Need advice picking 5.1 system with 1500 budget

[TD4W]

I have a fairly large living room roughly 18' x 18' with cathedral ceilings and is open to the kitchen and living room. I've attached some pics of how I intend to place the speakers. House should be finished being built in 8 weeks so I'm trying to decide on the right system. I'm trying to keep the surrounds on the smaller size as to not be an eyesore and to keep the wife happy, but at the same time I have a lot of room to fill with sound, so that is the dilemma. My plan right now is:

Onkyo TX-NR656 (room to grow)
(1) def. tech PC2000
(4) def. tech PM1000
and a sub. maybe svs sb12

I may end up having to just live with the def.tech sub for a while to get a better package deal on the center and monitors to stay in budget.

I was also considering the ELAC debut 5.1, for similar money, since the reviews are great, but this set-up is no where near as good looking or desecrate. Seems this set-up would have a lot more sound (assumption do to larger speakers) but I have no experience with either this or the def.tech.

Side question, dolby atmos, is it worth setting up the receiver for atmos if you don't intend to ever install overhead speakers? I'm not sure I'm really sold on this technology over a decent 5.1 set-up but I'm curious.

I'd love some feed back on my selection and other options. I've been out of the audio scene for over 15 years so I have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[-Jim-]

Welcome to the Forum. Most folks here will advise you to move towards a Denon /Marantz or Yamaha Receiver. I personally would add Sony to that list (as I've had good success there over the years), but in general avoid Onkyo due to recent issues, and also Pioneer as they were recently purchased by Onkyo.

IMHO it's best not to scrimp on your speakers but if you need to move up in stages, that makes sense.

I'm assuming you can still run the speaker cables in the walls, so even though I'm not into Atmos either, for the extra couple of dollars, I'd pull in cables now and leave them unexposed behind the drywall. I'd just document where they are for the future in case you change your mind.

 

[MrBoat]

Explain to your wife that, the more kickass gear you put in your "living" room, the more people will want to actually "live" there. Otherwise, they would be called "looking rooms."

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

1) On your (tbh) very modest budget you should focus first of all on 3.1, avr second, surround/effect speakers last.
2) If design/waf is more important that performance - this will especially will limited choices due to limited budget.
3) Your 3D renders are real nice, but to properly select sub you should know entire volume of space you're planning to use sub in. IE: Sub doesn't "know" the limits of your "viewing area" or room, it sees entire open space. Sb12 is nice subs but something tells me - you've selected it due to it's size, not other factors.
4) I agree with Jim, Onkyo and Defteks wouldn't be my first choice (bare in mind I am onkyo avr owner).
See your speakers measured here: https://www.soundandvision.com/content/definitive-technology-procinema-1000-speaker-system-and-pioneer-elite-vsx-84txsi-av-receiv-0
If you don't understand it - no issue - I'll tell you that purple line should've been much much more straight for speakers to play music/video as it was intended, not some their own interpretation.
5) Denon/Marantz are ones I'd suggest to you as Jim mention due to simply much better auto room calibration system
6) These bookshelf speakers which may pass the WAF test and still sound better than defteks
https://rbhsound.com/r5bi.php
7) You'd be much better off with going in wall speakers for LCRs than to compromise on performance due it's looks

 

[zieglj01]

3.1 is a good way to start

If your going to mount on the wall - then look at NHT SuperOne 2.1 -- they are sealed -- buy 3 each and use one as a center channel
http://www.nhthifi.com/products/10658-nht-superone-2-1

save up for small rears -- SuperZero 2.1
http://www.nhthifi.com/products/10654-superzero-2-1-our-amazing-mini-monitor?category_id=1964852-satellite-speakers

A inwall option if you desire -- JBL Studio 2
https://www.worldwidestereo.com/products/jbl-studio-2-6iw-6-5-premium-in-wall-loudspeaker-each-studio26iw?via=56017f1bf7430b7cef000127,561d8c211dfc827b5f000345,56017f1bf7430b7cef00013b

https://www.worldwidestereo.com/products/jbl-studio-2-55iw-2x5-25-premium-in-wall-loudspeaker-each-studio255iw?via=56017f1bf7430b7cef000127,561d8c211dfc827b5f000345,56017f1bf7430b7cef00013b

subwoofer -- Look at HSU
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk5.html

Receiver Yamaha for now -- and new in the box -- move it to a second room later
http://www.accessories4less.com/make-a-store/item/yamtsr6750bla/yamaha-tsr-6750-7.2-ch-x-90-watts-a/v-receiver-same-as-rx-v675/1.html

 

[Pogre]

You're getting great suggestions. Another thing to consider, as it sounds like you have a similar space to mine, is getting a second subwoofer. I like Zieg's suggestion for Hsu. If it were me, I'd find out exactly how much sub you might need and buy one now, then plan on a second somewhere down the road.

Some room measurements so we can at least get an estimate of how many cubic feet you need to pressurize (including all areas open to the living room, your subs "sees" the entire space) would help in determining what you might need for a sub(s). FWIW I'm using 2 VTF-3 MK5 HD's (big brother to the VTF-2 MK5 Zieg suggested). That's a lot of money to me, but I don't regret the purchase one bit. Good subwoofage is often underrated.

I also agree with focusing the budget on your front 3 and getting surrounds later.

 

[shadyJ]

I would look at getting in-wall speakers. Since it looks like you will be mounting the speakers flush against the wall, that eliminates many of the advantages of standalone bookshelf speakers. Give your speakers some room to breath. Look at these mounts, at least they won't be mounted right up against the wall. The JBL Studios are good, the Hsu sub is great too as are their speakers, and the RBH R5bi bookshelf speakers look good too, as does NHT. All good suggestions, but the problem is intended placement. You might as well be looking for in-wall speakers.

 

[KlipschFTW]

I have a denon avr, klipsch bookshelf speakers and klipsch sub for $800 on the classifieds

 

[TD4W]

Thanks for all the great suggestions. I have a bunch of homework to do here for sure.

Receiver - Denon or Marantz, Ill start looking into both of these for an option.
I'd be alright with starting with a 3.1 to start if it meant getting better quality equipment. I can always add.

Sub/s - I'll add a model pic for better perspective. The space including everything open to the living room is fairly large. 21x18 x 18' highest point LR vaulted, 14.5x10.5 x 9 high DR, 14.5x12 x 9 high Kitchen, and the entry and part of the upstairs could be added as well since there is an overlook from 2nd floor.

In-wall speakers. I would have never thought that an in-wall speaker would sound as good as a bookshelf or surround style speaker. But this is a very flush look which I'd venture a guess that the wife would like. I need to look into this option I really don't know anything about them.
Do in-wall speakers sound as good as bookshelf style? JBL Studio 2 vs. SuperZero 2.1

As far as the def.techs I was looking at, I planed to mount them with a swivel mount, so they would not be flush against the wall. I want the ability to point the speakers where I need to.
I'm assuming Zieg suggested a sealed bookshelf so there would be no port to interfere with my mounting on the wall, but like a mentioned, if I wall mount, the speakers will be a bit away from the wall.

So many options, I suppose the big question now is in-wall vs. wall mounted?
Thanks everyone for the suggestions thus far.

 

[shadyJ]

In-walls generally are not as good as regular bookshelf speakers, but when you flush mount a bookshelf speaker against a wall, you lose many of the advantages it has over an in-wall.

 

[TD4W]

Is a few inches away from the wall adequate for a bookshelf speaker?

 

[Pogre]

Is a few inches away from the wall adequate for a bookshelf speaker?

If it's not ported in the rear a few inches might be sufficient. 6" would be even better, but you have a WAF involved so I get it. I do believe some regular speakers a few inches from the wall would sound better than most in wall speakers.

*Edit: My surround speakers are mounted a few inches from the wall and sound pretty good. Now that's surround duty. I haven't tried listening to just them for anything else.

 

[shadyJ]

Is a few inches away from the wall adequate for a bookshelf speaker?

If it's not ported in the rear a few inches might be sufficient. 6" would be even better, but you have a WAF involved so I get it. I do believe some regular speakers a few inches from the wall would sound better than most in wall speakers.

*Edit: My surround speakers are mounted a few inches from the wall and sound pretty good. Now that's surround duty. I haven't tried listening to just them for anything else.

Its not rear porting that hurts the speakers for that kind of placement, it is simply boundary gain and elevated early reflections. Try this experiment with someone: while you are in the middle of the room, tell them to talk to you when they are standing right next to a wall and then, while they are talking, have them move away from the wall. Listen for the changes in the sound of their voice. The acoustics alters their voice significantly, and that will happen to the sound of the speakers too. You want to position the speakers in spots where room acoustics affect them the least. You can also use the room acoustics to your advantage, if you know how.

 

[Pogre]

Its not rear porting that hurts the speakers for that kind of placement, it is simply boundary gain and elevated early reflections. Try this experiment with someone: while you are in the middle of the room, tell them to talk to you when they are standing right next to a wall and then, while they are talking, have them move away from the wall. Listen for the changes in the sound of their voice. The acoustics alters their voice significantly, and that will happen to the sound of the speakers too. You want to position the speakers in spots where room acoustics affect them the least. You can also use the room acoustics to your advantage, if you know how.

That, is deeper than my knowledge goes, but I can intuit what your saying. I'm also thinking putting a rear ported speaker on the wall and blocking the port would change its tuning and bass response? Maybe not always in a negative way, but I'd guess more often than not. I can see in some smaller rooms that could actually be an improvement. Like you suggested, using room boundaries to your advantage.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

From what I recall, 1-1/2 times the diameter of a port is the minimum distance. I've seen this in reference to subwoofers more than speakers. Shady is right, whether a speaker is ported or not, the boundary interaction is always a factor. It's one reason a lot of 2ch(and if you have room) setups have the mains way out in the room. Avoiding room interaction. Some small speakers are made to take into account close proximity to a wall and are tuned accordingly. That can mean a couple things depending on the goal. Anyway, I'd probably just save for awhile.

 

[shadyJ]

That, is deeper than my knowledge goes, but I can intuit what your saying. I'm also thinking putting a rear ported speaker on the wall and blocking the port would change its tuning and bass response? Maybe not always in a negative way, but I'd guess more often than not. I can see in some smaller rooms that could actually be an improvement. Like you suggested, using room boundaries to your advantage.

If you place the rear-ported speaker flush against the wall, yes, you will eliminate its port generated output. While that in itself might not always be a bad thing as many bookshelf speaker bump up bass around tuning, the boundary gain and reflections at other frequencies get messed up from being placed too close to the wall. Stand-off distances are needed for most speakers to sound their best.

 

[TD4W]

Great info guys. I will do my best to get the speakers away from the wall, but it will most likely only be a few inches. Say 4". In good news I did work on the wife and she now agrees on some slightly larger speakers and starting with a 3.1. set-up for a while. I think Ziegs earlier suggestion (or something similar will work for me with some floating bookshelves which is WAF approved. These shelves are only so big, so getting those speakers form the wall will be a challenge. Zieg's suggestion speaker is sealed which at least helps with the struggle.

zieg - "3.1 is a good way to start
If your going to mount on the wall - then look at NHT SuperOne 2.1 -- they are sealed -- buy 3 each and use one as a center channel
http://www.nhthifi.com/products/10658-nht-superone-2-1
subwoofer -- Look at HSU
http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-2mk5.html"

I've attached some screen shots of my model with the dimensions of the NHT speakers in it as well to get a feel for what it looks like with floating shelves and the wife is on board.. I'm getting somewhere...

These pics also give an idea of the size of the space I'm trying to fill with bass, and I hope 1 of the HSU subs will be decent to start and then I can always add a second. Roughly 8100ft^3 all open space..

Any other suggestions for bookshelf/center speakers that would compare to the NHT for the money?
I assume the ELAC B6 doesn't measure up? Or the KEF Q100 @ 300 a pair right now?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CE3LHQW/?tag=thewire06-20&linkCode=xm2&ascsubtag=AgEAAAAAAAAAAAIoAAAAAGbd2i0AAAAAWQ5Lvw

I'm basically trying to make a short list of 3 speaker for $600 ish (2 mains and a center). This will leave 900 for an AV and sub. There are some many articles, with a wide array of opinions etc.
Everything I've read about the NHT is great and it's definitely the speaker to beat for me. (Thanks for the suggestion zieg)

Making progress, Thanks everyone.

 

[-Jim-]

I've got a pair of some Andrew Jones designed Pioneers which I bought from Best Buy for a song after they got rave reviews. In my opinion for my Home Office they are great.

As for the ELAC B6s, they too have rave reviews but you should be looking /listening for Home Theater Speaker systems rather than a pair of this, then adding a center channel, etc., as eventually you'll buy them all and have to live with them in your system.

There is a review of the Debut system on site here:

http://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/elac-debut-loudspeaker-system

But I can save you a read and cut to the chase.

"If you’ve been cash-strapped and wanted to get great sound at home, then put pen to paper and drop Andrew Jones a big thank you note. The ELAC Debut is a darn great speaker line. What a superb example of mixing science and art to produce a true masterpiece. Certainly, at this price point, the Debut speakers have their flaws, but I never did find a real Achilles heel. Those flaws never undermined the many strengths of the setup. That’s a real testament.

So that there’s no doubt, I’ll say it plainly: The ELAC debut is an audiophile and home theater bargain. While the ELAC Debut won't dethrone $5k/pair or even $2k/pair competently designed speakers, it will give speakers at least twice or even three times their price a serious run for their money--knocking a few off their perch along the way. Highly recommended!"

However these come with small tower speakers which may need a WAF adjustment. Some ladies like them rather than book shelf types, and you can adjust their location in a pinch. Place them against the wall out of the way, and pull out them to the correct location for "serious" listening. However, I have read articles with B6s as the Fronts and B5s for the surrounds which are also pretty impressive.

I'd recommend you look at a different Sub, as the gents here have identified a couple good ways to go. You may want to look at a wireless sub, and do the subwoofer crawl to find the right placement for it. Trying to guess a good spot now is fruitless. Wireless Subs (other than you still have to plug it into the power at the wall) often gains you a good WAF you can trade to get the something else => Like small towers. I cannot harp enough on how speaker placement, seating, and the topography in your listening area will affect the sound.

Was I correct earlier when I said you can still rough in the speaker cables?

 

[TD4W]

I've got about a week before the wall gets closed up. The wires now are run to the locations identified in the model. I may run wires up to the ceiling (for potential atmos usage) but this will stay behind the wall, and I really don't think I'll ever implement this, unless the speakers are wall mounted which would probably not look great. In ceiling speakers are non starter for me in a cathedral ceiling, airtightness and insulation is worlds more important to me than a speaker. Great idea, and I will run the wire, who knows maybe someday I will throw a speaker or 2 up there.

Also, as far as sub placement goes, I will move it around and see what works best. speaker crawl will happen. The model sub location is just that. something I can use to show the wife what things will/may/could look like.

 

[TD4W]

Sorry for the confusion but when I was asking about the B6, I was referring to just the mains (R and L) I really wasn't considering the whole 5.1 set-up. I think I'm convinced to just start with a 3.1, and right now I cant really think/find a better set-up than what zieg suggested above. I'm continuing my search. I think there are some Klipsch bookshelves in my price range I want to research as well. Like I mentioned above, there are so many options, and I'm just trying to narrow the field.. who knows, maybe there isn't anything out there better than the NHT's for the money, but I need to do my do diligence and check out the market, it's in my DNA.

-over analyzing engineer.