Home Theater - Major Issue

[AVQuest]

Ok, here's my traumatic experience...Finished our basement recently, received several compliments on the finish, its like a never seen before basement... great till here..had 9 speakers installed in total
The Set-up:
Main Sorround Sound:
3 in In-Wall speakers: Sorround Left, Sorround Right & Center Channel - all Bowers & Wilkins
2 In-Ceiling Speakers: Rear Right & Rear Left - all Bowers & Wilkins
1 Wireless Subwoofer

Zone2:
4 In-Ceiling Speakers: 2 in hallway, 1 above the bar & 1 across it
Support:
1 Receiver - Poineer Elite VSX-90
1 Zone Selector - Rocket Fish brand
1 Power Cleanser for power managemet
1 Harmony Remote (RFID)
Room Dimensions - Main Area: 8 ft high ceiling, 10' Wide, 30 ft in length approx
Tested the above setup multiple times, was working great.. had a party with 50 people in the basement, i played the music via Bluetooth - Boooooooooom, the receiver blows up within 10 seconds of starting the music (remeber, i tested all the songs from my youtube playlists several times)....
Action: Replaced the receiver. Got a new receiver.....had another gathering, now the speakers blew up
Action: Replaced the speakers, returned the zone selector and upgraded to Pioneer Elite SC-95 9.2 channel receiver... all new speakers, top of the line receiver - should be all set right? wrong... had 15 people over for another gathering, to my embarrassment, the speakers were producing a popping sound (just like popcorn popps)...
Action: Called the basement contractor to verify wiring - they were all perfect(as per him)
Frankly, I'm tired of running around troubleshooting the problem, with efforts invain , could somebody PLEASE help me out: whats it that i'm doing wrong and what should be the ideal equipment given the above setup... Any suggestions, greatly appreciated..

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok, here's my traumatic experience...Finished our basement recently, received several compliments on the finish, its like a never seen before basement... great till here..had 9 speakers installed in total
The Set-up:
Main Sorround Sound:
3 in In-Wall speakers: Sorround Left, Sorround Right & Center Channel - all Bowers & Wilkins
2 In-Ceiling Speakers: Rear Right & Rear Left - all Bowers & Wilkins
1 Wireless Subwoofer

Zone2:
4 In-Ceiling Speakers: 2 in hallway, 1 above the bar & 1 across it
Support:
1 Receiver - Poineer Elite VSX-90
1 Zone Selector - Rocket Fish brand
1 Power Cleanser for power managemet
1 Harmony Remote (RFID)
Room Dimensions - Main Area: 8 ft high ceiling, 10' Wide, 30 ft in length approx
Tested the above setup multiple times, was working great.. had a party with 50 people in the basement, i played the music via Bluetooth - Boooooooooom, the receiver blows up within 10 seconds of starting the music (remeber, i tested all the songs from my youtube playlists several times)....
Action: Replaced the receiver. Got a new receiver.....had another gathering, now the speakers blew up
Action: Replaced the speakers, returned the zone selector and upgraded to Pioneer Elite SC-95 9.2 channel receiver... all new speakers, top of the line receiver - should be all set right? wrong... had 15 people over for another gathering, to my embarrassment, the speakers were producing a popping sound (just like popcorn popps)...
Action: Called the basement contractor to verify wiring - they were all perfect(as per him)
Frankly, I'm tired of running around troubleshooting the problem, with efforts invain , could somebody PLEASE help me out: whats it that i'm doing wrong and what should be the ideal equipment given the above setup... Any suggestions, greatly appreciated..

There is not really enough information about your post to be precise about your problem.

However you do not mention your main speakers in other words the left and right fronts.

We do not know the model numbers of the speakers involved.

However the failures have been in party type situations.

I suspect this is an impedance power issue.

In general receivers make very poor high power continuous devices. They are also lousy devices for powering speakers in multiple zones.

Party situations are also very hard on speakers. It is highly unlikely in wall and ceiling speakers are up to being "party animals."

I would advise using external amplification to all speakers and using the the pre outs or using a pre/pro rather than a receiver.

I suspect however from the brief note about your application, that for your parties you need much bigger and more powerful speakers and amps. This gets very expensive.

If you are not willing to do this, then cut the parties and enjoy the pleasures of family AV time at more moderate volumes.

 

[AVQuest]

Firstly, thanks for the quick response...Ok, now i totally understand. So, i put together my entire HTS configuration in the attached file... Word files are not allowed(has pics embeded), so uploaded text file. With the setup i have, i'm looking for advice on Receivers & compatible Amplifier(if it all is required). Appreciate your responses...

 

[TheWarrior]

Firstly, thanks for the quick response...Ok, now i totally understand. So, i put together my entire HTS configuration in the attached file... Word files are not allowed(has pics embeded), so uploaded text file. With the setup i have, i'm looking for advice on Receivers & compatible Amplifier(if it all is required). Appreciate your responses...

Cool, what you have is intended for Home Theater - Ideally, sustained listening levels of 70-90 dB.

If you are trying to get 4 in-ceiling speakers to play louder than 50 people in a house, that will never happen reliably.

If you intend to keep hosting loud parties, you will need a system dedicated for them. This will include active PA monitors so that you can rock the house regardless of the number of people. Recommendations require you to define a budget.

Good luck, and protect your hearing!

 

[lovinthehd]

WTF is a power cleanser? That could be part of the issue. You're running basically too much off a simple avr, you need more ampifier for all those speakers...an avr alone is not the best tool for the job you're asking of it.

 

[AVQuest]

Power Cleanser - is for power management (more like a surge protector), at least that's what the guy who sold me the HTS claims... its leart that i need an amplifier.....now the question is what type of receiver & amlifier i should buy to support all the 10 speakes i have? as i do not have much knowledge in this area, how do i select an amplifier? any suggestions plz?

 

[lovinthehd]

Not all that familiar with your avr but what pre-outs does it have for external amps? How are the speakers wired currently?

You might think about something like this https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/679646-REG/Behringer_EPQ304_EuroPower_EPQ304_4_Channel_Power.html

Maybe 2 of these instead https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/373631-REG/Behringer_A500_A500_2_Channel_Rackmount.html

 

[AVQuest]

I just returned my Pioneer Elite SC-95 receiver...considering Yamaha Aventage RX-A1060BL receiver - but do not know what pre-outs it has.... the amplifier you recommended would work the Yamaha Aventage?

 

[TLS Guy]

Firstly, thanks for the quick response...Ok, now i totally understand. So, i put together my entire HTS configuration in the attached file... Word files are not allowed(has pics embeded), so uploaded text file. With the setup i have, i'm looking for advice on Receivers & compatible Amplifier(if it all is required). Appreciate your responses...

Thank you for that info. It confirms what I feared. You have had a background system installed. This is not in anyway a high power system suitable for entertaining. If you use it like you have you will blow it up every time.

My second point is that a ceiling installation like that makes a very poor AV system. The sound is just coming from the wrong places. Powerful in walls are a potential solution for the front. Ceiling speakers are just about acceptable for surrounds and as background speakers in zone 2.

However, powerful free standing speakers for the front three will be the best solution for your application.

In addition your sub is woefully inadequate.

I know you have taken advice, but you have been advised badly by whoever sold you and installed your equipment.

Now your receiver will be stressed by what you want to do. Your receiver has preouts and I strongly recommend powerful external amplification for the front three.

Before going into equipment recommendations appropriate for your application, we need a budget and wife acceptance factors.

I should let you know that I am on an extended visit to the UK, so I will be on GMT until September 24. I'm leaving from my brother's place in Kent shortly and driving to my wife's sister and brother in law in a few hours in Herefordshire. I will be going to Bristol midweek and going up to Scotland next week end. So my replies will be tardy.

 

[lovinthehd]

I just returned my Pioneer Elite SC-95 receiver...considering Yamaha Aventage RX-A1060BL receiver - but do not know what pre-outs it has.... the amplifier you recommended would work the Yamaha Aventage?

I don't know, you should check the manuals for the units you're interested in to see what speakers/zones they provide pre-outs for.

 

[TLS Guy]

I just returned my Pioneer Elite SC-95 receiver...considering Yamaha Aventage RX-A1060BL receiver - but do not know what pre-outs it has.... the amplifier you recommended would work the Yamaha Aventage?

Before buying any more equipment, we need to get the speakers sorted out and then decide how to power the system.

Your major issue is a totally inadequate speakers system for your needs. That needs sorting first.

 

[KenM10759]

Listen to TLS Guy, he knows.

It seems to me you have enough ceiling speakers to put a pretty healthy load on a receiver at moderate levels. Because they don't project sound particularly well except for people standing under them, you turn it up louder for parties. Now you're really taxing the receiver.

You can get more powerful electronics for the speakers by going to a receiver or pre-processor with all channels out via pre-amp outputs and get separate amplifiers for each speaker or smaller groups of speakers. Money would be better spent getting more effective traditional speakers that project sound forward.

 

[highfigh]

First, don't expect small in-ceiling speakers to produce high output levels and second, don't expect an AV receiver to power them to party levels, especially when the power passes through a speaker selector- remember, the amplifier is powering all of the speakers, so the power is shared by all of them and that means 100Watts going to four speakers equals 25Watts to each one. A 150W/channel power amp won't make an appreciable difference, either- the way we hear doesn't mean that 50% more power will be 50% louder, it's going to be barely louder.

It's unfortunate that more speaker selectors with volume controls don't have a way to connect a multi-channel amplifier because this would provide more Watts/channel without the need for a huge power amp. If the speakers receive the signal from the Rocketfish zone selector and have a volume control in each area, I would recommend removing the zone selector and using a multi-channel amplifier, instead. Several companies sell them, with varying output power and quality. Your budget and space will determine what you can use. If you have enough space, you could use the Behringer amps- they're decent and not expensive and I have used the A500 in bars without a problem and one of the bartenders just couldn't seem to play it loud enough.

Make sure the speakers in the other zones DO NOT deceive full-range signal. There's no reason to fed them anything in the 20Hz-40Hz range since they A) can't produce those frequencies well (if at all) and B) they won't last long if you do. Also, it won't sound good at high levels. If the speakers are far apart, there's not even a good reason to use a stereo signal, so an amplifier that has a Mono/Stereo switch (without putting it in Bridge Mode) will help to make sure all speakers produce the same sound and provide all of the information from both channels. If you can't find/afford an amp with this feature, Edcor sells a stereo to mono convertor that isolates the two channels and this would be connected ahead of the amplifier's input- it's less than $50.

 

[AVQuest]

Can't thank you all enough for the very valuable and Knowledgeable advise & suggestions... i realized my mistake... shouldn't have gone all-in-Ceiling speakers for the need i have... i realized my limited knowledge in this area and went with a professional consultants advise (paid service-Best buy Magnolia&Geek Squad)...unfortunately, it was never brought to my attention on how my setup was not appropriate for the intended use.. How i wish, should i've consulted in this forum prior to my music system purchase, where AV expertise is impeccable, folks who helped me out here, would have steered me out of this dire straits....Thanks again, you guys simply rock.... will fix my setup with aforementioned suggestions and revert back with feedback....
Volveré!

 

[highfigh]

Can't thank you all enough for the very valuable and Knowledgeable advise & suggestions... i realized my mistake... shouldn't have gone all-in-Ceiling speakers for the need i have... i realized my limited knowledge in this area and went with a professional consultants advise (paid service-Best buy Magnolia&Geek Squad)...unfortunately, it was never brought to my attention on how my setup was not appropriate for the intended use.. How i wish, should i've consulted in this forum prior to my music system purchase, where AV expertise is impeccable, folks who helped me out here, would have steered me out of this dire straits....Thanks again, you guys simply rock.... will fix my setup with aforementioned suggestions and revert back with feedback....
Volveré!

Some in-ceiling speakers sound good, but they may need some kind of enclosure behind, to help them perform better than in a long joist space. In almost all cases where in-ceiling or in-wall speakers are used (or most small speakers), I would recommend using some kind of high pass filter to prevent bad performance and damage.

 

[AVQuest]

Some update - A Best Buy AV Consultant visited my place and here's what he proposed and claims should potentially solve my problem...
Main surround (5.1 plus Sub) will be powered and controlled by a high end receiver(will know by eod today)
Of other 4 speakers in other rooms, he's proposing 2 Sonos Connect AMP's (2 speakers on each AMP).
So the receiver will still be the brain and will send signals to AMP's for the zone2 speakers(4)... is this a good recommendation?

 

[BMXTRIX]

God, that's crap.

How do you listen to music at parties?

What do you want from the system?

Do you want it to sound like a nightclub? Do you want to dance to this music at levels that make hearing people speak difficult?

I've run into clients who have said to me flat out "I just want it to be fairly loud and sound good." - then after installation, they cranked it up all the way, and yelled at me "It can't go any louder?"

Don't BS on this. If you want it to sound like a nightclub in your home, then make that decision and stop with the background music setup.

I finally had a client who I installed over half a dozen in-ceiling speakers, with dedicated amplification complain it wasn't loud enough. So, I got him some live sound speakers, and they are loud enough to make his neighbors complain.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Speakers/ci/12322/N/3992462025

He's finally happy.

This isn't an easy discussion to have with a client who isn't upfront about their real world expectations. The idea that you can get the sound of a club, using speakers 1/100th of what a club uses is unrealistic and is just impossible. If you want to sound like the pros, then use what the pros use.

In-ceiling speakers are not going to cut it. In my testing with a client, B&W in-ceiling speakers really didn't sound any better than the Sonance 8" 3-way speakers I installed. The Sonance speakers were louder, and sounded better to the client, yet never would reach anywhere near the volume levels that the client wanted.

Do you need dedicated control of the two additional zones? Do you have a need/want for the features tha the Sonos units provide? Is the 60 watts that the Sonos provides anywhere near enough? I would just get a dedicated amp for your in-ceiling speakers, and keep the volume down on them. I would recommend swapping out the 6" speakers for 8" 3-ways to get a bit more oomph from them, but accept that you are going to be limited on sound levels because of what they are.

 

[AVQuest]

BMXTRIX - I agree with you reasoning.. However, i'm trying to resolve the temporary problem, that is, my speakers are blowing up when i turn up the music a lil bit (not to a sound level where neighbors are complaining). With the 2 AMP's, it should first solve that problem. As the second step, i would add more power should there be a need, will asses after the AMP's are installed and measuring the performance.. i'm not sure if its the correct approach, but this is the plan as of now... do you feel i'm going in the wrong direction?

 

[TLS Guy]

BMXTRIX - I agree with you reasoning.. However, i'm trying to resolve the temporary problem, that is, my speakers are blowing up when i turn up the music a lil bit (not to a sound level where neighbors are complaining). With the 2 AMP's, it should first solve that problem. As the second step, i would add more power should there be a need, will asses after the AMP's are installed and measuring the performance.. i'm not sure if its the correct approach, but this is the plan as of now... do you feel i'm going in the wrong direction?

You are going in the wrong direction. This will not solve the problem. Your speakers will still blow up.

Your primary problem is the speakers not the amps. Until you address the speaker issue, there is no point in proceeding with changes.

In any installation you select the speakers first and the decision about amps follows from that.

 

[Eng-399]

To go a cheap route go diy build some great sounding speakers like the fusion 15's from diysg and then build two pa460 Dayton audio pro audio subs just for party's or buy the monoprice pa speakers and call it a day the room. It will be so loud when playing these! I've heard these several times at my house during my ht get togethers. It will sound like a club in there. Or just go with what everyone's saying which is really good advice. I know no one wants big ugly speakers out In The open but with 50+ friends down there you really need something loud. Your party's sound like fun btw!