Denon/Marantz vs Yamaha vs Anthem Thread

[snakeeyes]

Glad you said that! I was thinking it and assuming that is why D&M is sticking with Graphic EQ; but wanted confirmation from someone who has been around the bock a few more times than I have (w.r.t. EQ systems)!
If you are using REW, the parametric is definitely superior, but for the normal bloke adjusting his system the graphic is much easier to use.
The majority of customers will never take measurements.

There are a few choices or a manual one. The “natural” one sounds like the older Yamaha RXV3300 I had previously.

 

[liquid360]

Just purchased my first Marantz product. I’d love to explain to you just how amazing this 8805 is and why it’s such a superior processor, however, I’ve yet to turn it on. It’s literally just out of box, but looks nice lol
If you wanna buy a pure processor under 15k, your options are incredibly limited.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[PENG]

Just purchased my first Marantz product. I’d love to explain to you just how amazing this 8805 is and why it’s such a superior processor, however, I’ve yet to turn it on. It’s literally just out of box, but looks nice lol
If you wanna buy a pure processor under 15k, your options are incredibly limited.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Congrats! I have seen the schematics and the parts list, can tell you something about that too.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

@AcuDefTechGuy I strongly agree with you that the (D/M) remote app is garbage. I've been trying all day today to stream siriusXM and it has cut out at least 15 times and stopped playing altogether. I know it isn't my connection. When i test it, it shows 53 meg steadily. Error messages have popped up stating "SR6013 has lost connection and isn't able to currently play" everything is wired to my router direct.

This is pretty aggravating. I've tried resetting my net to be sure and also cycling the receiver and see if it helped. NOPE! sure didn't. When i started the unit and tried to play it. Not only will the video not show on screen, but it won't play SXM for more than 20-30 seconds before it drops out.

If you say you've never had an issue with music cast dropping out, well. That's enough for me to make my mind up. This is frustrating.... Last night while me and the wife were watching Stranger Things, I kept seeing these red lines shoot the screen of my TV. Then audio would go out and not come back on until I'd restarted the unit. Less than a week and already issues...

Never had an issue with Music Cast dropout. Still 100% on both MusicCast and AV Controller remote app for Yamaha. They work 100% better than Denon remote app and Denon AirPlay for me. But I cannot speak for all Yamaha users.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

That's weird, I have never seen that kind of boost to any of my stuff.

When you're taking REW measurements, is the microphone at the listening position (like with Audyssey and YPAO) or is the microphone directly in front of each speaker?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I boosted the mids and bass slightly and upped the treble a little more than both. Sounds better than how audyssey had it.

It's good that you can get manual EQ to sound better than Audyssey and Direct mode.

Some people prefer Auto EQ.

Some people prefer manual EQ.

Seems like you are a candidate for manual EQ.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...Audyssey might have legit reasons to make that much of a boost considering those speakers...

...may not want Audyssey's default attempt to boost the highs of speakers that have serious dips.

....they believe the data obtained from measuring above the room transition frequency will not be reliable or meaningful, and correction made based on such data are not good, and may make things worse.

I think all Auto Room Correction, not just Audyssey, can only do SO MUCH.

And sometimes when these auto room correction software have to do so much, the end results might not be preferred.

 

[PENG]

This recent conversation here is exactly why I've been looking at mDSP and Dirac Live as a solution. Based on everything I can see, the DDRC88A/BM puts that control within reach and the only limiting factor in your set-up is the actual room layout and the channels you can assign through your AVR.
I don't think it is a golden bullet by any means, nor will it be right for everybody in every situation.
But consider that Poes and Shady have much higher opinions about Dirac than any of the other products on the market. You can dial in XOs to the number and slope you choose, so for my 25Hz Phil 3s, If I want to apply a LR4 slope starting only a half octave up at 32.5 Hz, I can.
Instead of buying a $4-5K AVP like the Monolith or Emo, plus all required amp channels (2x Monolithx7 =$3600 or 2x Emo XPA7 =$4200) you can take any of your favorite AVRs that meet your functionality requirements, and add in the necessary mDSP components and run... In my case, an SR6012 at $900, 5x Outlaw 2200 at $1500, and 2xDDRC88A/BM for $2000 and I'd be running at half the cost of those 2 AVP options plus their associated amps. I would not have the ability to assign channels how and where I choose, at least until such a time as I upgrade to another budget friendly AVR. A small price for not spending twice as much!

Regardless, considering the impact of the room and its own unique resonance/Schroeder Frequency on bass performance, then add in the complexities of different equipment including what drivers in what cabinet at what tuning at what roll-off slope... There's a reason even a $20 App doesn't always get it right.

FWIW, I did use the Marantz Graphic EQ to great effect by tuning out a small dip at 2K to tame some borderline fatigue inducing midrange brightness. I think the key is that you need to apply such things minimally and gently and they are not meant to look like the old school mid-'80s component equalizers that people would have maxed at the bass and treble and bottomed out in the mids. Frankly, that didn't work all that well then.

Have you tried the Editor App yet? I am confident that if you use the App with REW to guide you in the process, there should be nothing audibly different (better would be subjective) that Dirac Live/miniDSP can make for you. I spent many hours researching on this topic, that's how/why I become so confident.. I am fully aware of the talks about how great Dirac Live is and I don't doubt that, but when I see some of the posted graphs, I did not find a single one that looked notably flatter or smoother than the ones I managed to achieve with the help of the App/REW/Mic. I know experts (including those you mentioned) say flat is not good, but it is a good starting point, from there you can try and shape it until you like the results. Marketing hypes aside, how would/could Anthem ARC know the shape of the FR of everyone anyway. The Harman studies did show what the majority of people prefer, but majority is not 100%, not even close.

I want to try Dirac too (will do it eventually), but for different reasons, not because I believe it can improve sound quality for me. So I am not trying to discourage you. Just that if it is for sound quality, I think the $20 is worth spending so you can see it instead of going by ears 100%. Fore warning based on my own experience only: Be prepared to spend at least a couple of days to do it right and invest $100 on the mic so you can see the incremental gain or loss after each adjustment. It is a lengthy process unless the speakers and subwoofers together already behave well in the first place, then it could be over within a couple of hours, or less.

 

[PENG]

I think all Auto Room Correction, not just Audyssey, can only do SO MUCH.

And sometimes when these auto room correction software have to do so much, the end results might not be preferred.

Exactly the point I am trying to make to Ryan. Actually he knows even Dirac Live does not have the magic bullet.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I am fully aware of the talks about how great Dirac Live is and I don't doubt that, but when I see some of the posted graphs, I did not find a single one that looked notably flatter or smoother than the ones I managed to achieve with the help of the App/REW/Mic.

Let's say you used Direct Mode first.

Then used REW/mic to measure the FR.

And it showed that there was a 3dB peak at 2kHz, 2dB peak at 8kHz, 2dB peak at 12kHz.

Couldn't you use manual EQ to lower those peaks? Then use REW/Mic to measure again to see if the FR is now flat?

Theoretically, couldn't you do even a BETTER job than Dirac by using a great PEQ + REW/Mic?

 

[PENG]

Let's say you used Direct Mode first.

Then used REW/mic to measure the FR.

And it showed that there was a 3dB peak at 2kHz, 2dB peak at 8kHz, 2dB peak at 12kHz.

Couldn't you use manual EQ to lower those peaks? Then use REW/Mic to measure again to see if the FR is now flat?

You can, but the results could be worse depending on the shape of the peaks and the adjustments you made especially if you go too aggressively. Parametric EQ has adjustments for the Q factor that allows you try and smooth things off, but to lesser extents than REQ such as Audyssey and Dirac's.

I was surprised to find an article by Siemens. It seems relatively easier to read for not too technically oriented people.

https://community.plm.automation.siemens.com/t5/Testing-Knowledge-Base/Introduction-to-Filters-FIR-versus-IIR/ta-p/520959

The miniDSP one is of course more relevant to audio:

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/dsp-basics/fir-vs-iir-filtering

Theoretically, couldn't you do even a BETTER job than ANY Auto Room EQ by using a great PEQ + REW/Mic?

Based on my limited theoretical knowledge and experience I would say no, you can ask John Mulcahy (inventor or REW) and I bet even him would tell you his own (REW) are less capable, but of course in his hand it would do an excellent job, at least for the bass range.

FIRs do need raw processing power, fortunately this should no longer be an issue for the mid range and up AVRs and AVPs.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Just purchased my first Marantz product. I’d love to explain to you just how amazing this 8805 is and why it’s such a superior processor, however, I’ve yet to turn it on. It’s literally just out of box, but looks nice lol
If you wanna buy a pure processor under 15k, your options are incredibly limited.

Congrats on the new 8805.

Which McIntosh amp is that? How come you didn't also get a McIntosh Pre-pro?

So you know exactly how awesome the Marantz sounds even before turning it on, huh?

I know exactly how that is. I can do the same with my system.

 

[ryanosaur]

Exactly the point I am trying to make to Ryan. Actually he knows even Dirac Live does not have the magic bullet.

Ha! There's a reason I haven't just spent that money! (OK, a couple thousand, but... ) Even if I were to only buy one of those for my main 5 channels and subs, is it worth $1K just to choose your own XO point to within 1Hz? Yes, it does more than that, but that's one of the reasons I'm interested.
From my limited exposure to REW, I know it is way more powerful than what I've seen and been able to use, and it probably can do all the measurements that Dirac can too (if not more). The question is how do you implement those other measurements if you don't have a suitable control device to run your signal through?
For me, that could just be a $1-2K experiment.
Regardless, the focus on impulse response and phase control seem to put Dirac a step above what even the Audyssey App can do. While I think things sound good now, I do want to experiment with and learn what is actually possible with a more powerful tool.
(One last tidbit is that as I experiment and learn about Speaker Design, the DDRC-88 also become the Active Crossover for a Stereo 4-Way speaker system; something I've already been conceptualizing as I begin to build my first 2-way kit.)

Cheers!

 

[PENG]

Ha! There's a reason I haven't just spent that money! (OK, a couple thousand, but... ) Even if I were to only buy one of those for my main 5 channels and subs, is it worth $1K just to choose your own XO point to within 1Hz? Yes, it does more than that, but that's one of the reasons I'm interested.
From my limited exposure to REW, I know it is way more powerful than what I've seen and been able to use, and it probably can do all the measurements that Dirac can too (if not more). The question is how do you implement those other measurements if you don't have a suitable control device to run your signal through?
For me, that could just be a $1-2K experiment.
Regardless, the focus on impulse response and phase control seem to put Dirac a step above what even the Audyssey App can do. While I think things sound good now, I do want to experiment with and learn what is actually possible with a more powerful tool.
(One last tidbit is that as I experiment and learn about Speaker Design, the DDRC-88 also become the Active Crossover for a Stereo 4-Way speaker system; something I've already been conceptualizing as I begin to build my first 2-way kit.)

Cheers!

Been there, done that, but I guess everyone have to go through it themselves. So fair enough, I tried.. Wish you success and at least have some fun in the process.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

everyone has to go through it.

Count me out.

I don't have to go through A LOT of things.

 

[PENG]

Count me out.

I don't have to go through A LOT of things.

I don't mean go through the same things, but just same ideas. For you, it is perhaps expensive "high end" electronics and speakers.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I don't mean go through the same things, but just same ideas. For you, it is perhaps expensive "high end" electronics and speakers.

Oh, yeah, of course, count me in on going through all the good easy fun stuffs.

 

[Ken32]

Maria, from Fry's called and left a message on my phone this morning. She said that if i wanted to go ahead and place the order for the Yamaha unit I could get it for the price of 698 new and that she would also give me a free 50 dollar gift card to boot.

I'm going to place the order and see how it goes. That seems like an offer i cannot pass up. I originally wanted the 2080 but for that large of a price difference I don't feel the extra 2 channels and 30 watts is much of a difference to me to pay (considering I won't utilize that many channels at this given time.)

 

[liquid360]

Congrats on the new 8805.

Which McIntosh amp is that? How come you didn't also get a McIntosh Pre-pro?

So you know exactly how awesome the Marantz sounds even before turning it on, huh?

I know exactly how that is. I can do the same with my system.

Much thanks! I have absolutely no idea how it’ll sound. This is all entirely new to me.
The Pre-pro... I gave it so much thought and did a great deal of research. The Processor is a lot like a computer was in the early 90’s. You could buy a really really nice one, but in a year or two things had progressed so quickly that they became antiquated in no time. In the not to distant future, the advancements will slow and at that point I’ll buy into a McIntosh processor. Currently I just couldn’t rationalize it even though I really really wanted to. A stack of all McIntosh hardware is a thing of beauty IMO and I adore beautiful hardware.
Here’s my equipment list...
McIntosh MI254 (dig amp)
McIntosh MC303 (SS Amp)
McIntosh MPC500 (conditioner)
Marantz AV8805 (processor)
JL Fathom 13.5 (3000w)
B&W CCM7.5 (X2)
B&W CWM7.4 (X2)
B&W 804D2 (X2)
B&W HTM2D3 (center)
Sony VPL-VW695ES (4K projector)
Screen:
Screen Innovations Zero Edge Pro
Fixed-frame projector screen with ultra-thin frame and LED backlight, Black Diamond dark gray material (100")


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[Ken32]

It's good that you can get manual EQ to sound better than Audyssey and Direct mode.

Some people prefer Auto EQ.

Some people prefer manual EQ.

Seems like you are a candidate for manual EQ.

I definitely prefer manual. It just seems like i can bring out the best of my towers with it.

I've spent 2 hours arguing with a rep at A4L today about a problem with the SR6013.
Last night we were watching TV and all of a sudden the screen went black "SR6013 has no signal"

I've tried to reset it, nothing. I've tried unplugging it, nothing. I've tried factory resetting it under the porthole display, pissed me off. I then took all the sources i had and put them back through the TV only and guess what, it works. Even went as far as trying my old Onkyo and guess what, all worked.

I cannot get this thing to accept an input no matter what. Board issue? Sure sounds like it.

He then rambles on about how my cables aren't certified. (I never told him which cables i had to begin with) They are monoprice certified 6 ft cables for the record. I also have very nice Mediabridge cables, Sony Cables, Vizio cables etc.... I swapped out cables with the same results.

He said "They must be premium certified cables in order to work" That's a lie. I told him that I in fact had certified cables. Also, I asked him how D&M can state that's what they only recommend when they don't certify their HDMI connections. I only know of Yamaha doing so. Unless that's changed. He at that point stated "We're the largest D&M retailer, blah blah, they're the most reliable brand, blah blah, it's your cables I guaranteed it."

His name happens to be Mark Sabbarese. After our dispute and me calling him out on my cables he issues my return. What a hassle!

Needless to say I boxed it up and sent it back after they approved a return. I even made a video covering that all connections were secure and inputs were on the correct path. In case they get it back and try to act like there's nothing wrong with it. They would charge 10% restock fee, Original shipping (30 bucks) and what I'd already be out shipping back of 23 bucks. 133 dollars! I DON'T THINK SO!