front Height is on the front wall above the main speakers. Top Front is usually ceiling mount (but can also be mounted on the side walls) and placed where you describe, in front of the LP. Top Middle is directly overhead or immediately to the sides. Top Back is placed similar to Top Front, but behind the LP. Rear Height is on the back wall opposite the locations of Front Height.
Best reference is to look directly at the Dolby guides for what you want to achieve:

Dolby Atmos Speaker Setup Guides

Browse our wide-range of Dolby Atmos speaker step-by-step setup guides to find the best speaker placement and configuration for your home theater.

www.dolby.com

FWIW, Top Front seems to be the preferred .2 location, and if you expand to .4 you would add Top Back. In general, this seems to be agreed upon as giving the best experience.
Front and Rear Height seem regarded as a somewhat poor compromise.
This, of course, also becomes a great demonstration for the meaning of YMMV.