Monolith 5X or Model 5000 for Polk LSiM707 system

[tparm]

Hi, haven't been here for a while and I did try to search to see if I was kicking an already dead horse here but I couldn't find anything specific to my question so here it goes....

I test drove a friends Monolith 5X and loved it, but will the Outlaw Model 5000 do nearly the same for half the price? I recently bought Polk Audio LSiM707, 706c, 703 based system and my NAD T758 V3 doesn't have the guts these speakers demand. My room is 28x20x9 and I use a sub for LFE but usually run the 707s full range for music.

Seems like the Outlaw is a little warmer and the Monolith a bit more analytical from what I've read here and other places. I run Dirac via my NAD which lessens the affect of an amps signature. I'm inclined to go Monolith for the extra output and perhaps its a bit quicker, but truly the price difference is significant. Oh, I don't need balanced inputs either.

Thoughts, comments, advice?

Thanks.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The Outlaw-5000 amp is more like an "AVR-amp", although it is a very good one.

The Monolith amp is more like an "Audiophile-Amp" made by ATI.

Will the Model-5000 sound as good as an audiophile amp? Sure, it can sound as good.

An AVR without any external amps can also sound as good.

It depends on what the amp is asked to do.

 

[lovinthehd]

Audiophiles are people, not amps. The Monolith has a dB or two advantage, and a lower snr. Audible "signature" meh, hope not.

https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/monoprice-monolith-7-channel-amplifier-review/3
https://www.audioholics.com/amplifier-reviews/outlaw-5000/measurements

 

[tparm]

....Audiophile-grade amp, there we go. Read all the specs, a few times, think I'm going Monoprice. Plus their Monolith speaker cable and interconnects, just 'cause I'm a nerd like that. Sort of future proofing; never run out of power and have balanced inputs if I ever change my processor. That's my way of justifying the price anyway!

 

[PENG]

Seems like the Outlaw is a little warmer and the Monolith a bit more analytical from what I've read here and other places.

Thoughts, comments, advice?

I'd say whatever you read about them being "little warmer".. .."..more analytical"...kind of comments were the subjective views of individuals and should not be taken as facts. In reality it is far more likely the Monolith and Outlaw would sound neutral and accurate enough that you cannot tell a difference if you cannot see which one is playing as long as both are used well within their power limits.

The Monolith offers a little more power output but wouldn't make more than 1.5 to 2 dB of spl. It also has a slightly lower gain, making it difficult for the T758 V3 to drive it to its full potential because based on bench test measurements the NAD's pre out performed poorly at higher output level.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-and-measurements-of-nad-t758-v3-avr.8912/

I think we can do a better job suggesting amps for you if we an have a better idea of what your power need really is first. The linked calculator should help.

https://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

If you are sitting close enough, say 2 to 2.5 meters, and 80 dB average (based on just 1 speaker) is as loud as you would go then T758 V3 should be fine especially if you set the crossover to 80 or 90 Hz; and in that case a 200 W amp may not make audible difference. The LSIM 707 should have good response down to 30 Hz but that could be more reasons to cut them off much earlier, such as 80/90 Hz for better integration with your sub, assuming you have a capable sub.

 

[tparm]

Thanks PENG. All of that makes sense on paper, but when I was using my old Adcom GFA-7300 (like the 758, rated at 60 wpc all channels driven) it appeared to have more control over what the speaker's drivers were doing. I don't know audiophile terminology, but when pushed it was cleaner, it seemed to not only push the drivers but also pull them back creating a sound that was more cohesive and clean than the NAD on its own, best way I know to describe it.

While I'm not much of a fan of audioscience reviews, that is a good point about the pre-out performance. I will research that a bit further.

I still listen to a fair amount of music in 2-channel and I like the Polks running at full range when I do. Until my home is completed (building) I am not using a sub as my current room is tiny and the 707s look ridiculous, but I will buy either a Monolith M15-S or an SB-4000. As mentioned my space is fairly large at 5000 cuft and I listen to music pretty loud along with an occasional movie. Bladerunner 2049 is freaking awesome.... can't wait to fully experience that movie.

 

[lovinthehd]

You verified this "control" with your eyes it sounds like. Audiophile terminology is usually just plain goofy, as are most self-described "audiophiles". The pre-out level could make a difference as to amp performance, tho. I'd agree that Bladerunner 2049 will be much better with proper subs....and you might need more than a single sealed in a room that size, too.

 

[tparm]

You verified this "control" with your eyes it sounds like. Audiophile terminology is usually just plain goofy, as are most self-described "audiophiles". The pre-out level could make a difference as to amp performance, tho. I'd agree that Bladerunner 2049 will be much better with proper subs....and you might need more than a single sealed in a room that size, too.

lovinthehd, verified with my nearly 48 year old ears that have survived years of playing drums and racing cars not altogether unscathed.

 

[everettT]

....Audiophile-grade amp, there we go. Read all the specs, a few times, think I'm going Monoprice. Plus their Monolith speaker cable and interconnects, just 'cause I'm a nerd like that. Sort of future proofing; never run out of power and have balanced inputs if I ever change my processor. That's my way of justifying the price anyway!

Regardless of the spec, both are good and most likely inaudible between them.

 

[Pogre]

Thanks PENG. All of that makes sense on paper, but when I was using my old Adcom GFA-7300 (like the 758, rated at 60 wpc all channels driven) it appeared to have more control over what the speaker's drivers were doing. I don't know audiophile terminology, but when pushed it was cleaner, it seemed to not only push the drivers but also pull them back creating a sound that was more cohesive and clean than the NAD on its own, best way I know to describe it.

While I'm not much of a fan of audioscience reviews, that is a good point about the pre-out performance. I will research that a bit further.

I still listen to a fair amount of music in 2-channel and I like the Polks running at full range when I do. Until my home is completed (building) I am not using a sub as my current room is tiny and the 707s look ridiculous, but I will buy either a Monolith M15-S or an SB-4000. As mentioned my space is fairly large at 5000 cuft and I listen to music pretty loud along with an occasional movie. Bladerunner 2049 is freaking awesome.... can't wait to fully experience that movie.

I question any audibly "cleaner" sound you might have heard to be either more expectation biased or the difference in gain structure. Most amps aim for flat and neutral and should sound the same, all things being equal.

You have a large area, almost as big as mine. I'm running a pair of ported 15" subwoofers and could maybe get away with one, but positioning would be very tricky. I'd strongly recommend going ported too.

 

[PENG]

lovinthehd, verified with my nearly 48 year old ears that have survived years of playing drums and racing cars not altogether unscathed.

I had used a GFA555 for many years, but never experience what you described. A 60 W Adcom may be comparable to the T758 but it won't be able to do better in terms of output into 8,4 or 2 ohms. If it did, then there is something wrong with your T758.

If you are the perceptive type that trust 2 ears and brains more than measurements by real engineers like Amir of Audiosciencereview (I am not a fan either, as it's really about objective facts and science), then I have nothing else to say on the objective side of things.

Back to power need, if you don't want to calculate your estimated power need I would just assume you will be sitting further than 10-13 ft ft based on you 5000 cu ft room, and would suggest you get a 300 to 500 W amp, but one that has a gain of at least 29 dB, preferably higher, unless you upgrade your AVR.

 

[tparm]

I had used a GFA555 for many years, but never experience what you described. A 60 W Adcom may be comparable to the T758 but it won't be able to do better in terms of output into 8,4 or 2 ohms. If it did, then there is something wrong with your T758.

If you are the perceptive type that trust 2 ears and brains more than measurements by real engineers like Amir of Audiosciencereview (I am not a fan either, as it's really about objective facts and science), then I have nothing else to say on the objective side of things.

Back to power need, if you don't want to calculate your estimated power need I would just assume you will be sitting further than 10-13 ft ft based on you 5000 cu ft room, and would suggest you get a 300 to 500 W amp, but one that has a gain of at least 29 dB, preferably higher, unless you upgrade your AVR.

I'm 13', speakers are well out into the room; 60w 92.8, 125w 96, 200w 98.1. However, with vastly different power supplies and capacitance capability, and somewhat different measured specification, I disagree that all three of these amps will perform the same in my space, at 90 db, playing the same track. Why would anyone ever buy anything other than a $600 AV receiver if that's the case? Serious question, not trying to be argumentative.

There are reviewers I do read and have some faith in that use both objective science based test and subjective "here's how it sounds compared to XX...." I just find Amir super biased and sort of obnoxious.

 

[PENG]

I disagree that all three of these amps will perform the same in my space, at 90 db, playing the same track.

Not with me I guess, as I would not have said such a thing. If I say anything like two amps will perform the same...blablabla, I would qualify such statements, that is, specify the specific, or at least general conditions under which the units are compared. Under various conditions, of course amps can perform/sound different.

Why would anyone ever buy anything other than a $600 AV receiver if that's the case? Serious question, not trying to be argumentative.

That is not argumentative at all as it is a fair question. I for one, have never bought a $600 AV receiver for my own use, but people buy things for different reasons.

There are reviewers I do read and have some faith in that use both objective science based test and subjective "here's how it sounds compared to XX...." I just find Amir super biased and sort of obnoxious.

As I alluded to before, I am only interested in the objective side, ie. facts, data, measurements. So I won't comment on Amir's subjective views, but as far as I know, like Gene (AH), he also uses an AP analyzer and seems to follow the proper methodologies/procedures according to AP's instructions and established protocols. Also, as I mentioned before he is an electrical engineer (like Gene too..) who practiced in real engineering work before. Subjective reviews mean little to me (that's just me), though I often read them for entertainment.

I don't know if reviews who you have faith in are as credible in terms of the reviewers qualifications and the analyzer(s) they used. AP's analyzer had been used by reputable reviewers including the Audioholics.com, S&V, hometheaterhifi.com, and amp manufacturers. Below is a link to their website in case you may be interested in reading about the AP.

https://www.ap.com/electronicelectrical-test/

 

[lovinthehd]

lovinthehd, verified with my nearly 48 year old ears that have survived years of playing drums and racing cars not altogether unscathed.

YMMV. Why do you think it's particularly cone control you're hearing? Reading too much about damping factor or ?

 

[tparm]

YMMV. Why do you think it's particularly cone control you're hearing? Reading too much about damping factor or ?

100% subjective. If specs matter, the two external amps should maintain better control as the load demand increases, no?

 

[lovinthehd]

100% subjective is mostly meaningless, tho. Define control.

 

[tparm]

100% subjective. If specs matter, the two external amps should maintain better control as the load demand increases, no?

Cohesion between frequencies, less compression / deterioration of soundstage.....

 

[lovinthehd]

Cohesion between frequencies, less compression / deterioration of soundstage.....

What's that got to do with the amp, tho? Sounds like speaker issues.

 

[tparm]

What's that got to do with the amp, tho? Sounds like speaker issues.

Not at all. Thanks for chatting.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

....Audiophile-grade amp, there we go. Read all the specs, a few times, think I'm going Monoprice. Plus their Monolith speaker cable and interconnects, just 'cause I'm a nerd like that. Sort of future proofing; never run out of power and have balanced inputs if I ever change my processor. That's my way of justifying the price anyway!

IMO if you own an AVR you probably don’t “need” an external amp, but it doesn’t hurt.

If you’re getting an external amp because you feel your speakers require it, then you might as well go “all the way” and get a more “hardcore” amp like the amps made by ATI (200W and 300W amps).

If you got the Model-5000, you’ll only be asking yourself “what if”.