Polk Audio vs. Klipsch syndrome.

[Joe B]

Your point was not as clear as you thought. I read "your content doesn’t reach lower than 40" as meaning the content I listen to as stated in post #131. That's what started this ball rolling.
Enjoy your music. That is what it's all about. How you do it is up to you.

 

[KEW]

You've gotten good answers.
I'd say (which is consistent with what others have said) it depends on:
1) What types of music you listen to
2) How much bass the bookshelf speakers are capable of
3) How much room gain you get
4) How much you are willing to invest to add subwoofers

On the last point, if you are willing to spend the money on a high quality subwoofer and invest the time to tune them using tools like miniDSP and REW to get it right, that is a requirement to get a subwoofer integrated into your system.

Even then, there are some recordings where it seems as if the mixing engineer did not use a subwoofer and was unaware of content on the lower frequencies that can ruin the music (i'll offer Eric Clapton - Unplugged as an example, the recording quality is otherwise extremely good). It sounds great on my PC system or using typical bookshelf speakers without a sub.

So I believe there is something to be said for a 2.0 system depending on the situation.

My ideal system includes the option to omit the subwoofer. I turn it down from Audyssey's setting for music because there are many recordings that are recorded bass heavy (I'm not so anal as to adjust it for every song, so I am willing to be a little lean on bass for the well recorded songs in order to tone down the heavy bass of poor recordings). I turn it up for a HT action flick because I enjoy the effects. With my Denon, I can associate a specific configuration of settings with each input, so while I use my Oppo for both music and HT, I feed the Toslink to the CD input and the HDMI to the DVD input on the Denon. I suspect Yamaha, Onkyo, etc may have this feature as well.

I do wish AVR's had a subwoofer volume control immediately available on the RC (without having to go into the setup menu).

 

[Joe B]

I do wish AVR's had a subwoofer volume control immediately available on the RC (without having to go into the setup menu).

The "Level" button (top right of remote) allows me to adjust either the sub, fronts, center, or surrounds on the fly.....very convenient if needed.

 

[Ridire Fáin]

To anyone in the forum especially the audiophiles out there. For someone using bookshelf speakers for just music no matter what brand of speaker whether they be Klipsch, Polk, Philharmonics or Ascend or any high end or top of the line type etc, do you think a subwoofer is necessary?

It depends on your musical tastes and listening environment.

What types of music do you listen to?
In my wife's system ( An old school 2 channel receiver and speaker set up) we are using a sub to get the extension on the classical and pop music she listens too. The little 8 inch woofers she has just do not move enough air to get the slam so I augmented with an 10 inch powered sub. As for my program material I need a sub, Techno, Organ music, Taiko Drum, Movie Sound Tracks, and such have a lot of musical content below 40 HZ.

How big is you listening room?
Will you disturb you neighbors?
Listening environment can also be a factor.
--- One a consideration to implementing a sub is the bass output going to bother your neighbors.
--- Second is room size a 20 HZ note has a wavelength of 56 feet, so it is debatable if you can hear it in an small room. Most likely you will hear something, but a huge sub placed in a small room can dominate the sound so all you hear is bass but no music.

Wrapping up:
--- If you listen to small scale singer writer, jazz, and acoustic type stuff you will probably be fine without one. Most music does not have much below 40hz.

--- If you listen to dynamic music with a large amount of program material in the 30hz and below range you will benefit from an carefully selected and integrated sub. Just make sure it's (output wise) in the goldilocks zone for your room. Too small, you will go where is the bass? Too big, you will get nothing but boom.

 

[KEW]

The "Level" button (top right of remote) allows me to adjust either the sub, fronts, center, or surrounds on the fly.....very convenient if needed.

Cool!
I really hope this is adopted by more companies. You shouldn't have to give Anthem type money to get this.
As far as I know, the only other unit that has this is the Klipsch Powergate (integrated BT amp) and the Klipsch powered speakers (like R-28PF, or the Sixes):

 

[Kvn_Walker]

I think you've reached the point where you need to start buying and listening to speakers. It's impossible for us to know how much bass you perceive to be enough.

You should check what return policies are at different places and buy some speakers with risk-free trials.

This list is kind of old, but it might get you some ideas of speakers you would want to try.

https://www.audioholics.com/how-to-shop/internet-direct-comparison

 

[KEW]

What is your budget?
Among bookshelfs, the BMR is a stand-out for value, providing great SQ per dollar and as much bass as you can expect from a bookshelf. However, I don't know why you are buying a bookshelf, and the BMR is a very large bookshelf speaker. Similarly, the Affordable Accuracy is a class leader in SQ and bass extension for its price.
If you know you want neutral and accurate sound, I would get whichever best fits your budget, then decide if you need a sub.
If you need a sub with either of these speakers, I think it is very safe to say you would need a sub with any bookshelf speaker you might buy, so there would be no regrets on that count.

A little advise:
Some speakers are designed with extra emphasis on bass to off-set the lack of extension. One of these speakers may be more gratifying to you than the Philharmonic options (which are neutral through the bass they produce). Just be aware of that possibility as you are listening.
Some companies, such as DefTech and Canton (to name two), exaggerate their frequency range. By most accounts, both are competent speakers; however if you are looking for a speaker with deep bass, these will look good on paper, but be lacking in actual performance. If that is a major criteria in your search try to find reviews with test charts, or ask here. If a 6 inch woofer claims to produce 24Hz, something is not right!
If you decide you need a sub, and money is tight, you will be able to get away with a cheaper sub if you do not worry about playing a 16Hz organ note. A sub that rolls off around 35 Hz in an anechoic chamber will likely get into the upper mid-20Hz range after room gain. A sub like this will fill in a lot and save the speaker from playing notes that push its limits. It will cost a lot more if you start chasing those very rare lowest notes. I am linking to this sub because it is currently $190. When that sale is over, it is no longer a good option.
https://www.jbl.com/SUB+550PBK.html?mrkgcl=741&mrkgadid=3305175206&utm_campaign=Con|Text|Products&utm_medium=paid-search&utm_source=Google&utm_term=sub_550p&utm_content=SUB+550P&adpos=1t1&creative=312519824396&device=c&matchtype=e&network=g&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6dLgBRDoARIsAJgoM4uJaiJUNyE66qfH9XEtfpyFWyNDTErrDdyVQffJ54jwMJL2LXpZQ-caAokoEALw_wcB

 

[snakeeyes]

[QUOTE="KEW, post: 1287510,
I do wish AVR's had a subwoofer volume control immediately available on the RC (without having to go into the setup menu).[/QUOTE]

This is on Yamahas on the remote control app for smartphone or tablet (Apple or Android). You can adjust the sub level on the fly on the app.

 

[snakeeyes]

I don’t think I could do without a sub. I would actually make subs a major part of the budget when building a system. I realize people make compromises to stay on budget but the sub is critical. It would be like food with no salt.

 

[Russdawg1]

I don’t think I could do without a sub. I would actually make subs a major part of the budget when building a system. I realize people make compromises to stay on budget but the sub is critical. It would be like food with no salt.

Some food tastes fantastic without salt

 

[LamontSim]

What is your budget?
Among bookshelfs, the BMR is a stand-out for value, providing great SQ per dollar and as much bass as you can expect from a bookshelf. However, I don't know why you are buying a bookshelf, and the BMR is a very large bookshelf speaker. Similarly, the Affordable Accuracy is a class leader in SQ and bass extension for its price.
If you know you want neutral and accurate sound, I would get whichever best fits your budget, then decide if you need a sub.
If you need a sub with either of these speakers, I think it is very safe to say you would need a sub with any bookshelf speaker you might buy, so there would be no regrets on that count.

A little advise:
Some speakers are designed with extra emphasis on bass to off-set the lack of extension. One of these speakers may be more gratifying to you than the Philharmonic options (which are neutral through the bass they produce). Just be aware of that possibility as you are listening.
Some companies, such as DefTech and Canton (to name two), exaggerate their frequency range. By most accounts, both are competent speakers; however if you are looking for a speaker with deep bass, these will look good on paper, but be lacking in actual performance. If that is a major criteria in your search try to find reviews with test charts, or ask here. If a 6 inch woofer claims to produce 24Hz, something is not right!
If you decide you need a sub, and money is tight, you will be able to get away with a cheaper sub if you do not worry about playing a 16Hz organ note. A sub that rolls off around 35 Hz in an anechoic chamber will likely get into the upper mid-20Hz range after room gain. A sub like this will fill in a lot and save the speaker from playing notes that push its limits. It will cost a lot more if you start chasing those very rare lowest notes. I am linking to this sub because it is currently $190. When that sale is over, it is no longer a good option.
https://www.jbl.com/SUB+550PBK.html?mrkgcl=741&mrkgadid=3305175206&utm_campaign=Con|Text|Products&utm_medium=paid-search&utm_source=Google&utm_term=sub_550p&utm_content=SUB+550P&adpos=1t1&creative=312519824396&device=c&matchtype=e&network=g&gclid=Cj0KCQiA6dLgBRDoARIsAJgoM4uJaiJUNyE66qfH9XEtfpyFWyNDTErrDdyVQffJ54jwMJL2LXpZQ-caAokoEALw_wcB

Thanks a lot for the reply. I'm actually trying to decide between the AA+ or the Ascend 170's.

 

[LamontSim]

But I stated that I or someone that doesn’t listen to material that doesn’t extend below 40hz so I think my point was well justified. LamontSim has not stated what content other than “music” so we don’t know whether a sub is justified or not. Maybe he listens to jazz or classical piano and has no need for a subwoofer. If he listens to rap, organ, rock, then yes a subwoofer is plenty justified but its all about the person’s needs.

Pinot well taken. As I stated before, my musical preferences are R&B, Soul, Funk, Disco, Rock, Alternative Rock, Alternative, Pop and some Jazz. No offense to those who are but no Classical or piano type music. That's just me.

 

[LamontSim]

Pinot well taken. As I stated before, my musical preferences are R&B, Soul, Funk, Disco, Rock, Alternative Rock, Alternative, Pop and some Jazz. No offense to those who are but no Classical or piano type music. That's just me.

Point well taken.

 

[LamontSim]

Pinot well taken. As I stated before, my musical preferences are R&B, Soul, Funk, Disco, Rock, Alternative Rock, Alternative, Pop and some Jazz. No offense to those who are but no Classical or piano type music. That's just me.

Point well taken.

 

[LamontSim]

With this music genre listed, do you still think I'd need a sub?

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

With this music genre listed, do you still think I'd need a sub?

Yeah I would say so. Just the R&B and soul would constitute one for me. Not to mention funk, which uses a LOT of bass guitar. Just makes sense to me.

 

[LamontSim]

Someone out there tell me this. When most speaker manufacturers make a speaker and they along with reviewers and audiophiles audition with music, do any of these makers of speakers produce a product for those who indulge in R&B or what some would categorize as black music? Not trying to be offensive and definitely not racist, but does anyone design a speaker with that musical preference in mind?

 

[Russdawg1]

Thanks a lot for the reply. I'm actually trying to decide between the AA+ or the Ascend 170's.

With the AA+ Monitors by Philharmonic Audio, you will not need a sub IMO. I know plenty of people who have them and almost all of them say the bass is so strong and extends so low that you will not need a subwoofer. They have usable output down to 34hz and it really shows. Why don’t you buy one of them and then decide whether you would like a sub or not.

 

[KEW]

Someone out there tell me this. When most speaker manufacturers make a speaker and they along with reviewers and audiophiles audition with music, do any of these makers of speakers produce a product for those who indulge in R&B or what some would categorize as black music? Not trying to be offensive and definitely not racist, but does anyone design a speaker with that musical preference in mind?

I don't think so. The objective of a speaker is (from my point of view) to faithfully reproduce the sound as the musician intended it. If you start tailoring the sound at the speaker, you are not staying true to what the musician (and by extension the recording engineer) intended!
It is true that some venues of music require different FR's.

Try out the AA's!
I usually listen to mine without a subwoofer. When i first got them I had to double check that the sub was not on (I was wanting to evaluate the speaker alone). They far out perform my RBH 61lse for bass and the only 6" woofer I have heard with deeper bass was the Paradigm signature S2 (something like $3500/pr).
Will you be happy with the bass from them? I'd bet yes. Unless you are coming from experience with very good sound systems, the bass of the AA's will blow you away! It is deeper and cleaner than what you normally run into!

I did compare the AA's (not with the new tweeter) against the Ascend 340. I liked the AA's better. Different people have different preferences. I don't remember what it was I liked better and will see if I can find my notes (but I'm not as organized as I would like).
However, given the improved tweeters in the AA's, I would encourage you to get the AA's before letting a coin toss decide!

 

[LamontSim]

I don't think so. The objective of a speaker is (from my point of view) to faithfully reproduce the sound as the musician intended it. If you start tailoring the sound at the speaker, you are not staying true to what the musician (and by extension the recording engineer) intended!
It is true that some venues of music require different FR's.

Try out the AA's!
I usually listen to mine without a subwoofer. When i first got them I had to double check that the sub was not on (I was wanting to evaluate the speaker alone). They far out perform my RBH 61lse for bass and the only 6" woofer I have heard with deeper bass was the Paradigm signature S2 (something like $3500/pr).
Will you be happy with the bass from them? I'd bet yes. Unless you are coming from experience with very good sound systems, the bass of the AA's will blow you away! It is deeper and cleaner than what you normally run into!

I did compare the AA's (not with the new tweeter) against the Ascend 340. I liked the AA's better. Different people have different preferences. I don't remember what it was I liked better and will see if I can find my notes (but I'm not as organized as I would like).
However, given the improved tweeters in the AA's, I would encourage you to get the AA's before letting a coin toss decide!

Any info about the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 SE? When I looked at the specs on the Phil AA+, the sensitivity rating was about 84 or 85 dB. Isn't that kind of low?