Marantz SR 6012 for $750.00 open box

P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I actually found one on Amazon!
I have no use for it, but it does look nice. Interestingly you can buy with 5 day shipping for $485 or you can buy for $400 if you are willing to wait ~3 weeks for it to arrive from Japan:
https://www.amazon.com/Integrated-Amplifier-50-60Hz-PMA-390RESP-Japanese/dp/B0089K5KIK/ref=sr_1_3?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1520117030&sr=1-3&keywords=denon+pma-50#customerReviews
You can find that one in NA because it's an entry level one. Try something like this

https://www.ebay.com/itm/DENON-PMA-SX1-Integrated-Amplifier-Unopened-goods-Audio-Japan-F-Shipping/253418014440?hash=item3b00e406e8:g:1qwAAOSwgGFafWO8
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Wow, that is outrageous! $8400 and all you get is two knobs and an on-off button!:eek:;)
I wonder who will buy something like that, same for the Marantz equivalents, just not as bad. I bet even Nelson Pass would shake his head.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
But seriously I may buy this 180 W Denon for under 1k if in great conditions, for the useless +/- 300 volt/microsecond slew rate and 75 lbs weight.

http://audio-database.com/DENON-COLUMBIA/amp/poa-3000-e.html

About 3 to 4k back in 1979 I guess..
It's definitely an interesting amplifier, but I have a serious question.

Denon brag about this POA-3000 as being a Class A amplifier, but they add:

"In order to solve the lowness of efficiency and the problem of generation of heat and enlargement which were the faults of Class-A amplifier, the real bias circuit is adopted"

I may be wrong but to me, this looks like marketing BS. The output transistors operate in push-pull and I strongly believe that it simply is a Class AB amp that operates in Class A at low power and changes to Class B at higher output currents, like most Class AB amps.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
It's definitely an interesting amplifier, but I have a serious question.

Denon brag about this POA-3000 as being a Class A amplifier, but they add:

"In order to solve the lowness of efficiency and the problem of generation of heat and enlargement which were the faults of Class-A amplifier, the real bias circuit is adopted"

I may be wrong but to me, this looks like marketing BS. The output transistors operate in push-pull and I strongly believe that it simply is a Class AB amp that operates in Class A at low power and changes to Class B at higher output currents, like most Class AB amps.
I agree, but to be more precise, a real class AB amp should not operate in class B at or below it's rated output. There is that hearsay going on that class AB amp operates in class B even at well below rated output is false. By definition class AB means the bias is high enough to ensure an overlap, like the "all red" traffic lights at 4 way intersections.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Be honest!
It's really all about those humongous meters isn't it!?



That and the 200 "dumping" factor (according to the link you provided).

Right! I need the D to match my M.


SM7_Copy.jpg
 
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E

<eargiant

Senior Audioholic
Right! I need the D to match my M.


View attachment 23666
Something tells me the POA-3000 and SM-7 will not sound as similar as some D&M products sound when compared to each other today. Back then a lot of these companies were experimenting and often had different outcomes.

Today it seems like some of these brands are a shadow of their former selves. All consolidated with redundancies between brands and shareholder value being the primary objective. Often, the primary difference today with some (not all) of these consolidated brands at a specific price-point is the brand sticker on the faceplate.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
I agree, but to be more precise, a real class AB amp should not operate in class B at or below it's rated output. There is that hearsay going on that class AB amp operates in class B even at well below rated output is false. By definition class AB means the bias is high enough to ensure an overlap, like the "all red" traffic lights at 4 way intersections.
Most articles that explain the operation of a Class AB amp indicate that it works in Class B at higher output currents:

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/amplifier/class-ab-amplifier.html

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Scots_Guide/audio/part2/page3.html
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Be honest!
It's really all about those humongous meters isn't it!?



That and the 200 "dumping" factor (according to the link you provided).
They are appealing but if you can't adjust the output scale for the meters, they become useless because you will never see much movement of the needles at the SPL normally played in a standard size listening room, unless you have very inefficient speakers, and even so.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
They are appealing but if you can't adjust the output scale for the meters, they become useless because you will never see much movement of the needles at the SPL normally played in a standard size listening room, unless you have very inefficient speakers, and even so.
Not really, they do deflect quite a bit due to the music peaks and log scale. Even outputting fractional watts on average as it is for me, the needle would still move pass the mid point quite often.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You forgot to mention apparent build quality.

Anyway, I bet a fully restored POA-3000 would sound better than my Denon AVR-3803 or Yamaha A-S801:D.
Yes it has a lot to do with build quality for sure, 1000 VA transformer and 100,000 uf for a 180 W amp do indicate serious quality.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Most articles that explain the operation of a Class AB amp indicate that it works in Class B at higher output currents:

https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/amplifier/class-ab-amplifier.html

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~jcgl/Scots_Guide/audio/part2/page3.html
Those two linked articles are in fact among the ones I referred to that help spread the misconception, not by intention for sure. They are obviously right as well, but their wording, could easily lead people to take them out of context.

"For larger signals, one transistor will become non-conducting and the other will supply the current required by the load. Hence for large signals the circuit behaves like a Class B amplifier."

Read the bold wording I quoted them above, and you will know what I meant. As you must agree, Class AB amps are biased to always have a small overlapping conduction angle (like the traffic light "all red state") right? So that means for the most part, one transistor will in fact become non-contacting. That's why the word "behaves..." were used but no, they didn't mean to say they behave the same as a class B amplifier and I am quite sure about that. It is like saying some times he/she behaves like a boss, is not the same as saying he/she is the boss.

A Class B amplifier by definition does not have the overlapping conduction angle, each transistor of the pair conducts 180 degrees, that is it.

I actually wanted to preemptive this very point you just made but I was out at the time, typing on my little Android phone so I didn't bother. I do thank you for the opportunity to clarify my point.

By the way, not all class AB amp are biased to behave like class A amp even at very low (but meaningful) output level either. That is another misconception.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Not really, they do deflect quite a bit due to the music peaks and log scale. Even outputting fractional watts on average as it is for me, the needle would still move pass the mid point quite often.
Several years ago, I had a Phase Linear 400 power amp and I never saw the needles move. I was driving highly efficient Altec A7 VOTT transducers with it.
 
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J

Jason55

Audioholic Intern
You old AppleTV is not 4k capable anyway so why not just connect it to the receiver. You 4K TV must have multiple HDMI inputs so other 4K sources can connect to that directly.

For audio, the optical audio output from the TV to the receiver should work. If you don't have sound then you need to check you receiver's settings. AppleTV also has an optical audio output so you can use that too. If you want to watch 4K program from AppleTV then yes you need to get a new one.
This is the way I have it set up right now. I replicated what I had with the old tv so not sure why no sound through the AVR:

HDMI from Apple TV to TV

HDMI from AVR to TV

Optical from tv to AVR

I will connect the Apple TV hdmi directly to the avr as you suggested. Thanks
 
J

Jason55

Audioholic Intern
@Kai, thanks for the comments. Looks like you’re sole person recommending the open box Marantz. I’m trying to figure out whether I need to upgrade my avr in the first place. If my sources are online - for example Netflix is being streamed through my WiFi directly to the TV; presumably I can do the same with prime video, and if I upgrade my Apple TV to 4k then do I really need a new avr?

Or am I missing something?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
@Kai, thanks for the comments. Looks like you’re sole person recommending the open box Marantz. I’m trying to figure out whether I need to upgrade my avr in the first place. If my sources are online - for example Netflix is being streamed through my WiFi directly to the TV; presumably I can do the same with prime video, and if I upgrade my Apple TV to 4k then do I really need a new avr?

Or am I missing something?
I answered your question in post#10 (the last paragraph), you don't need a new AVR as such. @lovinthehd did point out some minor inconvenience using the get around solution, that is, using HDMI splitter, optical digital audio, HDMI ARC etc. I thought he mentioned it on this thread but I could not find it now so may be it was in a different thread.
 

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