Sound pickup by the styllus

[Verdinut]

I highly doubt that an isolation platform is gonna do anything to mitigate any motor noise. The motor resides inside the chassis of the TT! To mitigate motor noise, you need to decouple the motor from the platter and chassis.

In a belt drive TT, the belt decouples the motor from the platter, and hopefully you have some sort of suspension to decouple the motor from the chassis. This is how my Pro-Ject does it.

For the SL1200 line, the platter is an integral part of the motor. The SL1200 line does not suffer from motor noise typical of lesser DD TTs.

Audio-Technica also produces excellent direct drive turntables with no transfer of motor vibration to the arm.
I own a AT-LP1240 USB DD model and it is very silent. Some owners even say that this TT performs better than the discontinued Technics SL1200. Have a look at the reviews on the B & H Photo website for instance.

 

[highfigh]

I've been debating to purchase an isolation platform to sit my turntable on like the Gingko Cloud or a dedicated stand or both for my direct drive turntable. I remember reading about belt vs direct drive noise transfer but forgot until you mentioned it, I think you just sold me.

Can you borrow a stethoscope? Put it on the base and listen, then put the stethoscope head on whatever the turntable is resting on and compare. If you hear a lot of sound when it's on the turntable, press a finger in the turntable base- just doing that will suppress a lot of the energy. Also, tap on whatever the turntable is resting on- if you hear a lot of sound, go to a Rockler Woodworking store and buy a set of 'bench cookies'. People use them to isolate turntables, as well as their intended uses.

How loudly do you listen to music? If it's not terribly loud, I'm not sure I would obsess about this unless the bass response from your speakers is extremely strong and the turntable is in a place where the energy is strongest.

I had a JVC turntable that would produce feedback as soon as the level reached what I would call 'loud', but it wasn't very heavy, either. The base was made of particle board and I didn't have it for long. The table I have now is much heavier, the base is heavy resin plastic and if I tap on the base, it's audible, but I haven't had issues from that.

 

[highfigh]

I've been debating to purchase an isolation platform to sit my turntable on like the Gingko Cloud or a dedicated stand or both for my direct drive turntable. I remember reading about belt vs direct drive noise transfer but forgot until you mentioned it, I think you just sold me.

I second the advice to mount it on a shelf that's attached to a wall, but only if the wall is load-bearing.

 

[highfigh]

What I'm trying to say is when I max my sub it will reverberate loudly. I think that's the feedback someone had mentioned.
I'm just curious because one of my friend try to tap the tonearm (not the body) a sound is being pick-up but not as loud as mine. Thanks.

Turntables were never designed for maxed out subwoofers. NEVER tap the tonearm!

A cartridge is usually microphonic, to some extent, so sound will be picked up by the cartridge, through the air. As long as the SPL isn't excessive, it's not a problem.

 

[highfigh]

I had an Audio Technica direct drive turn table that would pick up the drive unit. I could hear the hum during quiet and silent parts of songs.

Do you still have it? I would bet that if the motor was stopped and the stylus was resting on the LP, you would still hear the hum, especially if it was sitting on top of a receiver. That hum would have been from the power transformer, not the motor.

 

[killdozzer]

This is called 'feedback' and it can kill your speakers.

Don't just say this and move on. How can it kill your speakers?

 

[slipperybidness]

Audio-Technica also produces excellent direct drive turntables with no transfer of motor vibration to the arm.
I own a AT-LP1240 USB DD model and it is very silent. Some owners even say that this TT performs better than the discontinued Technics SL1200. Have a look at the reviews on the B & H Photo website for instance.

Hard to believe it would outperform the SL1200. But, I'm 100% certain that the AT build quality isn't anywhere near the build quality of the tank-like SL1200.

 

[slipperybidness]

When you say decoupled the motor from the platter and chassis what do I need to do? Thanks

The manufacturer should have done this, not you. If the manufacturer did NOT do this in the design, then we are talking major mods to get it done after the fact. I would not recommend that for any but the most hardcore DIY audio enthusiast!

Go back and review post #10 where I mention how the manufacturer would typically accomplish the decoupling.

 

[slipperybidness]

What I'm trying to say is when I max my sub it will reverberate loudly. I think that's the feedback someone had mentioned.
I'm just curious because one of my friend try to tap the tonearm (not the body) a sound is being pick-up but not as loud as mine. Thanks.

OK, you have 1 of 2 possibilities here. First, you need to figure out the problem, then you can solve it!

1) The subwoofer energy is actually physically disturbing the tone arm. If this is the case, then you need a rock-solid table or shelf for the TT, and it may help to move the TT as far away from the SW as practical.

2) Your motor "rumble" is getting amplified and output as sound by the subwoofer. Some subwoofers have a "rumble filter" that is simply a high-pass filter that filters out the rumble from the motor. My sub has a rumble filter for this type application, but in practice my motor doesn't rumble so I don't engage the filter.

 

[sterling shoote]

Here's what I do to eliminate any resonance produced by playing records at a high SPL: I don't play records at a high SPL. Instead, I digitize the record, while playing it at a very low SPL; and then, I can play the digitized version at any level I desire without issue. It allows me to fully appreciate the capacity of my JBL B380 passive subwoofer with what little bass is on my LP's.

 

[highfigh]

Don't just say this and move on. How can it kill your speakers?

Everything has a resonant frequency and when the speakers produce the one that excites the turntable/tonearm/cartridge, the signal from the cartridge goes to the preamp, the phono section increases it, it goes through the amplifier and to the speakers. It won't be a problem until the SPL reaches the point where the energy from the speakers exceeds the point where the turntable is able to dampen the resonance- this repeats until it becomes a loud 'howling' sound.

Ever aim a microphone toward the speaker(s) being used to amplify its signal or see someone playing an electric guitar face the speaker and make the notes sustain endlessly? Same principle.

How can it kill speakers? If it coincides with a frequency where the speaker can't handle full output from the amp and a lot of distortion (it's not going to happen at a low SPL unless the turntable is extremely susceptible) and nobody stops it, speakers can be damaged.

 

[vsound5150]

Can you borrow a stethoscope? Put it on the base and listen, then put the stethoscope head on whatever the turntable is resting on and compare. If you hear a lot of sound when it's on the turntable, press a finger in the turntable base- just doing that will suppress a lot of the energy. Also, tap on whatever the turntable is resting on- if you hear a lot of sound, go to a Rockler Woodworking store and buy a set of 'bench cookies'. People use them to isolate turntables, as well as their intended uses.

How loudly do you listen to music? If it's not terribly loud, I'm not sure I would obsess about this unless the bass response from your speakers is extremely strong and the turntable is in a place where the energy is strongest.

I had a JVC turntable that would produce feedback as soon as the level reached what I would call 'loud', but it wasn't very heavy, either. The base was made of particle board and I didn't have it for long. The table I have now is much heavier, the base is heavy resin plastic and if I tap on the base, it's audible, but I haven't had issues from that.

Thanks for the tips. I don't have a stethoscope but I have a measuring mic and a preamp with a headphone jack, I will see if it can pickup any sound differences from the surfaces. I've never heard of bench cookies but after checking they look similar in shape and size of the feet on my turntable, the feet has felt on the bottom and can screw off.

I'm evaluating my entire setup which I only had for couple months thinking to move everything into a larger living room and getting another rack/cabinet and a dedicated stand for the turntable. I have a small cabinet/shelf about 3 ft. high x 4 ft. wide located in front of the TV. There is a 10" sub and tower speaker on each side of the cabinet. I'm guessing the turntable is picking up unwanted noise and vibrations as it sits on the far left side ontop of the cabinet near the left sub and tower speaker.

The RCA cables on my turntable are very short, will it be a problem extending it to 10 - 15 ft.? I want to setup the turntable away from the rest of the system when I rearrange the entire setup, got lots to do.

 

[Verdinut]

Hard to believe it would outperform the SL1200. But, I'm 100% certain that the AT build quality isn't anywhere near the build quality of the tank-like SL1200.

Have a look at the reviews on the American Musical Supply website. One DJ considers the Technics SL1200 as junk compared to the Audio-Technica.

 

[lovinthehd]

The RCA cables on my turntable are very short, will it be a problem extending it to 10 - 15 ft.? I want to setup the turntable away from the rest of the system when I rearrange the entire setup, got lots to do.

Yes, length can definitely have an effect....

Have a look at the reviews on the American Musical Supply website. One DJ considers the Technics SL1200 as junk compared to the Audio-Technica.

Well, that proves it....

 

[slipperybidness]

Have a look at the reviews on the American Musical Supply website. One DJ considers the Technics SL1200 as junk compared to the Audio-Technica.

LOL! R-I-G-H-T.

I'll take the word of 1 random DJ on a website vs. ~40 years of ubiquity with DJs for the SL1200

We have real turntablist masters like DJ Craze, Q-bert, Mixmaster Mike, Cut Chemist, DJ Shadow, etc etc, that ONLY use SL1200 for a very good reason. Go have a look at the DMC championships on youtube! Look at the abuse these guys deal out daily on these TTs, I have a hard time believing that an AT at half the cost will stand up to that type of abuse daily. And, at the cost of the AT you are also paying for the USB and pre-amp electronics, so costs were cut somewhere else to pay for that. I do see in the specs that the AT has more torque, and that is definitely important for a turntablist.

I don't doubt that the AT is a fine TT, and likely a great substitute for the void left when the SL1200 stopped production. But, that's the correct category--"substitute" for the SL1200.

 

[vsound5150]

Couple record stores I've been to have SL1200 turntables setup to listen before you buy using headphones, sounds clear and superb to me even being direct driven. I actually overstay my welcome listenening through full albums because it sounds so good.

 

[slipperybidness]

Couple record stores I've been to have SL1200 turntables setup to listen before you buy using headphones, sounds clear and superb to me even being direct driven. I actually overstay my welcome listenening through full albums because it sounds so good.

The design of the SL1200 does not suffer from most of the disadvantages of other lesser DD tables.

The platter on the SL1200 is an integral part of the motor design. Basically, they engineered these issues out of the SL1200 design.

EDIT: Read a little on the SL1200 Wiki:

Design strengths
The SL-1200 series was developed as a special project by Technics parent company Matsushita in an attempt to solve problems related to turntable design. The task included minimizing acoustic feedback, unwanted resonances, wow and flutter and speed errors.


This was achieved by designing a heavy plinth (base) made of a non-resonant composite sandwiched between a cast alloy top plate and a solid rubber base. In addition, the adjustable rubber-damped feet insulated against acoustic feedback, which can be a serious problem when operating a turntable in close proximity to loudspeakers (a common situation for DJs).


The drive system designed by Matsushita is direct-drive rather than the more commonly found belt-drive type. This design was developed to reduce wow and flutter and produces a very quiet turntable which, for a direct-drive turntable, has minimal motor and bearing noise, (although the bearing rumble does tend to become characteristic in well-used turntables). This was partially achieved through the fact that the SL1210/1200 was the first (and only) turntable to actually make the platter a part of the motor mechanism as opposed to attaching it via screws or magnets as is the case with most direct-drive turntables. On the underside of the platter a large magnet is placed over the spindle, surrounding the coils and forming the motor drive, thus eliminating loss through power transfer. The SL-1200 utilizes a Frequency Generator Servo Control Quartz Lock system that is claimed to produce the most accurate and consistent speed possible. The system is immune to static and dynamic stylus drag which otherwise cause unwanted speed variances that change the pitch and tempo of the music.[12]

 

[slipperybidness]

A little more reading.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/technics_sl1200_e.html

No turntable has ever been copied more than the SL-1200. Its survival and widespread popularity in the DJ scene recently attracted a number of direct competitors from pro/DJ-sound manufacturers like Numark, Stanton, and Vestax. While these machines allegedly improve on the original functionality (e.g. even higher motor torque, shorter arm to facilitate scratching, smaller outline, ...), none of them are of any appeal to the audiophile community, precisely because they are so single-mindedly targetted at club use.

 

[lovinthehd]

A little more reading.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/technics_sl1200_e.html

No turntable has ever been copied more than the SL-1200. Its survival and widespread popularity in the DJ scene recently attracted a number of direct competitors from pro/DJ-sound manufacturers like Numark, Stanton, and Vestax. While these machines allegedly improve on the original functionality (e.g. even higher motor torque, shorter arm to facilitate scratching, smaller outline, ...), none of them are of any appeal to the audiophile community, precisely because they are so single-mindedly targetted at club use.

Was just going to say that the 1200 wasn't designed for DJ use in the first place....the torque of startup was more than enough for regular home use that it was designed for but still worked well for DJs

 

[Verdinut]

A little more reading.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/technics_sl1200_e.html

No turntable has ever been copied more than the SL-1200. Its survival and widespread popularity in the DJ scene recently attracted a number of direct competitors from pro/DJ-sound manufacturers like Numark, Stanton, and Vestax. While these machines allegedly improve on the original functionality (e.g. even higher motor torque, shorter arm to facilitate scratching, smaller outline, ...), none of them are of any appeal to the audiophile community, precisely because they are so single-mindedly targetted at club use.

If you had the opportunity to verify with the audiophiles, not the ones who believe that, by purchasing expensive equipment that they will definitely have a better sounding system, you might be surprised to find that several of them have bought a turntable made by one of the above mentioned companies.

As for the Audio-Technica AT-LP1240 TT, two of my good friends, who are serious audiophiles, also have at least one. One is retired from the Hi-Fi retail business. He also has two Technics SL1200 which can no longer keep a steady speed, so he replaced them both.

We are several audiophiles who believe that this turntable represents one of the best, if not the best product in its price range.