2-Channel Pre-amp versus Expensive AV processor

[Leo 472]

Given how quickly technology changes, which strategy makes more sense for a combined home theater/stereo system with separate amps? Buying a good 2-channel pre-amp with home theater bypass (e.g., Parasound JC 2 BP) and either a mid-range AV processor or mid-range AV receiver with pre-outs, or buying a high quality AV processor to handle everything (e.g., Marantz AV 8802A)? Thanks.

 

[TheWarrior]

Given how quickly technology changes, which strategy makes more sense for a combined home theater/stereo system with separate amps? Buying a good 2-channel pre-amp with home theater bypass (e.g., Parasound JC 2 BP) and either a mid-range AV processor or mid-range AV receiver with pre-outs, or buying a high quality AV processor to handle everything (e.g., Marantz AV 8802A)? Thanks.

I'd buy a mid/high pre-Atmos receiver from Marantz or Denon.

There is no benefit to stereo only set ups. The price makes you think twice, but realize its pure profit due to stereo's simplicity.

As for technology, I prefer high quality speakers, so 5 channel surround sound will be my choice until some new way creating sound is invented. The inclusion of Atmos in modern receivers requires manufacturers to skimp on other parts (like the amplifier) to maintain costs.

 

[sterling shoote]

I've been shopping too. My 16 year old Sony TA-E9000ES control amp does not have HDMI input and therefore I can not listen to multi-channel SACD from modern, inexpensive universal disc players. From that perspective, I believe the Marantz pre/pro will best serve my needs: play multi-channel SACD, play iTunes library from computer and from iCloud wirelessly, allow for 5.1 hookup to my existing power amps, and allow for most current decoding/processing. The only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger is my concern over the brands quality, I do not want to hook it all up and test all functions only to find something does not work which would upset me most dramatically. Plus, the manual for the unit is like 300 plus pages. It would seem I might need a professional audio installer to hook it up; but, in my area I am unaware of any installers who have any capability with the Marantz product, either selling it or installing it.

 

[TheWarrior]

I've been shopping too. My 16 year old Sony TA-E9000ES control amp does not have HDMI input and therefore I can not listen to multi-channel SACD from modern, inexpensive universal disc players. From that perspective, I believe the Marantz pre/pro will best serve my needs: play multi-channel SACD, play iTunes library from computer and from iCloud wirelessly, allow for 5.1 hookup to my existing power amps, and allow for most current decoding/processing. The only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger is my concern over the brands quality, I do not want to hook it all up and test all functions only to find something does not work which would upset me most dramatically. Plus, the manual for the unit is like 300 plus pages. It would seem I might need a professional audio installer to hook it up; but, in my area I am unaware of any installers who have any capability with the Marantz product, either selling it or installing it.

Where are you located? And between Denon, Marantz and Yamaha, I would not think twice about a good deal that had all the desired features!

 

[PENG]

I've been shopping too. My 16 year old Sony TA-E9000ES control amp does not have HDMI input and therefore I can not listen to multi-channel SACD from modern, inexpensive universal disc players. From that perspective, I believe the Marantz pre/pro will best serve my needs: play multi-channel SACD, play iTunes library from computer and from iCloud wirelessly, allow for 5.1 hookup to my existing power amps, and allow for most current decoding/processing. The only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger is my concern over the brands quality, I do not want to hook it all up and test all functions only to find something does not work which would upset me most dramatically. Plus, the manual for the unit is like 300 plus pages. It would seem I might need a professional audio installer to hook it up; but, in my area I am unaware of any installers who have any capability with the Marantz product, either selling it or installing it.

I would trust you reading the manual, or even by trial and error than to hire an installer unless you know one really well so you know his knowledge and most importantly his attitude/integrity. The 8802A may have 300 pages of instruction but if you take the time, you can do it without even reading any pages. Of course it will be a different story if you want to try every single function in a few days. I have my 8801 for two years now and I have not used all the features though I have confirmed that everything I used are working.

Any of the flagship avr and prepros will have numerous features and capabilities that you may not even have the necessary components to do the tests. The 8802A is a good buy if you are prepared to keep it for longer than say 6 years, that is, you have no trouble ignoring the next two or three generations claim of improved sound quality, let along the forever changing features and formats etc. Just search for the reviews of the AV8003, 7005, 8801 and now 8802A you will know what I mean. I have no trouble because I don't believe anything the reviewers say about the SQ improvements just because the new units use a different DAC or substituted an opa with a tiny discrete cct board, but most people probably would be bother and tempted by those little changes.

 

[PENG]

Given how quickly technology changes, which strategy makes more sense for a combined home theater/stereo system with separate amps? Buying a good 2-channel pre-amp with home theater bypass (e.g., Parasound JC 2 BP) and either a mid-range AV processor or mid-range AV receiver with pre-outs, or buying a high quality AV processor to handle everything (e.g., Marantz AV 8802A)? Thanks.

I can't see how a preamp with HT bypass can help without knowing what you intend to use it for. It would seem that most people just have to choose whether to go with a mid to flagship avr plus a 2 or 3 channel power amp, or go with a prepro plus a multi channel power amp. I have preamps that have HT bypass but never found a need for it because they won't improve sound quality over the AVR or prepro. I was told they would, but the bubble burst quickly after some trials.

 

[DD66000]

Using a pre-amp w/bypass can certainly have its advantages.
I use a Parasound P7 with HK AVR. The P7 is much easier to use...no deep menus to dive into....for music, the P7 controls it all, including the sub level out, while the AVR controls for movies, which has a different sub level set.
Plus I can change anything on the fly from the P7 remote. Get a recording that is not quite centered, touch of a button and the problem is corrected...the AVR would require going deep into the speaker setup menu.

 

[sterling shoote]

I like the newer stereo preamps out there today which have optical and coaxial inputs in addition to analog inputs. I also like digital outputs too, which allow for digital recording. What I have not seen yet is analog to digital conversion within the stereo preamp's I've looked into. Perhaps, I'm not looking hard enough. At any rate. I still believe today's stereo preamps to be deficient for not generally having subwoofer support or speaker correction. It's why if I were in the market today for a preamp primarily for stereo, I'd still get a multi-channel pre/pro.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I vote for ONE pre-pro or AVR.

I think stereo preamps are superfluous and obsolete.

 

[sterling shoote]

I wish Sony would get back into producing pre/pros. I have their latest, a TA-E9000ES. It was manufactured over 16 years ago. Although, through add-on devices, I've managed to keep it as effective as when new I would nevertheless like HDMI, and AirPlay.

BTW, Macintosh makes a digital stereo preamp today which has both variable and fixed output. It's pretty cool, essentially allowing a guy who primarily has digital source components to connect such to the digital preamp, then that preamp can be connected to an analog preamp for control features/routing, that sort of thing.

 

[sterling shoote]

Where are you located? And between Denon, Marantz and Yamaha, I would not think twice about a good deal that had all the desired features!

I am located in Louisville, Kentucky home to fast horses, and Bourbon whisky.

 

[class a]

I prefer tubes w/my music. I have a CJ ET3 SE for music and an AV Processor for movies. Gives me the best of both worlds.

 

[2channel lover]

I can't see how a preamp with HT bypass can help without knowing what you intend to use it for. It would seem that most people just have to choose whether to go with a mid to flagship avr plus a 2 or 3 channel power amp, or go with a prepro plus a multi channel power amp. I have preamps that have HT bypass but never found a need for it because they won't improve sound quality over the AVR or prepro. I was told they would, but the bubble burst quickly after some trials.

I just recently got back into HT and asked the sales guy are the new AVR/pre-pro as good as a high quality stereo preamp for 2 ch.

His thoughts...there was a time when that was a lot truer than it is today. A lot of hi-end 'philes subscribe to the purity of 2 ch audio thru a stereo preamp/power amp configuration and a totally separate HT system. He questions that thinking, but sells such systems every month.

HT By pass...He said even today there is some improvement in sound quality when the pre amp w/ HT BP cost is well into the 4 figure range...he pointed to the Parasound JC2BP as an example. This is a $4k investment. Is the improvement worth that much money? Largely depends on your level of critical listening and your bank account.

He noted the P5...very slight, if any improvement, and the 2100 (which they also sell), save the money or put it into better speakers.

Admittedly I did hear some differences myself with music played thru the JC2BP/AV7702mkii/amp and same music/source the AV7702mkii/amp alone. But maybe I'm not a critical enough listener to appreciate that subtle of a difference....there was no WOW factor...not $4k worth for certain.

 

[PENG]

Admittedly I did hear some differences myself with music played thru the JC2BP/AV7702mkii/amp and same music/source the AV7702mkii/amp alone. But maybe I'm not a critical enough listener to appreciate that subtle of a difference....there was no WOW factor...not $4k worth for certain.

I don't have the JC but do have preamp/amp higher end (or more expensive rather) than the P5 and A21 separates. I also heard minor difference initially but after doing numerous A/B comparisons in very focus and concentrated listening to the point I felt stressed, I no longer hear such difference. Now I firmly believe at low spl, 70 to 80dB for me sitting 8-9 ft from the speakers, there is no discernible difference between a mid to high end AVR for listening to jazz and classical music in stereo. Obviously if you push the spl/power limit the more powerful separates will win, but even then you are only going to gain a couple of dB, or a touch more in dynamic peaks unless go with something like the JC monoblocks.

Pyperphsics summed it up very well:

The operational details of amplifiers are buried in the field of electronics, but for audio purposes it is usually safe to say that current commercial audio amplifiers are so good that a normally operating amplifier is seldom the limitation on the fidelity of a sound reproduction system. One must be sure that the amplifier can provide enough power to drive the existing loudspeakers, but otherwise amplifiers are typically one of the most trouble-free elements of a sound system.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Audio/amp.html#c1

 

[lovinthehd]

Another vote for the avr or a pre-pro/amps setup, depends on your speakers/use to a degree. Adding complexity to a system unnecessarily is more a consuming exercise than enjoying the content...

 

[2channel lover]

I don't have the JC but do have preamp/amp higher end (or more expensive rather) than the P5 and A21 separates. I also heard minor difference initially but after doing numerous A/B comparisons in very focus and concentrated listening to the point I felt stressed, I no longer hear such difference. Now I firmly believe at low spl, 70 to 80dB for me sitting 8-9 ft from the speakers, there is no discernible difference between a mid to high end AVR for listening to jazz and classical music in stereo. Obviously if you push the spl/power limit the more powerful separates will win, but even then you are only going to gain a couple of dB, or a touch more in dynamic peaks unless go with something like the JC monoblocks.

Pyperphsics summed it up very well:



http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/Audio/amp.html#c1

I bought the pre pro about 2 mos ago so it's still pretty fresh. My comparison lasted all of about 30-40 minutes, including the time to reconfigure the systems. In both cases we were listening to separates just swapping out the 2 ch stereo pre for the av pre/pro.

I think whatever differences there were are so slight that the average person might not detect it.

 

[2channel lover]

Another vote for the avr or a pre-pro/amps setup, depends on your speakers/use to a degree. Adding complexity to a system unnecessarily is more a consuming exercise than enjoying the content...

This was really about stereo preamp with HT by pass vs AV I think.

That said, the AVR vs AV + amp debate is a hard one to "win" for the AV side if you are grounded in the sounds better theory.

Mine reasoning for separates was two fold...1...Longevity. Amps generate heat, the harder they work results in more heat imo...combining that in one case with the processing and control seemingly would take some time off the shelf life vs putting the amps in a separate case.

The 2nd...Value. The price I got on the close out AV was $500 lower than the AVR I was considering, so I was able to get a more robust amp w/ dedicated power supply for what amounted to about $350 more than the AVR....Not that I'm one to sneeze at $350 but I did recognize it as a better value long term.

 

[PENG]

The 2nd...Value. The price I got on the close out AV was $500 lower than the AVR I was considering, so I was able to get a more robust amp w/ dedicated power supply for what amounted to about $350 more than the AVR....Not that I'm one to sneeze at $350 but I did recognize it as a better value long term.

IMO if you pick a good AVR, the longevity/heat shouldn't be much of an issue, but the $350 lower price is a good reason especially if your is the AV7702 MKII. If you are not one of those who must have the latest surround features, then your point about longevity could in fact be a real benefit.

 

[highfigh]

I've been shopping too. My 16 year old Sony TA-E9000ES control amp does not have HDMI input and therefore I can not listen to multi-channel SACD from modern, inexpensive universal disc players. From that perspective, I believe the Marantz pre/pro will best serve my needs: play multi-channel SACD, play iTunes library from computer and from iCloud wirelessly, allow for 5.1 hookup to my existing power amps, and allow for most current decoding/processing. The only thing keeping me from pulling the trigger is my concern over the brands quality, I do not want to hook it all up and test all functions only to find something does not work which would upset me most dramatically. Plus, the manual for the unit is like 300 plus pages. It would seem I might need a professional audio installer to hook it up; but, in my area I am unaware of any installers who have any capability with the Marantz product, either selling it or installing it.

Use the dealer locator and call the ones in your area, but ask if they have installed many of the model you're looking at. Rather than going to a big box dealer, look for someone who is in the CI (Custom Integrator) chain, but be specific when you ask questions about what you need and what it can do.

WRT the 300 page manual- skim through and look for the details you need to know.

How much experience does someone need in order to be able to install one of these? It's not the same as setting up a top of the line AVR pr pre/pro.

 

[2channel lover]

IMO if you pick a good AVR, the longevity/heat shouldn't be much of an issue, but the $350 lower price is a good reason especially if your is the AV7702 MKII. If you are not one of those who must have the latest surround features, then your point about longevity could in fact be a real benefit.

The AV was the 7702mkii. The combo with the amps was actually $350 more than the AVR...I think I gave up HEOS with the AVR, but ended up with 3 monoblocks across the front and a 7 channel amp and separate power supply for the surrounds...kind of a no brainer to me.

Processing...HT was certainly a part of the decision to build this new system, but I'm mostly a music guy. The wife is the movie buff and she was content watching on a 42" LCD in the bedroom with no surround. Since were doing it, I set out to get the most up to date processing my funds would allow, but no, I'm not one to chase surround sound technology.

On the heat issue, you might be right. I'm an office manager and know little beyond the surface stuff about electronics, computers, etc. Our IT guy sold me on putting our servers a climate controlled area to keep everything at a cool operating temp instead of a room in the warehouse where the old servers had been that had no HVAC. His thought...the heat and humidity over time is shortening the life of the circuit boards, etc.

I applied that same theory to a AVR w/ amps and AV with no amps....like you said it may not matter, but I'm finding there seems to be a lot of gray area in this industry.