Sub Questions?

[speakerman39]

Just curious if a single Hsu ULS 15 MK2 sub would give me more output than dual RSL Speedwoofer 10S's in my room? The reason that I ask is that both are the same price. That is, a single ULS 15 MK2 sub or dual Speedwoofer 10S's are $798 delivered!

My room is 1,440 ft. ^3 and my preference is more on music. But, I do want some extension because I do watch a movie every once in a while. Already know just how good the ULS 15 MK2 sub is for both music and HT. But, would dual 10S's give me more? I am NOT too concerned with extreme extension/output as I reside in an apartment. No need to get evicted. I am sure the dual 10S's would be a bit smoother over all, but not sure it they would give me enough extension?

Lastly, how would dual VTF1 MK3's do compared to both dual RSL S10's and/or the ULS 15 MK2? Thus, the VTF1 MK3's would be an additional $64 more. Would it be worth that over both the Speedwoofer 10S's or a single ULS 15 MK2? Just curious is all.

Keep in mind that I am very much concerned about room gain. The ULS 15 MK2 allows for a way to tame that somewhat. It looks like even the VTF1 MK3 does as well. However, the RSL 10S's not so much. Anyways, appreciate any and all advice on this. Thanks!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

Since measurements exist for all of these subwoofers, you can compare them and see for yourself. Here are the RSL Speedwoofer measurements, and measurements for the Hsu subs are on their product pages. To make them comparable with the speedwoofer measurements, just reduce Hsu's measurements by 9 dB. There is also the Audioholics review of the ULS-15 mk2 measurements that do not need to be adjusted to be compared to the RSL measurements. Keep in mind the logarithmic scale these have to be compared at, so +3 dB means a 50% increase in amplitude and +6 dB means a 100% increase in amplitude.

Since you can't adjust the low end of the RSL subs, and you can't use the full force of the ULS-15, I would say get a pair of VTF1s and place them according to what gets you the best response. After you get that response, adjust the subwoofer's operating mode to get the response you want. The VTF1 looks like a lil beast for music, where it has a almost flat maximum output of 110 dB from 40 Hz and up, which is where the bass in most music lay, even a lot of bass heavy electronic music. That is also a lot more maximum output than the Speedwoofers, but if you try to run two subs at 110 dB each for a sum of 116 dB, you will be evicted, so that extra headroom probably isn't an advantage, but the response adjustability certainly is.

 

[Carl08]

I know that I went with two SVS PB-1000s and the result is MUCH better than one PB-2000 (I had one of those in as well). Dual subs, even if smaller, will be better than one big sub in my opinion

 

[speakerman39]

Since measurements exist for all of these subwoofers, you can compare them and see for yourself. Here are the RSL Speedwoofer measurements, and measurements for the Hsu subs are on their product pages. To make them comparable with the speedwoofer measurements, just reduce Hsu's measurements by 9 dB. There is also the Audioholics review of the ULS-15 mk2 measurements that do not need to be adjusted to be compared to the RSL measurements. Keep in mind the logarithmic scale these have to be compared at, so +3 dB means a 50% increase in amplitude and +6 dB means a 100% increase in amplitude.

Since you can't adjust the low end of the RSL subs, and you can't use the full force of the ULS-15, I would say get a pair of VTF1s and place them according to what gets you the best response. After you get that response, adjust the subwoofer's operating mode to get the response you want. The VTF1 looks like a lil beast for music, where it has a almost flat maximum output of 110 dB from 40 Hz and up, which is where the bass in most music lay, even a lot of bass heavy electronic music. That is also a lot more maximum output than the Speedwoofers, but if you try to run two subs at 110 dB each for a sum of 116 dB, you will be evicted, so that extra headroom probably isn't an advantage, but the response adjustability certainly is.

So, you think that dual VTF1 MK3's would work better for my needs than a single ULS 15 MK2? I am sure they both would be very musical, but I preferred the ULS 15 MK2 sub in Max Bass Extension Mode for deep, accurate bass.

Both would have room gain issues which can really muddy up things above 40 hz or so. That part scares me. But, luckily some of that can be tamed with either of the VTF 1 Mk3/ULS 15 Mk2. Can't do that w/the Speedwoofer 10S's. The ability to tighten up the deep bass is very important to me. Dynamic punch/capability is not near as important. Articulation is paramount here.

So Shady would you go with a single ULS 15 MK2 or dual VTF1 MK3's? I am leaning more towards the dual VTF1 MK3's because having duals should also allow for evening out the bass in my room. That would be a big plus in my book. Is there any thing else out there that I should be considering in this price range?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

I know that I went with two SVS PB-1000s and the result is MUCH better than one PB-2000 (I had one of those in as well). Dual subs, even if smaller, will be better than one big sub in my opinion

This is true most of the time, but not always. It all depends on the sub and the room. Since you have dual PB 1000's I bet your preference is on HT right? Extension and lots of output is what you are after right? Me, I am more about music. Extension is only so important. Punchiness and articulation is much more important. I am more than willing to give up a lot of dynamic slam on the low end to gain more distinction in the transient response. If I were to go w/SVS the SB2000's would be more to my liking. But, they offer no way to deal with room gain. That is why the Hsu VTF 1 MK3 looks to be more to my liking. Duals would be splendid inmho.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

So, you think that dual VTF1 MK3's would work better for my needs than a single ULS 15 MK2? I am sure they both would be very musical, but I preferred the ULS 15 MK2 sub in Max Bass Extension Mode for deep, accurate bass.

Both would have room gain issues which can really muddy up things above 40 hz or so. That part scares me. But, luckily some of that can be tamed with either of the VTF 1 Mk3/ULS 15 Mk2. Can't do that w/the Speedwoofer 10S's. The ability to tighten up the deep bass is very important to me. Dynamic punch/capability is not near as important. Articulation is paramount here.

So Shady would you go with a single ULS 15 MK2 or dual VTF1 MK3's? I am leaning more towards the dual VTF1 MK3's because having duals should also allow for evening out the bass in my room. That would be a big plus in my book. Is there any thing else out there that I should be considering in this price range?

Cheers,

Phil

The ULS would have more punch, but two VTF1s will have enough to get you evicted so that doesn't matter. Two VTF1s will be able to get you a better frequency response, and they will allow you to adjust the low end so you can mitigate room gain. You can overdamp them by plugging a port and setting the EQ switch to EQ2 mode, and then turn the Q control to 0.3. If you really want to taper down the low end, just run it in sealed mode on EQ2 with Q set at 0.3.

I don't know if you have a lot of places to put them, but measuring the response of different places will be important to getting the best sound. If you don't already have a measurement microphone, get one. What people call articulation or tightness or many other descriptions of subwoofer sound is so often just frequency response. Audioholics did a couple articles a year or so ago about this, and one was written by Floyd Toole if I recall correctly. Get a flat response and you will be set.

There are other good subs in this price range, but I think the Hsu subs will be best for you since you can customize the low end. The new 12" from Emotiva looks nice, but its performance is a mystery at the moment, whereas the Hsu is a proven performer. The Emotiva would be doing quite well to top the VTF1's measurements. Hsu's own CEA measurements are very much on the conservative side, by the way.

Another subwoofer in this price range that will allow you to adjust the low end is the Elac S10EQ, because it has a parametric equalizer in the smartphone app that you can control it with. However, the variable tuning and Q control of the Hsu is a better solution for controlling the low end since it is a electromechanical solution that optimizes the sub for those operating modes instead of just equalizing the response. The Hsu will be a flat out more powerful sub with deeper extension anyway.

 

[speakerman39]

The ULS would have more punch, but two VTF1s will have enough to get you evicted so that doesn't matter. Two VTF1s will be able to get you a better frequency response, and they will allow you to adjust the low end so you can mitigate room gain. You can overdamp them by plugging a port and setting the EQ switch to EQ2 mode, and then turn the Q control to 0.3. If you really want to taper down the low end, just run it in sealed mode on EQ2 with Q set at 0.3.

I don't know if you have a lot of places to put them, but measuring the response of different places will be important to getting the best sound. If you don't already have a measurement microphone, get one. What people call articulation or tightness or many other descriptions of subwoofer sound is so often just frequency response. Audioholics did a couple articles a year or so ago about this, and one was written by Floyd Toole if I recall correctly. Get a flat response and you will be set.

There are other good subs in this price range, but I think the Hsu subs will be best for you since you can customize the low end. The new 12" from Emotiva looks nice, but its performance is a mystery at the moment, whereas the Hsu is a proven performer. The Emotiva would be doing quite well to top the VTF1's measurements. Hsu's own CEA measurements are very much on the conservative side, by the way.

Another subwoofer in this price range that will allow you to adjust the low end is the Elac S10EQ, because it has a parametric equalizer in the smartphone app that you can control it with. However, the variable tuning and Q control of the Hsu is a better solution for controlling the low end since it is a electromechanical solution that optimizes the sub for those operating modes instead of just equalizing the response. The Hsu will be a flat out more powerful sub with deeper extension anyway.

Getting a better frequency response is more important to me. Accuracy down low is also very important. Really like being able to tweak things further via the Q control. Space is a bit of an issue. Plan to place subs in between my fronts just like I had them before. But, this time I do plan to take some measurements. Will be ordering a CSL UMik 1 very soon. Then, I will also download REW. Will worry about the miniDSP later on. Taking measurements is much more important.

I noticed that the VTF 2 MK5 is not much more than the VTF 1 MK3. Wolud that be a significant upgrade going from the dual VTF 1 MK3's to dual VTF 2 MK5's? Of course, I could then get dual Rythmik L12's cheaper than dual VTF 2 MK5's. Would the L 12's be a better option given the price? Not interested in the Elac.

Lastly, would adding a 3rd VTF 1 MK3 really make much of a difference in my room? I know that it would reduce standing waves even further and thereby smooth out the frequency response more. Would it be worth the investment? Just trying to think ahead some. Eventually, I would like to have (4) of the VTF 1 MK3's. Thanks once again Shady for the info. It really is most appreciated.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

I don't think it's worth it for you to go up to VTF2's. It's a beast, but I don't see how you would be able to take advantage of the headroom. Unless you were planning on eventually moving to a place where you can really blast it. One thing about the VTF2 is that is does work well as a sealed subwoofer. Its measurements and response shape in sealed mode are very good.

Four VTF1s would be a monster system, but I think you should only add them as they are able to benefit the overall response. If you can achieve a good response with two, then no reason to get a third, or if it can be done with a third, no reason to get a fourth. As for the L12s, they look like fine subs, but you are stuck with a sealed alignment with that approach. They will have more output below 20 Hz, but you would need a stack of them for those infrasonic frequencies to be heard, at which point you are facing eviction again. With room gain, those sealed subs might get you decent 20 to 40 Hz output though, but you are depending on the room for that to happen. Your room doesn't sound large, so you will get some room gain certainly, and I am sure they would work well also. The VTF1's will be more capable at 20 - 40 Hz, although you may not end up taking advantage of that capability. I think you would enjoy either sub. What is more important is that you try to get the response flat.

 

[speakerman39]

I don't think it's worth it for you to go up to VTF2's. It's a beast, but I don't see how you would be able to take advantage of the headroom. Unless you were planning on eventually moving to a place where you can really blast it. One thing about the VTF2 is that is does work well as a sealed subwoofer. Its measurements and response shape in sealed mode are very good.

Four VTF1s would be a monster system, but I think you should only add them as they are able to benefit the overall response. If you can achieve a good response with two, then no reason to get a third, or if it can be done with a third, no reason to get a fourth. As for the L12s, they look like fine subs, but you are stuck with a sealed alignment with that approach. They will have more output below 20 Hz, but you would need a stack of them for those infrasonic frequencies to be heard, at which point you are facing eviction again. With room gain, those sealed subs might get you decent 20 to 40 Hz output though, but you are depending on the room for that to happen. Your room doesn't sound large, so you will get some room gain certainly, and I am sure they would work well also. The VTF1's will be more capable at 20 - 40 Hz, although you may not end up taking advantage of that capability. I think you would enjoy either sub. What is more important is that you try to get the response flat.

Very informative Shady. Keep in mind that I am not too concerned at all anything below 25 Hz or so. Actually, that is merely what I am trying to avoid. At times, I can really rock out when our apartment manger is gone. Especially, if she is gone for a full weekend. Even then, I never listen at reference levels. If I do, I don't do that for very long.

The VTF1, VTF2, and/or the L12's all have my attention. Now just need to narrow it down some more. Musicality is a must. Decent extension is preferred for HT purposes. Semi-deep accurate bass is also a must. It looks like all (3) would deliver. The question is, however, which of the (3) would do a better job? The VTF1's would be the most affordable whereas the VTF 2's would be the most expensive. BTW, I also like having extra headroom even if I can't always use it. Thoughts? Thanks!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

If you are asking what is the highest performer, especially for deep bass, that will be the VTF2. The L12 would surely be good, but it won't have the low end performance of these ported subwoofers. However, I think room gain will give you a boost in the low end for any sealed subwoofer, but that goes for the VTF1 and VTF2 in sealed configurations as well, although perhaps not quite as much since there is a filter that rolls off the low end a bit. In your position, I would go for the VTF1s because the VTF2 will likely be overkill, and the L12 won't quite have the deep bass headroom or adjustability of the ported subs, so you are stuck with that response whatever it is. And if you do get significant room gain, sometimes it is fun to boost the really low frequencies to have a deep bass fest on movies like Jurrassic World or Tron Legacy.

 

[KEW]

Just curious if a single Hsu ULS 15 MK2 sub would give me more output than dual RSL Speedwoofer 10S's in my room? The reason that I ask is that both are the same price. That is, a single ULS 15 MK2 sub or dual Speedwoofer 10S's are $798 delivered!

Do you really want to select your sub based on maximum output? I think it is very safe to say either of these options would be ample for your room.

Read the Sound & Vision review of the RSL 10S. Here are his comments in a 5,000cu ft room!

I set my Marantz pre/pro to reference 0 and was shocked by how pronounced the bass was. In fact, I had to double-check that I had disabled my SVS sub—I was amazed that such a small sub could produce so much room-shaking bass. I’ve had other small subs in my room that could play loud, but I haven’t had one that could actually shake my subfloor till now; usually, only the big boys can do that! If one Speedwoofer could produce this much bass, what could two adjoining subs do?
Read more at http://www.soundandvision.com/content/rsl-speakers-speedwoofer-10s-subwoofer-review-page-2#FEDxjyiqKjwGfbae.99

My room is 1,440 ft. ^3 and my preference is more on music. But, I do want some extension because I do watch a movie every once in a while. Already know just how good the ULS 15 MK2 sub is for both music and HT. But, would dual 10S's give me more? I am NOT too concerned with extreme extension/output as I reside in an apartment. No need to get evicted. I am sure the dual 10S's would be a bit smoother over all, but not sure it they would give me enough extension?

LOL, make up your mind!
Both give up nothing for typical music. If you are running the Hsu in the EQ2 mode there is not much difference (see below). If you run the Hsu in EQ1 mode, I fear it will be far too boomy with placement near walls in your room and I do not believe Audyssey will be able to tame it (BTDT)!
However, it is safe to answer your question, "would dual 10S's give me more?" by saying the dual 10S's would give you less extension. But reality check - do you truly need as much as the ULS-15 gave?
If it were me, I would go with dual 10S's. I think the smoothing effect of dual subs is very valuable. You can get lost in a game of "how much extension is too much". Once you get down into the mid-low 20's, your floor does little to contain the sound in your room. What is worse is that the people downstairs will only hear the bass without the rest of the frequencies. This effectively makes the bass stand out as if it is louder. It may just be the way I am wired, but I think I'd rather make the decision to get a sub that isn't going to shake their light fixtures than one that could and be reminded I can't every time I watch a movie. It is a character flaw on my part, but I think I would become resentful of my neighbors, so I would avoid it!
With Dual 10S's ... or the Hsu set to EQ2, you will have good bass for watching movies, but you will not have the final say in LFE. However, get back to music - the 10S is designed specifically, expressly for music sound quality by a guy who has spent his life in audio. The ULS15 is arguably Hsu's best sub for music and I am certain it will do an equally great job. But why spend twice as much for capability you will never use?

Keep in mind that I am very much concerned about room gain. The ULS 15 MK2 allows for a way to tame that somewhat. It looks like even the VTF1 MK3 does as well. However, the RSL 10S's not so much. Anyways, appreciate any and all advice on this.

They are awkward to compare because the scale of both axes are so different, but if you look at the EQ2 FR of the Hsu and the natural response of the Speedwoofer, they are very much similar! Both are about 5-6dB down at around 30Hz and drop off fairly steep after that (the Hsu is down another 10dB at 20Hz and the RSL at around 22Hz).
I think it is safe that, with room gain, either of these would allow Audyssey to work within its design tolerances to flatten in-room frequency response in the bass region.
If you ran the HSU in EQ1 mode, after room-gain, I suspect the bass in the low-mid 20's would exceed Audyssey's ability to tame it (I think the limit is a max of 10dB suppression).

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/hsu-uls-15-mk2/17_ULS_mk2_frequency_response.jpg/image

The Hsu ULS-15 is a very nice sub (especially for its price!) However, knowing the specifics of your room and habits, I believe you would be paying a lot for extension and output only to throttle it back to get good sound in your room! If you keep it in EQ2 (which I believe you will find best - you ran the S1500 with the Room Compensation Knob set to do the same thing). It doesn't make good sense to pay for that extra extension and output, only to eliminate it. Remember, your objective is a flat response in your room, which is definitely not the same as a flat response in an anechoic chamber.

Don't forget that RSL will pay return shipping if you are not satisfied.

But, above all, be honest with yourself. If you want a sub that gives you bragging rights and is quickly recognized by the audio forum world, the RSL 10S does not have the "name drop-ability" of the ULS-15.

HTH, and don't stress over it. You have narrowed it down to two excellent choices. I don't think you will regret either.

 

[speakerman39]

If you are asking what is the highest performer, especially for deep bass, that will be the VTF2. The L12 would surely be good, but it won't have the low end performance of these ported subwoofers. However, I think room gain will give you a boost in the low end for any sealed subwoofer, but that goes for the VTF1 and VTF2 in sealed configurations as well, although perhaps not quite as much since there is a filter that rolls off the low end a bit. In your position, I would go for the VTF1s because the VTF2 will likely be overkill, and the L12 won't quite have the deep bass headroom or adjustability of the ported subs, so you are stuck with that response whatever it is. And if you do get significant room gain, sometimes it is fun to boost the really low frequencies to have a deep bass fest on movies like Jurrassic World or Tron Legacy.

The L12's not having the lower end output is exactly what I am looking for. Room gain will help in that regard. As you have mentioned, not exactly sure how much. The L12 does have some adjustability. To me, it looks to be a safer bet for me. But, there is no denying that both VTF 1/VTF2 offers a lot for the money. As such, it looks like it is merely down to the dual VTF 1's or the L12's/RSL S10's. I agree in that the VTF2's would be a bit too much and really not what I am looking for. Thanks Shady!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Do you really want to select your sub based on maximum output? I think it is very safe to say either of these options would be ample for your room.

Read the Sound & Vision review of the RSL 10S. Here are his comments in a 5,000cu ft room!



LOL, make up your mind!
Both give up nothing for typical music. If you are running the Hsu in the EQ2 mode there is not much difference (see below). If you run the Hsu in EQ1 mode, I fear it will be far too boomy with placement near walls in your room and I do not believe Audyssey will be able to tame it (BTDT)!
However, it is safe to answer your question, "would dual 10S's give me more?" by saying the dual 10S's would give you less extension. But reality check - do you truly need as much as the ULS-15 gave?
If it were me, I would go with dual 10S's. I think the smoothing effect of dual subs is very valuable. You can get lost in a game of "how much extension is too much". Once you get down into the mid-low 20's, your floor does little to contain the sound in your room. What is worse is that the people downstairs will only hear the bass without the rest of the frequencies. This effectively makes the bass stand out as if it is louder. It may just be the way I am wired, but I think I'd rather make the decision to get a sub that isn't going to shake their light fixtures than one that could and be reminded I can't every time I watch a movie. It is a character flaw on my part, but I think I would become resentful of my neighbors, so I would avoid it!
With Dual 10S's ... or the Hsu set to EQ2, you will have good bass for watching movies, but you will not have the final say in LFE. However, get back to music - the 10S is designed specifically, expressly for music sound quality by a guy who has spent his life in audio. The ULS15 is arguably Hsu's best sub for music and I am certain it will do an equally great job. But why spend twice as much for capability you will never use?


They are awkward to compare because the scale of both axes are so different, but if you look at the EQ2 FR of the Hsu and the natural response of the Speedwoofer, they are very much similar! Both are about 5-6dB down at around 30Hz and drop off fairly steep after that (the Hsu is down another 10dB at 20Hz and the RSL at around 22Hz).
I think it is safe that, with room gain, either of these would allow Audyssey to work within its design tolerances to flatten in-room frequency response in the bass region.
If you ran the HSU in EQ1 mode, after room-gain, I suspect the bass in the low-mid 20's would exceed Audyssey's ability to tame it (I think the limit is a max of 10dB suppression).

http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/hsu-uls-15-mk2/17_ULS_mk2_frequency_response.jpg/image

The Hsu ULS-15 is a very nice sub (especially for its price!) However, knowing the specifics of your room and habits, I believe you would be paying a lot for extension and output only to throttle it back to get good sound in your room! If you keep it in EQ2 (which I believe you will find best - you ran the S1500 with the Room Compensation Knob set to do the same thing). It doesn't make good sense to pay for that extra extension and output, only to eliminate it. Remember, your objective is a flat response in your room, which is definitely not the same as a flat response in an anechoic chamber.

Don't forget that RSL will pay return shipping if you are not satisfied.

But, above all, be honest with yourself. If you want a sub that gives you bragging rights and is quickly recognized by the audio forum world, the RSL 10S does not have the "name drop-ability" of the ULS-15.

HTH, and don't stress over it. You have narrowed it down to two excellent choices. I don't think you will regret either.

Kurt, Dr. Hsu claims that the VTF1/VTF2/ULS 15 MK2 can offer great accuracy down low but at the expense of output/volume. I am not looking for vast output/volume per se, but accuracy is an absolute must. I am not wanting anything to play below 25 Hz or so. That is low enough for my needs even with HT.

With music being my priority I feel like the L12's would be a better fit. Just wished that Rythmik included a better driver. I could opt for a F12 instead, but would not be able to get duals. That is why I am still considering the RSL S10's and both the VTF1/VTF2. The S10's have output down to 20 Hz which is not what I am looking for and no way to take it out. With room gain that is going to create some problems in my room. However, the L12's, VTF1/VTF2 allows for some adjustment in dealing with very low bass below 25 Hz or so. The idea is to keep things tight, punchy, and articulate after room gain has entered the equation so to speak.

I like the idea of going duals. Prefer 12's to 10's. So, I need to narrow it down some more. I think that it all comes down to the Hsu VTF2 MK5's, Rythmik L12's, and/or the SpeedWoofer 10S's. Really don't need a 15" inmho. Emotiva has the Airmotiv subs will be shipping soon. Both the S10/S12 look very good to me. However, having a down-firing active driver creates other problems for me. So, that may eliminate them altogether. The Speedwoofer S10's have no adjustability. So, that leaves the VTF 2 MK5's or the L12's. Not sure which way to go here though. Any advice here from this point guys? Sorry, but trying to cover all of my bases this go around. Thanks for all of your help guys!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

I wouldn't worry about specs, I would think about results. The VTF1s may only have 10" woofers, but they are putting out passing CEA-2010 measurements of 110+ dB at 40 Hz and above. That is something that many commercial 12" subs are not even doing. That is the range of music and it means they are going to be very linear and very low distortion. They also have decent low end which can come in handy for movie night. They have way more adjustability than the L12s as well. You have five different ways to mechanically attenuate the low end: sealed/EQ1, sealed/EQ2, one port open/EQ1, one port open/EQ2, two ports open/EQ2. Combine that with the Q control, and you have at least 15 different types of low end rolloffs to choose from. The Rythmik L12 give you three choices, but you would only ever want to use the low music mode; the other two modes don't make much sense for a sealed 12" unless used as a rumble filter for vinyl playback.

 

[speakerman39]

I wouldn't worry about specs, I would think about results. The VTF1s may only have 10" woofers, but they are putting out passing CEA-2010 measurements of 110+ dB at 40 Hz and above. That is something that many commercial 12" subs are not even doing. That is the range of music and it means they are going to be very linear and very low distortion. They also have decent low end which can come in handy for movie night. They have way more adjustability than the L12s as well. You have five different ways to mechanically attenuate the low end: sealed/EQ1, sealed/EQ2, one port open/EQ1, one port open/EQ2, two ports open/EQ2. Combine that with the Q control, and you have at least 15 different types of low end rolloffs to choose from. The Rythmik L12 give you three choices, but you would only ever want to use the low music mode; the other two modes don't make much sense for a sealed 12" unless used as a rumble filter for vinyl playback.

Yeah it is looking very good for the VTF 1's for sure. Dr. Hsu really did his homework so to speak. If you stop and think about it, the performance of the VTF 1 is amazing! Plus, duals are less expensive with more tweaking capabilities. It is a win win for me. So, the VTF2's would also be a win win for me no? Of course, they are more expensive too. Musically speaking, would the VTF 2's make that much of an improvement when compared to the VTF1's? I know down low that the VTF 2's would. But musically, not that much of a difference?

Cheers,

Phil

 

[shadyJ]

Musically speaking, they will both likely be very linear subwoofers. The VTF2 has more headroom and deeper extension, but you will not run into any serious distortion from either of them unless you blast them in deep frequencies. The THD in every mode on the VTF2 stay below 10% at 40 Hz and above in long term sweeps, even at the very highest drive level. As I said, this is the range of music. At 90 dB sweeps levels, THD hovers around 1%, so essentially non-existent. That, in combination with their flat response, means this sub accurately reproduces whatever signal you feed them. I expect the VTF1 to behave similarly, but scaled down in SPL. Room acoustics are going to be what screws up the sound, not the subs themselves. This is why placement and calibration are so crucial. So many people think they can get a better bass sound by just buying a bigger and better subwoofer, but room acoustics and frequency response dominates the sound.

 

[speakerman39]

Musically speaking, they will both likely be very linear subwoofers. The VTF2 has more headroom and deeper extension, but you will not run into any serious distortion from either of them unless you blast them in deep frequencies. The THD in every mode on the VTF2 stay below 10% at 40 Hz and above in long term sweeps, even at the very highest drive level. As I said, this is the range of music. At 90 dB sweeps levels, THD hovers around 1%, so essentially non-existent. That, in combination with their flat response, means this sub accurately reproduces whatever signal you feed them. I expect the VTF1 to behave similarly, but scaled down in SPL. Room acoustics are going to be what screws up the sound, not the subs themselves. This is why placement and calibration are so crucial. So many people think they can get a better bass sound by just buying a bigger and better subwoofer, but room acoustics and frequency response dominates the sound.

I see. Well, it looks like the VTF 1's may be my next purchase. Going to read up on it some more before taking the plunge. Need to order a CSL UMik 1 as well. Plan to take some measurements this go around. No real hurry in getting a miniDSP. Want to learn more about REW before I do. Thanks once again Shady!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

The S10's have output down to 20 Hz which is not what I am looking for and no way to take it out. With room gain that is going to create some problems in my room.

I don't know what you are looking at, but the S10 is down 15dB at 20Hz which is about the same as the ULS15 in EQ2 mode. I'm not sure any of the options you are looking at offer a better response for your situation. They have more options, but if the other options are only giving you more bass in the low 20's, what is the point?

 

[speakerman39]

I don't know what you are looking at, but the S10 is down 15dB at 20Hz which is about the same as the ULS15 in EQ2 mode. I'm not sure any of the options you are looking at offer a better response for your situation. They have more options, but if the other options are only giving you more bass in the low 20's, what is the point?

I read in the review that the 10S had usable output down to 20 Hz. There is not a lot of info regarding the specifics of the 10S. Have owned the ULS 15 MK2 so I am fully aware of its capabilities. You had mentioned something about costing twice as much. I have no plans to go dual ULS 15 Mk2 subs. My point was that dual 10S's cost the exact same price as a single ULS 15 MK2. I should have been more specific about that. However, dual 10S's would smooth the in room frequency response more.That is something that has my attention. Still have not made up my mind just yet. But, I am getting closer. Appreciate both your's and Shady's help.

Cheers,

Phil

 

[KEW]

I read in the review that the 10S had usable output down to 20 Hz.

It does, since room-gain will likely add close to 10dB, but if you are concerned about the lack of control to tame it, my point is the 10S has the natural response which is equivalent to the ULS-15 tamed, but you avoid the price of the ULS15 because you are not paying for the additional capability plus the control to then counteract it (which makes the ULS15 cost twice as much on a per unit basis).