how to get best 2-ch audio from video player?

[music4Luis]

I am a new member..an old-timer, 2-channel audiophile. Now at home we're ALSO into video and we have the projected screen between my 2 floor-standing speakers ( no interest in surround sound, nor in having an AV receiver because I prefer to pick my own power amp).
We want the best quality audio sound with our films and for music.
Current audio setup - Mac Mini USB out to USB-Coax converter, into the digital coax input of my Bel Canto 1.2 DAC, then - DAC analog out to power amp.
SO....can I ask you and the forum participants for their suggestions??

 

[Bucknekked]

I am a new member..an old-timer, 2-channel audiophile. Now at home we're ALSO into video and we have the projected screen between my 2 floor-standing speakers ( no interest in surround sound, nor in having an AV receiver because I prefer to pick my own power amp).
We want the best quality audio sound with our films and for music.
Current audio setup - Mac Mini USB out to USB-Coax converter, into the digital coax input of my Bel Canto 1.2 DAC, then - DAC analog out to power amp.
SO....can I ask you and the forum participants for their suggestions??

music4Luis
Welcome, welcome to the AH forum. Always good to hear from new folks. There is a ton of knowledge available here. I hope you enjoy your time.

I too am a two channel buff and I too start with my source on a Mac Mini that's been USB attached at various times to the amplification portion of the system. I looked and couldn't find much about your Bel Canto 1.2 DAC but the manufacturer seems to be solid and make an ongoing set of products that offer good value.

I think before I made recommendations on how to improve, I'd like to see a more complete description of what you're running for amps and speakers. How do you store and access your music ? Movies? Do you drive everything (music and movies) through the Mac Mini? What types of music do you favor?

What I do with my Mac Mini and music library is keep everything in lossless, uncompressed files. Movies are ripped in and stored as digital files as well unless its one that will go through my blu ray player.

I look forward to seeing how you make the magic happen.

 

[music4Luis]

Thanks Buck...My DAC is a Bel Canto 2.5 ( oops- my typo earlier saying 1.2). I t has coax, optical and analog inputs with RCA and XLR outputs. Pretty good one that went for around $2K ( I got it used for $900 2 years ago).
So Audio signal goes from Mac mini usb out...Bel Canto usb-to-coax converter... to BelCanto 2.5 DAC preamp coax digital input....to Musical Design D150B MkII power amp ( 150w/ch).
Video signal from 1) Mac mini with actual DVD or ripped DVDs stored on the hard drive...via HDMI to projectorfor regular DVD's...2) for playing Blu Ray discs I use a Sony BDP via HDMI out to projector ( audio out via optical to DAC's optical input).

Does the HDMI signal carry higher quality audio 0's and 1's that I can somehow play?

If yes, how can I get to that better audio signal? with my current system that has no AV processors....OR ...Would the OPPO 203 give me access to it? or.....

 

[MrBoat]

Welcome to AH

Not to take away from your quest, but for a comparative, have you tried just direct analog source into your amp? Sometimes, starting with the known basics from whence you came, can reveal other possibilities.

 

[Bucknekked]

Thanks Buck...My DAC is a Bel Canto 2.5 ( oops- my typo earlier saying 1.2). I t has coax, optical and analog inputs with RCA and XLR outputs. Pretty good one that went for around $2K ( I got it used for $900 2 years ago).
So Audio signal goes from Mac mini usb out...Bel Canto usb-to-coax converter... to BelCanto 2.5 DAC preamp coax digital input....to Musical Design D150B MkII power amp ( 150w/ch).
Video signal from 1) Mac mini with actual DVD or ripped DVDs stored on the hard drive...via HDMI to projectorfor regular DVD's...2) for playing Blu Ray discs I use a Sony BDP via HDMI out to projector ( audio out via optical to DAC's optical input).

Does the HDMI signal carry higher quality audio 0's and 1's that I can somehow play?

If yes, how can I get to that better audio signal? with my current system that has no AV processors....OR ...Would the OPPO 203 give me access to it? or.....

Thanks for the update.
Does HDMI do a better job than USB? Rhetorical question or not, I believe the technical answer is "no".
From a simplicity of cabling and other aspects, its what I do now over what I have done in the passed.

I run an HDMI cable out of my Mac Mini to my AVR. I know you don't want an AVR and this is just to illustrate what I'm doing. That HDMI connection takes my lossless and uncompressed audio files to the DAC internal to my new Denon unit. They get decoded and played at the highest bit rate supported by the new version DAC in the Denon. I run in Pure Direct mode, so its straight from the DAC to the amplification section with literally nothing else touching the signal in the AVR.

The AVR also passes the HDMI signal from my Mac Mini to the flat screen TV mounted above my audio rack. This gives me an HD console for the Mac Mini and a way to directly play items using the Mac Mini wireless keyboard and mouse.

I also use a remote control app on my Ipad to control playing music and video about 95% of the time. I can use the keyboard and mouse, but I rarely do. The HDMI chain gives me a single cable, highest bit rates, all digital, and a way to use my flat screen as a console.

You can accomplish your audio at the same quality as HDMI with USB as long as your DAC is seeing everything correctly from the USB interface. One added feature of an AVR is a visual display of the data rate being decoded and played.

I believe in the type of setup we are talking about (2 channel music) the big hitters for sound quality would be:

1. Your speakers (we haven't talked about those yet). Number 1 influencer for sound to your ears
2. Source file quality. Good audio source at as high a bit rate as you can get pays big dividends
3. DAC/Amplification that's "good enough". If its over the good enough bar, diminishing returns.
There is lots of discussion about the benefits of amplifiers. I will steer clear of that for now.

If you are happy with your sound, you may simply be doing due diligence by looking for a better way. If you really want to improve on what you have today, the first place I'd look to improve is your speakers. We havn't discussed what you run today or your current satisfaction level. Are you satisfied with today's performance? What type of speakers do you run?

 

[music4Luis]

...FORGOT to tell you about my speakers ...which are Effeqt Ceratec Mk iV slim tubular floor standers..( 1 tweeter and 2 smallish woofers per side ) see here http://www.essenceelectrostatic.com/product/effeqt-mk-iv-floor-standing-tower/ they are fast, detailed, smooth, open. I also recently added a small Velodyne subwoofer for oomph for flicks.

 

[music4Luis]

Welcome to AH

Not to take away from your quest, but for a comparative, have you tried just direct analog source into your amp? Sometimes, starting with the known basics from whence you came, can reveal other possibilities.

MrBoat , I had been using direct analog out of my Mac mini...and analog out from the DVD players I've had. The dac sections in my Mac and in dvd players just did not sound anywhere near as nice, as dynamic, as detailed as through my external doc. And that's where I've been for 2 years or so. Keep hearing that Blurays have higher quality audio in the HDMI output ( PCM? ) but do not know how to access it. Better sound is there somewhere...how can i get at it??

 

[MrBoat]

MrBoat , I had been using direct analog out of my Mac mini...and analog out from the DVD players I've had. The dac sections in my Mac and in dvd players just did not sound anywhere near as nice, as dynamic, as detailed as through my external doc. And that's where I've been for 2 years or so. Keep hearing that Blurays have higher quality audio in the HDMI output ( PCM? ) but do not know how to access it. Better sound is there somewhere...how can i get at it??

I really wouldn't expect something with "mini" in the name to produce a reliable analog signal, even though I do know it happens in some cases. I find this to be true with some laptops, cell phones etc. What I meant was, something like a decent CD player.

I know this is overly simplistic by today's standards, but sometimes, it shows what your amp and speakers have to start with.

ETA: Okay. I reread your post and see where you have tried other sources. Don't mind me. I'm even more antiqued in my approaches.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Welcome,

To start off, your speakers and and the room acoustic is where it is at.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Never heard of these : http://ceratecaudio.com/effeqt/
But then again they heavily remind me of B&W XT4. I know XT4 actually sound really nice, but can't say anything about ceratec. @mtrycrafts is right. Getting good sound - It's all about speakers and room.
We could discuss advantages of various interfaces, but bottom line is - since this is Apple hardware, even analog out is good enough in most cases. Also something you may not know is "analog headphones" out port is also serves as optical out with a right cable.

Not sure if velodyne is best choice - they make lots models and many budget models are only useful in tiny rooms.

Integrating sub with speakers is not as easy without proper bass managements. I'd just get used $100 AVR with pre-amp outs ports. Run hdmi to avr, use existing amp to power front speakers (god knows they need extra power) using pre-out ports on avr (not using it's amps) and integrate sub properly with bass management, I'd say despite 40hz stated bass extension (calling BS here) - I'd start with 80hz crossover and maybe go even higher,

 

[Swerd]

I am a new member..an old-timer, 2-channel audiophile. Now at home we're ALSO into video and we have the projected screen between my 2 floor-standing speakers (no interest in surround sound, nor in having an AV receiver because I prefer to pick my own power amp).
We want the best quality audio sound with our films and for music.
Current audio setup - Mac Mini USB out to USB-Coax converter, into the digital coax input of my Bel Canto 1.2 DAC, then - DAC analog out to power amp.

The dac sections in my Mac and in dvd players just did not sound anywhere near as nice, as dynamic, as detailed as through my external doc. And that's where I've been for 2 years or so. Keep hearing that Blurays have higher quality audio in the HDMI output (PCM?) but do not know how to access it. Better sound is there somewhere...how can i get at it??

The only way to access the newer audio codecs used in Bluray discs is to have a DAC capable of reading them. These signals are transferred only via HDMI connections. Some of these codecs (made by Dolby Digital and DTS) are lossless multi-channel audio. Older DVDs have Dolby Digital and DTS codecs that are good, but are not lossless. Most older external DACs, such as what you have, can read standard CD 2-channel audio (Red Book CD), or DVD movie audio converted to 2-channel and transferred via PCM over a digital cable (optical or coaxial). It is possible that some external DACs may also read the lossy Dolby Digital or DTS codecs (found on DVDs), but I am not certain about that.

As far as I know, the only way to get modern DACs that read all the lossless codecs available on Bluray discs is to get an AVR, an AV preamp/processor, or one of the few Bluray players that still contain multi-channel DACs.

You can still use your own external power amp as long as you get an AVR that has preamp output RCA jacks. They will send analog audio signals, at the appropriate voltage level, to your amplifier. I do that and it works no different than with an external preamp, except that the AVR has all the DACs and audio sound management software that older external stereo preamps lack.

You mentioned that you have a projected video screen, which implies a large size. With a large screen, I think you will greatly benefit from a center channel speaker. If you use properly decoded Bluray or DVD audio, such as with an AVR, the center channel will contain mainly or exclusively dialog. You will be able to adjust the volume of the center speaker relative to the left & right speakers to get balanced sound. You don't really need the rear channel speakers, a 3-channel system can be satisfying. And you can still listen to music with only the left & right speakers as you seem to prefer.

 

[MrBoat]

I wish audiophiles (admittedly, those here are more open minded) would make up their minds! Just a few months ago, while researching around the net for hooking up my computer to my amplifier, half seemed to say that an external DAC was a prerequisite, while the other portion argued that most desktop computers at least, have had capable DACs built into their soundcards, even the onboard chips, for quite some time.

My 10 year old Dell which has Linux OS, sounds surprisingly good hooked up to even my older integrated amps via a simple Y cord from the headphone jack. So much so, that when I bought my new PC a few months ago, I looked no further and hooked it up the same way and it's been great for 2 channel.

The biggest improvement I have made to date, to a point of unimaginable improvement, has been a reasonably powerful AVR with a sub out, a good, passive subwoofer with it's own dedicated amp, and speakers.

 

[lovinthehd]

I wish audiophiles (admittedly, those here are more open minded) would make up their minds! Just a few months ago, while researching around the net for hooking up my computer to my amplifier, half seemed to say that an external DAC was a prerequisite, while the other portion argued that most desktop computers at least, have had capable DACs built into their soundcards, even the onboard chips, for quite some time.

My 10 year old Dell which has Linux OS, sounds surprisingly good hooked up to even my older integrated amps via a simple Y cord from the headphone jack. So much so, that when I bought my new PC a few months ago, I looked no further and hooked it up the same way and it's been great for 2 channel.

The biggest improvement I have made to date, to a point of unimaginable improvement, has been a reasonably powerful AVR with a sub out, a good, passive subwoofer with it's own dedicated amp, and speakers.

Definition of audiophile: "a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction" We're all audiophiles around here just by nature but doesn't mean anyone is particularly expert OTOH.

 

[TLS Guy]

Swerd has really hit the nail on the head.

However those speakers would probably not benefit from higher quality audio.

The woofers are very ordinary Chinese made Wavecore woofers. They are the SW118WA01, but with the chassis altered so that they can fit closer together.

Power handling is vague at 40 watts program. Fs is 60 Hz so they will roll off 24 db/octave at or a little above that point. So that is poor small bookshelf performance. They are fairly high Q at 0.47. The xmax is only 4mm. This coupled with the low sensitivity of 84 db 2.83 volts 1 meter, which is 81 db one watt one meter since one driver is used for BSC dropping the impedance to 40 ohm. So they will have very limited acoustic output without distortion. No distortion is specified, however there are very similar drivers from that source whose distortion becomes a straight line up below 200 Hz.

Cone break up starts abruptly at 1500 Hz, which is very poor performance for such a small driver. So the driver has to be crossed right in the most sensitive part of the speech discrimination band.

They make a lot of play that because the speaker is so narrow there will be no standing waves in the cabinet. Well the cabinet is 4' tall so there will be a standing wave right at 140 Hz, with the second harmonic at 180 Hz. Not good.

The front baffle is only half inch MDF! No wonder that put deadening foam on the front panel.

If there was a case of looks being deceiving this is it.

But as Swerd says you will only get the highest quality from BD with an HDMI connection.

 

[music4Luis]

QUOTE FROM SWERD comment: "As far as I know, the only way to get modern DACs that read all the lossless codecs available on Bluray discs is to get an AVR, an AV preamp/processor, or one of the few Bluray players that still contain multi-channel DACs."

Swerd,
Are the OPPO 203 and 205 able to output Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD decoded lossless audio via their FL, FR and C RCA outputs? Is that audio the high-quality sound processed via Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD decoding? ( or is the benefit of the audio goodness of those codecs only available via HDMI outputs therefore necessitating an AV Receiver ?)
Thanks!

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, the Oppo 203/205 both are among the few Bluray players that have onboard dacs with a full set of analog outs that can handle the codecs you list.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I've seen oppo dropped in here a couple times, but my question may have zero relevance, as it's not directly related. Please feel free to boot it out. Or ignore...
Does anybody know if oppo ever fixed the signal clipping issues? Iirc, the 105 was afflicted but I haven't followed the progression.

 

[lovinthehd]

I've seen oppo dropped in here a couple times, but my question may have zero relevance, as it's not directly related. Please feel free to boot it out. Or ignore...
Does anybody know if oppo ever fixed the signal clipping issues? Iirc, the 105 was afflicted but I haven't followed the progression.

I believe they did issue firmware updates eventually but I'd have to dig it up...and believe it was an LFE channel thing. Now I'm gonna have to go dig it up of course....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

I believe they did issue firmware updates eventually but I'd have to dig it up...and believe it was an LFE channel thing. Now I'm gonna have to go dig it up of course....

Lol! Sorry chris, didn't mean to give you anything else to dig in to. I believe you're right. It had to do with sub channel clipping, and getting worse with the summed bass from added channels. Fwiw, I hope they did get that ironed out.

 

[MrBoat]

Definition of audiophile: "a person who is enthusiastic about high-fidelity sound reproduction" We're all audiophiles around here just by nature but doesn't mean anyone is particularly expert OTOH.

I was half kidding with that opening statement. Just recalling my initial re-initiation into audio along with all the modern ways of thinking and terminology. Not so much this forums as with other places around the net. Y'all were a great help though.