Help updating my old 2 channel system

[JMB]

Hello

I've been following this forum for quite some time but this is my first post on the forum. I recently decided to update (replace?) my 30 year old two channel system. The first thing I did was purchase new speakers, a pair of Monitor Audio Silver 300s. I currently have them connected to a Yamaha AVX-20 integrated amp rated at 100 watts per channel that I purchased in 1991. I am also using a Yamaha CD player purchased around the same time, and sometimes connect my laptop via an 3.5mm to RCA cable connected to the headphone jack.

The room is 14.5 x 13.5 with a 5 foot opening in the rear and another one on the left side. I sit about 10 feet from the speakers and normal listening level is around 70db measured with a free IPhone SPL app.

I have a remaining budget of about $1000 and am looking for advice on how to best use that to get the most out of the Silver 300s and add proper streaming from Spotify for Tidal.

Here are some things I am considering but am open to any ideas and would really appreciate the advice of someone with more audio expertise:

A Yamaha WXC-50 with a Parasound 2125v2 Amplifier. I figured the WXC-50 would give me the streaming capabilitiies I need and the Parasound amp would be more than enough power.
or
Then I saw I could get a Marantz NR-1608 for only a little bit more than the WXC-50. That would also give me the streaming capabilities I need and I could use the L/R Pre-Outs to connect to the Parasound 2125, and I would also get Audessy Room Correction (Does that even apply to 2 channel or is it only for home theatre surround sound applicatons) .
or
A new integrated Amp like a Yamaha AS-801. This has a USB input. My understandng is that I could connect a computer to that USB, stream through the computer, and it would use the DAC in the AS-801.

I guess I could also just connect something like the WXC-50 to my old AVX-20 to get the streaming but i am guessing the Silver 300s deserve something a little better for amplification.

Again, thank you in advance for any advise you may offer.

John

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

For myself, I would add a subwoofer, and an apple airport express. This would allow you to use AirPlay from your iPhone to stream from your phone, iTunes Spotify etc. you can also use it to stream your library from a pc/laptop. Not sure about tidal...
I said subwoofer first but should ask. What kind of music do you enjoy? While I’m definitely a subwoofer advocate, your tastes might not benefit as much from one.

 

[markw]

To be honest, the best upgrade you made was the speakers. Everything else still stands up to more modern tech. Airplay is nice and will expand your sources but it really won't improve your SQ.

Like Mr Lemmerhirt (above) said, the most significant improvement you could make would be for a great subwoofer, unless you just want to throw money into a new purchase.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd think generally a subwoofer addition would be a good way to go, but your current integrated amp doesn't really have any provision for one so adding one will have some limitations. I'd get a good avr on an appropriate sale that has a variety of inputs, hardwired as well as wi-fi, rather than another limited feature integrated amp (avrs generally have much better bass management features). The Marantz slim-lines don't particularly appeal to me, tho. Is size an issue?

 

[JMB]

For myself, I would add a subwoofer, and an apple airport express. This would allow you to use AirPlay from your iPhone to stream from your phone, iTunes Spotify etc. you can also use it to stream your library from a pc/laptop. Not sure about tidal...
I said subwoofer first but should ask. What kind of music do you enjoy? While I’m definitely a subwoofer advocate, your tastes might not benefit as much from one.

Thanks for your reply. My musical tastes include just about everything. Mostly classic rock, Celtic, acoustic rock, some classical, etc.. The Silver 300s are rated at down to 32hz which I think is low enough for most of what I listen to, especially at moderate volume. Also, the my current integrated does not have a sub out jack, so I am not even sure how I would connect a subwoofer. In addtion, I don't really have a place for a subwoofer in the current room configuration, the only place I could see to put one, it would have to be a wireless sub

 

[JMB]

I'd think generally a subwoofer addition would be a good way to go, but your current integrated amp doesn't really have any provision for one so adding one will have some limitations. I'd get a good avr on an appropriate sale that has a variety of inputs, hardwired as well as wi-fi, rather than another limited feature integrated amp (avrs generally have much better bass management features). The Marantz slim-lines don't particularly appeal to me, tho. Is size an issue?

Space for a subwoofer is an issue, but I could put a full size AVR. The slimline Marantz was the least expensive AVR I found with pre outs, because I thought I would be better off with a separate amp. I only need two channels right now so should I also look at Stereo Receivers?

 

[lovinthehd]

Space for a subwoofer is an issue, but I could put a full size AVR. The slimline Marantz was the least expensive AVR I found with pre outs, because I thought I would be better off with a separate amp. I only need two channels right now so should I also look at Stereo Receivers?

I'd still look at avrs even you want just 2ch plus sub, then they're easily expandable. Generally the economies of scale make them better choices (aside from size) IMO for particularly use of a sub. They often have better 2ch specs amp-wise than many similarly priced 2ch integrated amps. Subwoofer size accommodation is a separate issue, generally larger subs do better....as well as ideal placement. What are your speaker specs?

 

[JMB]

Monitor Audio Silver 300

• frequency response: 32-35,000 Hz (-6dB)
• sensitivity: 90 dB
• impedance: 8 ohms
• recommended amplifier power: 80-200 watts

 

[MrBoat]

Monitor Audio Silver 300

• frequency response: 32-35,000 Hz (-6dB)
• sensitivity: 90 dB
• impedance: 8 ohms
• recommended amplifier power: 80-200 watts

70 db avg SPL listening is probably not where those speakers really turn on. Okay for background music, but performance wise, they probably don't start to really sing until mid 80s plus, and the equipment you already have is more than adequate for that level of performance. I don't hear anything exciting from any performance speakers at that low level and could get by with what amounts to value speakers like the JBL LSR series, if that's all I needed them to do. Sound nice, sure, but it seems like a waste of capability with a system essentially operating at idle. Not that this is a bad thing, preferences being as subjective as they are, but it seems it would be difficult to imagine an improvement.

I like subwoofers (I own 7, of varying size/type) too, but some of the two, or 3-way speakers that get into the mid 30 hz area can have some pretty amazing sounding bass and without much fuss. I listen with and without subwoofers and if my sources are good, I don't need the subwoofers for music I listen to. I haven't turned my subs on for 4-5 months now with using just 2 channel. Classic rock, especially likes to be turned up. I may start out at low level but it isn't long before the speakers start prompting nudging of the volume control until it is quite (albeit pleasantly) loud. I don't know how much performance upgrade subwoofers would add at that low listening level.

For low level listening, I like my 60-80 watt bookshelf type speakers, and pretty much point blank like, in a near field, or desktop arrangement. At 70db, I can hardly see any movement from the drivers on my main system speakers.

 

[PENG]

Space for a subwoofer is an issue, but I could put a full size AVR. The slimline Marantz was the least expensive AVR I found with pre outs, because I thought I would be better off with a separate amp. I only need two channels right now so should I also look at Stereo Receivers?

Least expensive? See if you can get them shipped free on this unbeatable deal:
https://gibbyselectronicsupermarket.ca/product/denon-avr-x3500h/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrqKEwtLI5AIVyZ6zCh2VTwCKEAYYASABEgJdHvD_BwE

C$699 brand new, authorized dealer. That's US$ 531!! Original list price was US$999 if I remember right.
It is a couple inches taller than the Marantz slim line NR1609, but then you won't need any external amp. It has enough power to drive your MA Silver to their limits at your 10 ft listening distance. The Slim line only comes with MultEQ, that's two notches below XT32, no comparison at all.

It comes with Audyssey XT32 sub EQ HT, that will be handy if you can fit a little sealed sub such as the SB1000. I am very familiar with the Monitor Audio Silver, as others mentioned, adding a sub is a good upgrade.

The graph shown below is for the 2017 model, but the amp sections are the same as the 2018 model. You can see that it's power output is comparable to that of your AVX-20 but at lower distortions and quieter.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench#DhCES4UiRzZMmZJ7.99"

"This graph shows that the AVR-X3400H’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 123.0 watts and 1% distortion at 147.6 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 145.4 watts and 1% distortion at 176.6 watts.

 

[JMB]

70 db avg SPL listening is probably not where those speakers really turn on. Okay for background music, but performance wise, they probably don't start to really sing until mid 80s plus, and the equipment you already have is more than adequate for that level of performance. I don't hear anything exciting from any performance speakers at that low level and could get by with what amounts to value speakers like the JBL LSR series, if that's all I needed them to do. Sound nice, sure, but it seems like a waste of capability with a system essentially operating at idle. Not that this is a bad thing, preferences being as subjective as they are, but it seems it would be difficult to imagine an improvement.

I like subwoofers (I own 7, of varying size/type) too, but some of the two, or 3-way speakers that get into the mid 30 hz area can have some pretty amazing sounding bass and without much fuss. I listen with and without subwoofers and if my sources are good, I don't need the subwoofers for music I listen to. I haven't turned my subs on for 4-5 months now with using just 2 channel. Classic rock, especially likes to be turned up. I may start out at low level but it isn't long before the speakers start prompting nudging of the volume control until it is quite (albeit pleasantly) loud. I don't know how much performance upgrade subwoofers would add at that low listening level.

For low level listening, I like my 60-80 watt bookshelf type speakers, and pretty much point blank like, in a near field, or desktop arrangement. At 70db, I can hardly see any movement from the drivers on my main system speakers.[/

70 db avg SPL listening is probably not where those speakers really turn on. Okay for background music, but performance wise, they probably don't start to really sing until mid 80s plus, and the equipment you already have is more than adequate for that level of performance. I don't hear anything exciting from any performance speakers at that low level and could get by with what amounts to value speakers like the JBL LSR series, if that's all I needed them to do. Sound nice, sure, but it seems like a waste of capability with a system essentially operating at idle. Not that this is a bad thing, preferences being as subjective as they are, but it seems it would be difficult to imagine an improvement.

I like subwoofers (I own 7, of varying size/type) too, but some of the two, or 3-way speakers that get into the mid 30 hz area can have some pretty amazing sounding bass and without much fuss. I listen with and without subwoofers and if my sources are good, I don't need the subwoofers for music I listen to. I haven't turned my subs on for 4-5 months now with using just 2 channel. Classic rock, especially likes to be turned up. I may start out at low level but it isn't long before the speakers start prompting nudging of the volume control until it is quite (albeit pleasantly) loud. I don't know how much performance upgrade subwoofers would add at that low listening level.

For low level listening, I like my 60-80 watt bookshelf type speakers, and pretty much point blank like, in a near field, or desktop arrangement. At 70db, I can hardly see any movement from the drivers on my main system speakers.

Agree on the starting low and getting louder. Happens a lot but one of the things I like about the MAs is that they sound good to me even at lower volumes for late night listening. I also think they have adequate bass for my needs/tastes. Thanks for the input. Much appreciated

 

[JMB]

Least expensive? See if you can get them shipped free on this unbeatable deal:
https://gibbyselectronicsupermarket.ca/product/denon-avr-x3500h/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIrqKEwtLI5AIVyZ6zCh2VTwCKEAYYASABEgJdHvD_BwE

C$699 brand new, authorized dealer. That's US$ 531!! Original list price was US$999 if I remember right.
It is a couple inches taller than the Marantz slim line NR1609, but then you won't need any external amp. It has enough power to drive your MA Silver to their limits at your 10 ft listening distance. The Slim line only comes with MultEQ, that's two notches below XT32, no comparison at all.

It comes with Audyssey XT32 sub EQ HT, that will be handy if you can fit a little sealed sub such as the SB1000. I am very familiar with the Monitor Audio Silver, as others mentioned, adding a sub is a good upgrade.

The graph shown below is for the 2017 model, but the amp sections are the same as the 2018 model. You can see that it's power output is comparable to that of your AVX-20 but at lower distortions and quieter.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-x3400h-av-receiver-review-test-bench#DhCES4UiRzZMmZJ7.99"

View attachment 31191

"This graph shows that the AVR-X3400H’s left channel, from CD input to speaker output with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reaches 0.1% distortion at 123.0 watts and 1% distortion at 147.6 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reaches 0.1% distortion at 145.4 watts and 1% distortion at 176.6 watts.

Thanks. That is a great deal. It seems the consensus is to replace my AVX-20 with a good AVR which will give me the streaming features I need and possible room correction advantages and the sound should be equivalent to using a separate power amp. And if possible add a subwoofer.

 

[Pogre]

Another vote for subwoofer. Those speakers might be rated down to 32 hz, but they are not full range speakers. A good sub will take some of the load off your speakers and amp section giving you a little more headroom and loosen up your nice speakers so they can really sing. I also like Peng's suggestion for the 3400. That will give you bass management along with a slew of other features should you ever decide to expand.

 

[Pogre]

This SB1000 is a very clean, smooth subwoofer that would add fullness to your speakers. It's also pretty small (about 13" cube),so it's easy to place. All of us who are suggesting a subwoofer aren't just bass heads. A good sub has a way of adding weight to the entire spectrum and allows your speakers to focus on the higher frequencies for better clarity. It can give you more of an improvement in sound quality than any amplifier would.

 

[PENG]

Thanks. That is a great deal. It seems the consensus is to replace my AVX-20 with a good AVR which will give me the streaming features I need and possible room correction advantages and the sound should be equivalent to using a separate power amp. And if possible add a subwoofer.

If the AVX-20 is in top shape, keep it. First of all, its phono stage may be better, if you plan on using a turntable. Secondly, you may want to try bi-amping, in that case use it for the mid/tweeter as the Denon AVR-X3500H is more powerful for the bass drivers and it has Audyssey XT32.

FYI, since you mention the Marantz slimlines, the NR1609 and AVR-X3500H has the same DACs and preamp/vol control ICs. The amp sections will be very similar in terms of circuitry but the Denon obviously has a much larger power supply and more powerful amps. The slimline models don't have HDAM, making them virtually identical to Denon's in many ways.

 

[2channel lover]

Thanks for your reply. My musical tastes include just about everything. Mostly classic rock, Celtic, acoustic rock, some classical, etc.. The Silver 300s are rated at down to 32hz which I think is low enough for most of what I listen to, especially at moderate volume. Also, the my current integrated does not have a sub out jack, so I am not even sure how I would connect a subwoofer. In addtion, I don't really have a place for a subwoofer in the current room configuration, the only place I could see to put one, it would have to be a wireless sub

My speakers are rated to 33hz and they sound okay 2.0...but 2.1 or in my case 2.2 the system sounds much better.

But at the same time, I understand the challenges of integrating a sub with older equipment also.

The sub would be the best money spent in terms of improving SQ...a new AVR or integrated amp would modernize your system for streaming, etc.

As said at the top...the best investment you could make, you've already made with the Slivers...congrats on that purchase and good luck with the rest of the build.

 

[MrBoat]

Agree on the starting low and getting louder. Happens a lot but one of the things I like about the MAs is that they sound good to me even at lower volumes for late night listening. I also think they have adequate bass for my needs/tastes. Thanks for the input. Much appreciated

After posting, I did go and listen at 70db to speakers that rate into the mid 30hz range and it seems louder than I remember but that is a near field system. I just never really listen that low. Still, everything about the speakers, including bass becomes more apparent from there on up. It could also be my aged hearing that does not react well to low volumes, instead of the speakers. I have to remember that as well. Some electronic music with heavy bass, and if I were into movies, perhaps. On the vintage amp I use with my speakers, there is no lack of bass from the combination. It is either set to flat, or just shy of that, depending on the artist/recording. Also, two of my larger speakers that I use most frequently have 12" woofers so mileage may vary there as well.

In my situation, the optimum placement for the subs places them inconveniently in the room. They would have to be made into furniture, or moved into play each time. That's what prompted me to try without and compare. Otherwise, I have stereo subwoofers right where my speakers need to go too, if I want to actually live in the living room without what amounts to about 8 cu. ft of space taken up for bass, in a 12' x 20' room.

So, what do I end up using the subs for these days? My smaller 2-way bookshelf speakers and my wide band driver speakers that are really great midrange and high frequency performers, that don't perform so much below 50hz. But my large towers don't need it. I am not used to the newer trend of smaller woofers and skinny towers.

 

[JMB]

If the AVX-20 is in top shape, keep it. First of all, its phono stage may be better, if you plan on using a turntable. Secondly, you may want to try bi-amping, in that case use it for the mid/tweeter as the Denon AVR-X3500H is more powerful for the bass drivers and it has Audyssey XT32.

If the AVX-20 is in top shape, keep it. First of all, its phono stage may be better, if you plan on using a turntable. Secondly, you may want to try bi-amping, in that case use it for the mid/tweeter as the Denon AVR-X3500H is more powerful for the bass drivers and it has Audyssey XT32.

FYI, since you mention the Marantz slimlines, the NR1609 and AVR-X3500H has the same DACs and preamp/vol control ICs. The amp sections will be very similar in terms of circuitry but the Denon obviously has a much larger power supply and more powerful amps. The slimline models don't have HDAM, making them virtually identical to Denon's in many ways.

FYI, since you mention the Marantz slimlines, the NR1609 and AVR-X3500H has the same DACs and preamp/vol control ICs. The amp sections will be very similar in terms of circuitry but the Denon obviously has a much larger power supply and more powerful amps. The slimline models don't have HDAM, making them virtually identical to Denon's in many ways.

Thanks for that info. The AVX-20

I am intrigued by the biamping idea with the older integerated, but I am not sure I would know how to do that. I don't think the AVX-20 has a power amp direct input or whatever it would need, so what inputs would I use to feed to just the amp section? (I really have no idea what I am talking about here)

And now off to google HDAM :>)

Thanks...

 

[PENG]

S

Thanks for that info. The AVX-20

I am intrigued by the biamping idea with the older integerated, but I am not sure I would know how to do that. I don't think the AVX-20 has a power amp direct input or whatever it would need, so what inputs would I use to feed to just the amp section? (I really have no idea what I am talking about here)

And now off to google HDAM :>)

Thanks...

Sorry, you are right it does not have inputs for use as power amp like many integrates amps do. It can still be done but it is not something I would recommend.

HDAM is just an extra buffer stage Marantz use at the preamp output. The benefits they claimed, such as better slew rate, noise etc., are not unique to IC OPAs. The fact is, upstream of this discrete circuit board, there are still a few ICs, so even if the claimed benefits are real, logically speaking it doesn't really matter. In fact, it wasn't until a couple years ago, that they finally replaced a LSI (large scale integrated) IC with separate MSI (medium scale integrated) chips to perform the preamp/vol control and switching functions. That LSI IC was a real bottleneck back then, but even the current MSI ICs are still ICs, so I failed to see the logic of addressing the IC concerns by simply adding an extra discrete buffer stage board. It' largely just marketing hype, and I surely did not hear any difference between my Marantz AVP (has HDAM) and Denon AVRs (no HDAM).

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

So the main thing is streaming audio service?

Just get an AVR like Yamaha RX-A1080/1070 or Denon X3500/3400.

Good sound, good power, streaming.