Impressions on Crown XLi vs XLS for Hi-Fi mains

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Almost everyone likes the XLS. The only criticism it occasionally gets is regarding less soundstage width & depth. What is your opinion on that?

I thought the soundstage width/depth/height was equivalent to the other amps.

Nothing stood out that would lead me to believe differently.

 

[kanebane]

Where does this soundstage/width/depth talk come into the discussion of amps (or this amp)?

You don't believe soundstage is important for a amplifier?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You don't believe soundstage is important for a amplifier?

I think he means that you should take those opinions regarding the amp's soundstage with a huge grain of salt.

 

[everettT]

Specs for the ITECH that comes with M2 JBLs

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/i-tech-5000hd

 

[lovinthehd]

You don't believe soundstage is important for a amplifier?

That might depend on what you're trying to describe. I usually refer to speakers or a recording as how soundstage comes into the picture...

 

[Verdinut]

Soundstage/width/depth have to do with the dispersion of loudspeaker sound and acoustic characteristics of a recording but nothing related to amplifiers.

Amplifiers only magnify the audio signal voltage to a level necessary to drive a speaker.

 

[PENG]

Soundstage/width/depth have to do with the dispersion of loudspeaker sound and acoustic characteristics of a recording but nothing related to amplifiers.

Amplifiers only magnify the audio signal voltage to a level necessary to drive a speaker.

Agree, amps that mess up soundstage must be really poorly designed, dirt cheap or defective.

 

[kanebane]

Soundstage/width/depth have to do with the dispersion of loudspeaker sound and acoustic characteristics of a recording but nothing related to amplifiers.

Amplifiers only magnify the audio signal voltage to a level necessary to drive a speaker.

Loudspeakers & room acoustics are far too dominant in rendering of the soundstage width & depth. And from that point, it is very important to choose a loudspeaker according to one's taste & treat the room accordingly.

But different amplifiers driving a good quality speaker in a well treated room can produce very subtle differences in soundstage. Amplifiers do sound different but it is very subtle. Things get pretty subjective at that point and yes other people's opinion, specially that of commercial reviewers should be taken with a grain of salt.

An ideal amplifier driving a test load resistor magnifies only the audio signal. But a speaker with passive crossovers is a complex load that not all practical amplifiers handle the same way. Depending upon amplifier-speakers compatibility imaging might be slightly & subtly different.

PENG, not talking about 'messing' soundstage.

 

[Verdinut]

Passive crossovers have nothing to do with a complex load which only relates to the low impedance and the phase angle response of a loudspeaker.

If an amplifier cannot handle that kind of complex load, it simply means that its power supply is limited and can't provide the necessary amperage and stability to handle such a load.

 

[PENG]

PENG, not talking about 'messing' soundstage.

My comments referred to your post#39. You stated:

The only criticism it occasionally gets is regarding less soundstage width & depth. What is your opinion on that?

So whoever offered that criticism seemed to claim that the amp was the cause. What you stated in post#48 sounds reasonable. Still, what is a "subtle difference" to a lot of people could mean no difference to a lot of other people as well. For me, my original comment still stands, but I will use clearer wording. Instead of using the term"mess up....", I would say if the amp would cause "less soundstage width and depth", I don't want it even if it is free, or if the speaker being driven is the issue then I wouldn't want that speaker either.

There are so many choices, it is not hard to stay out of trouble. The effects on sound stage by moving my head a few inches are audible and measurable, but not so if I just swap amps, including one pro amp that costs C$299 (reg. C$499). I think if people worry about sound stage related issues, they should focus more on their speakers, placement, the room, and the quality of the recordings. That's just my two cents.

 

[kanebane]

Passive crossovers have nothing to do with a complex load which only relates to the low impedance and the phase angle response of a loudspeaker.

Phase angle of a loudspeaker depends on the passive crossover
Yes, power supply may be limited on some amplifiers but the output stage of an amplifier has current limits as well and in such cases a Godzilla size power supply won't help either.

PENG,

There is a long thread " Crown XLS for rest of us" in Audio circle, where they managed an XLS 1500 tour to several forum members and mostly compared it against the very highly rated Hypex Ncore NC400! So, overall there were lots of reviews (around 15) and most people loved the amplifier very much. There were a few criticisms regarding the soundstage width and depth compared to Ncore and other so called "audiophile" amps in their own system. This is an observation not every reviewer had, obviously because their systems were fundamentally very different. So, I asked ADTG his opinion as well, as he seems to have experience with lots of different amps & speakers. Thats all.

 

[KEW]

Phase angle of a loudspeaker depends on the passive crossover
Yes, power supply may be limited on some amplifiers but the output stage of an amplifier has current limits as well and in such cases a Godzilla size power supply won't help either.

PENG,

There is a long thread " Crown XLS for rest of us" in Audio circle, where they managed an XLS 1500 tour to several forum members and mostly compared it against the very highly rated Hypex Ncore NC400! So, overall there were lots of reviews (around 15) and most people loved the amplifier very much. There were a few criticisms regarding the soundstage width and depth compared to Ncore and other so called "audiophile" amps in their own system. This is an observation not every reviewer had, obviously because their systems were fundamentally very different. So, I asked ADTG his opinion as well, as he seems to have experience with lots of different amps & speakers. Thats all.

That thread would be useful if it involved double-blind testing so bias is not a consideration. However, if you know one costs 2-5 times more and especially have been reading so many articles talking about how this or that amp made an amazing change in the SQ, it is easy to believe you hear a difference.
There have been some properly performed experiments and people who claimed to hear differences and were willing to "prove" it could not consistently select their preferred amplifier (unless they knew which one it was during the trials)! In a way, you could say it "looked like it sounded better"!

 

[kanebane]

Specs for the ITECH that comes with M2 JBLs

https://www.crownaudio.com/en/products/i-tech-5000hd

How deceptive is the fact that they have classified that amp as a 'tour amp' only when M2 is one of the highest rated studio speakers and is not sold without the amplifier.

I guess you want us to show us the rated IMD is high as well (0.2%) despite it being a very high grade amplifier.

It could be misleading because different data can be shown for same amp where tests conditions are not same.

Say for example at 0.1 %THD rated full output, SMPTE IMD = 0.2 %

But if they rate that amplifier's full output power at 0.01% THD, the total rated output will be lower but IMD may be ~ 0.01% as well.

Ratings such as
1. 1250W @ 8 Ohms, 0.1%THD, 0.2% THD
2. 1000W @ 8 Ohms, 0.01% THD, 0.01% THD

might be for exactly the same amplifier.

For lack of test data, I would like to assume that XLS & XLi series amps rated at 500W, 0.5%THD, 0.3%IMD can be rated as 400W, 0.05%THD, 0.05%IMD.

I love Yamaha's somewhat detailed specifications.
Emotiva will email you detailed independent lab test reports if you ask them.
Wish Crown were more helpful with their specs sheets.

 

[kanebane]

That thread would be useful if it involved double-blind testing so bias is not a consideration. However, if you know one costs 2-5 times more and especially have been reading so many articles talking about how this or that amp made an amazing change in the SQ, it is easy to believe you hear a difference.
There have been some properly performed experiments and people who claimed to hear differences and were willing to "prove" it could not consistently select their preferred amplifier (unless they knew which one it was during the trials)! In a way, you could say it "looked like it sounded better"!

Yes, so true. The guy who borrowed a $400 crown amp to compare with his own $2000 amplifier might be psychologically biased because he does not want to believe that his money went down the drain!! So, double-blind tests would really help to determine which amps actually 'sound' different rather than just 'seem' different.

 

[kanebane]

http://www.joinaudio.cn/product/60680130364-805061890/Popular_China_cheapest_Crown_XLi_Power_amplifier_with_good_quality_for_musician_DJ.html

This one appears like OEM for XLi series.
Internal components appears same.
XLS should not be available like this because it uses patented Drivecore components.

 

[lovinthehd]

Just checked out a bit of that Audiocircle thread. Cryo'ing the amps? Breakin of hundreds of hours? Lots of woo or what?

 

[PENG]

I guess you want us to show us the rated IMD is high as well (0.2%) despite it being a very high grade amplifier.

I am confused, when you said "I guess you want us.............." are you implying that you work for Crown audio?

Ratings such as
1. 1250W @ 8 Ohms, 0.1%THD, 0.2% THD
2. 1000W @ 8 Ohms, 0.01% THD, 0.01% THD

might be for exactly the same amplifier.

True, may be. So I guess may be they prefer to show a higher rated output by setting a higher targeted THD+N and IMD, fair enough.

For lack of test data, I would like to assume that XLS & XLi series amps rated at 500W, 0.5%THD, 0.3%IMD can be rated as 400W, 0.05%THD, 0.05%IMD.

I agree, but too bad we have to "assume" and yet have no basis or reference to help predict how much the output would drop going from 0.5% to 0.01% THD, because no one seems to be able to find any bench test results for the popular XLS amps. It really would be nice if we can convince Gene to bench test one or two pro amps.
Something like what he did on the AVR-X3300W would be great, or what S&V did on the 140W 0.05% THD rated Denon below would be the minimum.

https://www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x3300w-1/measurements

"with two channels driving 8-ohm loads, reached 0.1% distortion at 198.6 watts and 1% distortion at 218.9 watts. The distortion level remained at or below 0.002% across all power levels until it reached about 165 watts. Into 4 ohms, the amplifier reached 0.1% distortion at 298.0 watts and 1% distortion at 343.4 watts."

Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4308ci-av-receiver-measurements#IPSAGakKRwtoD6G8.99

 

[PENG]

Phase angle of a loudspeaker depends on the passive crossover
Yes, power supply may be limited on some amplifiers but the output stage of an amplifier has current limits as well and in such cases a Godzilla size power supply won't help either.

That does not seem relevant to Verdinut's point, but for clarity, the phase angle depends not only on the passive crossover, but also the drivers.

 

[PENG]

I thought it might help to clarify some technical terms being used on this thread. In electrical terms, there are active load and passive load, reactance, resistance and impedance. Impedance can include reactance and resistance, and when it does, the value can be expressed in a complex number form that has the magnitude and phase components.

A typical loudspeaker can be considered an active load, a passive crossover on its own is not. The term "complex load" is used almost (I don't see it being accepted to the same degree yet) like how the term "RMS" power is used. By now most on this forum should know there is no such thing as "RMS power", but when people refer to that term, they actually meant "average power". So I assume when someone says "complex load", they probably meant a load that involves any combinations of inductors, capacitors, and with or without resistors and that it does not involve active devices transistors. If they do mean to include transistors, loudspeaker drivers especially woofers and mid range drivers etc., then they should probably use the term "active load".

 

[Verdinut]

@PENG

Oh, I had forgotten about the fact that a passive crossover does affect the phase angle curve of a loudspeaker.
After building some passive crossovers, I did notice that they will modify the phase angle response of the driver, but this alteration mostly occurs around the filter frequency. The higher the order of the filter, the greater the phase shift.
In addition, a vented box will also modify the phase curve.