new receiver OR subwoofer

[Pogre]

title says it all. this is my current setup:

front left/right speakers = deftech sm 55's
center = deftech cs 8040hd
surround speakers = deftech promonitor 1000's
subwoofers = 2 klipsch rpw 10's
receiver = denon avr s510bt

I'm gonna be able to free up some funds in a week or 2. budget is gonna be around 5-700 dollars. I've been wanting a new sub, but truly good ones are expensive and I would need something to replace the 2 that I currently have. so it will have to be a pretty impressive sub.

I'm okay with the receiver I have, but would like some more power and a couple extra channels (7.1 or 2 vs the 5.2 I have now).

I've scratched the surface on subs and receivers by reading reviews and watching threads here and i'd really lIke to do both, but i know my budget prolly won't alow it. I know you guys collectively have so much more info than I do right now and am hoping for some great suggestions. that 5-700 dollar budget is as much as I could spend, but less would be even better, though I'm quite aware that this is a very expensive hobby... sigh.

thanks in advance guys!

 

[lovinthehd]

Subwoofer(s) and I'd still think duals even if you can afford only one at first. For $700 you can diy a nice set of duals, tho. Different receiver will normally not have significantly different power (keep in mind it takes a doubling of power to gain merely 3dB spl); you'd need to go to an outboard amp to gain significant difference in power (so if you really think more power is needed then get an avr with pre-outs so you can add an amp).

The only ".2" avrs that are meaningful are those that can set separate delay/level for the two pre-outs, the other ".2" avrs can be matched by a ".1" avr simply using a y-splitter cable.

 

[Pogre]

yeah, I figured out the .2 thing. that's how they market it, so that's what I called it. I know a .1 with a splitter will give me the same thing.

and that's right... you're a diy guy. where should I look first if I decide to go that route?

 

[lovinthehd]

Maybe check out this thread or this thread, or instead of the driver in the second being closed out, maybe this one. Can you build your own box or would a ready to assemble flatpack be more interesting? Might check out www.diysoundgroup.com.

 

[Pogre]

I'll check those links out. I could build my own, but ready to assemble would be nice. if I go the sub route I'd really like to stay with 2 of them.

 

[lovinthehd]

Building your own box is more cost effective and gives you more flexibility on necessary box size/port for tuning if going ported. Parts-express also has driver/box bundles that can be a good deal.

 

[Pogre]

I built my own subwoofer boxes for my car stereo a few...? 15 or so years ago. just basic 1 cubic foot sealed boxes. nothing fancy, but they worked. for my home I'm definitely gonna want to put some time into the project and make it (them, still gunning for two 12" subs to replace the two 10's) look nice as well as functional. this is where I would need some help.

for my car I just needed to screw the woofer into my box and have a small hole for the cable to come out. I used an old external zapco mono amp that had its own xovers settings on it. after that it was plug and play.

I checked your links and some of it is intimidating, with all the spl measuring, needing to tune it, set up the amp and xovers correctly... is it not just build the box, install the parts, then plug it in and go? some of this is over my head currently and I need to study up from the looks of it. I thought it would just be x cubic feet, srew and glue everything, then call it a day.

like, I'm not sure what driver to buy, which amps to look at... do I need xovers or are they built into most subwoofer amps, how to tune a box...? I can build it, but can I tweak it in? how much is really involved?

I'm pretty evenly split between music and movies/tv as far as what I'm using it for. the music is more important to me. I listen to a pretty wide variety of music, but some of it has some very deep bass that my 10's aren't quite hitting. as far as home theater I'm very happy with it.

 

[lovinthehd]

A sealed box is easier to build, the only tuning is the final net internal volume; my first subs have been sealed to make it easier on my beginner woodworking skills. Bigger boxes will need some internal bracing, so a bit more than a basic box but not by much. Vented/ported subs will take some calculation/modeling for a given port tuning, but the nice thing about these proven designs like I linked is that's already been done for you. Here's another series of sub with much of the legwork already done for you.

You should have dsp to set a high pass filter to protect the driver if you go ported/vented; for a sealed sub dsp is nice to pull the bottom up a bit due to natural roll off of a sealed design.

You don't need a separate crossover unit if your avr can handle that part but a miniDSP can handle both the dsp/crossover duties if needed or a Behringer iNuke DSP series amp if you want it combined with the amp (there are other amps with such, but Behringer is pretty popular for a low cost solution).

I use Crown XLS amps with my sealed subs, and even just Audyssey will do a decent job of eq'g them (but I have a minidsp for setup as well). Crown and Behringer are popular amp choices in any case. I'd read thru the DIY sections here and at AVS and diyaudio.com for some background/guidance.

IMO subs don't care if its music or HT, accurate reproduction is accurate reproduction....

 

[Pogre]

A sealed box is easier to build, the only tuning is the final net internal volume; my first subs have been sealed to make it easier on my beginner woodworking skills. Bigger boxes will need some internal bracing, so a bit more than a basic box but not by much. Vented/ported subs will take some calculation/modeling for a given port tuning, but the nice thing about these proven designs like I linked is that's already been done for you. Here's another series of sub with much of the legwork already done for you.

You should have dsp to set a high pass filter to protect the driver if you go ported/vented; for a sealed sub dsp is nice to pull the bottom up a bit due to natural roll off of a sealed design.

You don't need a separate crossover unit if your avr can handle that part but a miniDSP can handle both the dsp/crossover duties if needed or a Behringer iNuke DSP series amp if you want it combined with the amp (there are other amps with such, but Behringer is pretty popular for a low cost solution).

I use Crown XLS amps with my sealed subs, and even just Audyssey will do a decent job of eq'g them (but I have a minidsp for setup as well). Crown and Behringer are popular amp choices in any case. I'd read thru the DIY sections here and at AVS and diyaudio.com for some background/guidance.

IMO subs don't care if its music or HT, accurate reproduction is accurate reproduction....

some very helpful info. thanks man.

I'm thinking sealed is the way to go. it would be easier and from what I've been reading, more suited for music. I know sealed won't play quite as deep, but I'm thinking sealed 12's will still outperform my current setup. I have a little more researching to do. I'll prolly be back with more questions. thanks again.

 

[cel4145]

You could go with these ported boxes and build yourself some nice 15" subs, no serious cutting required
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/ported-subwoofers-1/15-cube.html

Or if that's too big, here's a 12" http://www.diysoundgroup.com/ported-subwoofers-1/4-ported-sub-flat-pack.html.

They already specify the drivers that go with them. I think you'd do fine

 

[lovinthehd]

some very helpful info. thanks man.

I'm thinking sealed is the way to go. it would be easier and from what I've been reading, more suited for music. I know sealed won't play quite as deep, but I'm thinking sealed 12's will still outperform my current setup. I have a little more researching to do. I'll prolly be back with more questions. thanks again.

The music thing with sealed is more urban myth, a good sub is a good sub. Sealed actually can play deeper with a small room and cabin gain, as you're not limited by port tuning (usually below port tuning response drop is much steeper). Multiple sealed can dig very deep, what many seeking ULF go for (but if primarily for music depends what you like in the way of music, as much music doesn't go below 30hz).

 

[Pogre]

I listen to a lot of stuff. some blues traveler, pink Floyd or Dave Matthews when the mood strikes me. I really like prog rock/metal and a lot of 90's heavy music. bands like Korn and tool. Korn incorporates a lot of deep bass and tool experiments a little with it too. I've never measured how low, but my 10's get really weak during some songs where it hits pretty deep.

*edit: I did a little digging on crown xls. like, a 2 channel amp? would it power 2 subs effectively? I see the power rating is at 4 ohms. would I use dual voice coil woofers?

http://www.parts-express.com/crown-xls-1502-drivecore-2-power-amplifier-2-x-525w-at-4-ohms--245-508

 

[lovinthehd]

I listen to a lot of stuff. some blues traveler, pink Floyd or Dave Matthews when the mood strikes me. I really like prog rock/metal and a lot of 90's heavy music. bands like Korn and tool. Korn incorporates a lot of deep bass and tool experiments a little with it too. I've never measured how low, but my 10's get really weak during some songs where it hits pretty deep.

*edit: I did a little digging on crown xls. like, a 2 channel amp? would it power 2 subs effectively? I see the power rating is at 4 ohms. would I use dual voice coil woofers?

http://www.parts-express.com/crown-xls-1502-drivecore-2-power-amplifier-2-x-525w-at-4-ohms--245-508

I have four of those amps (gen 1, so the 1500, but same basic amp), have run both as bridged for one sub and as two channel for two subs using dual 2ohm voice coil drivers (Stereo Integrity HT18D2s) wired for 4 ohm. This is one source for wiring diagrams http://www.crutchfield.com/S-TpP9KZEv9Ma/learn/learningcenter/car/subwoofers_wiring.html

Likely there's not too much deep bass in much of your music but its always nice for the subs to be able to play something you choose....you can analyze your tunes to find out what the range is with something like the Audacity software. Might look for threads concentrating on bass content like this one.

 

[Pogre]

okay, I've made it this far.
2 of these.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/sealed-subwoofer-flatpacks/2-sub-flat-pack.html
this amp.
http://www.parts-express.com/crown-xls-1502-drivecore-2-power-amplifier-2-x-525w-at-4-ohms--245-508

now, drivers and a dsp? is 2 cubic ft pretty standard for a 12" sub, or do different drivers all need different enclosures? I haven't ruled out building my own, but a flat pack sure is inviting. I'm not looking for sub sonic necessarily. I think you're right in that most of what I listen to doesn't hit that low, but I want something that's well into the upper 20 to lower 30 hz range with some authority.

 

[lovinthehd]

The ideal size enclosure will vary with driver and your goals. If you model the driver using its T/S (Thiele/Small) parameters with software (like winISD or BassBox 6 Pro) you can see how the size of the box with a given amount of power will affect response/output. Those flatpacks say they're meant for the Dayton Reference 12 or Ultimax 12. You might note that those same flatpacks are offered thru Parts-express as bundles with the driver, too, sometimes as a better deal (same supplier of flatpacks in the background). The sizes they're offering are probably somewhat a compromise for size, better performance can likely be had by a slightly larger box.

There's a lot of information on the pages for the drivers at parts-express.com, just scroll down. Also check out other resources they have available on their site as well, including their forums, for lots of good information. Here's the Ultimax 12 page for example http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-um12-22-12-ultimax-dvc-subwoofer-2-ohms-per-coil--295-512

What are you going to use for a terminal on the sub? I like the Neutrik Speakon connectors myself. You should get some stuffing, too (cheap polyfill pillows from Kmart/Walmart are often used), about 1 lb per cuft is the general guideline.

DSP can be added in the form of a miniDSP 2x4 (or think about the Behringer iNuke DSP series amp, albeit their fans are fairly noisy whereas the XLS amp fans a very quiet....depends where the amp is going to be located). Keep in mind that eq'g/boosting the low end response will use amp power.

 

[Pogre]

that woofer looks pretty solid, though out of stock for the moment. that's okay though I'm not in a huge hurry.

so, okay. this is what I have now.

2 of these, b stock is only 60 apiece.
http://www.diysoundgroup.com/sealed-subwoofer-flatpacks/2-sub-flat-pack.html

2 of these
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-um12-22-12-ultimax-dvc-subwoofer-2-ohms-per-coil--295-512

and I just found this at your suggestion
http://www.parts-express.com/behringer-nu3000dsp-inuke-3000-watt-power-amplifier-with-dsp--248-6706

that puts me at almost 800 for 2 subs, which really isn't bad at all, but I have a feeling you're gonna ask me what I plan to use for 7 more items I haven't even considered yet. like terminals...

seems like a pretty good start. I found the same size box on parts express, but it's actually more expensive.
http://www.parts-express.com/denovo-audio-knock-down-mdf-20-cu-ft-subwoofer-cabinet-for-dayton-audio-12-ultimax-subwoo--300-7081

a package deal would be nice, but I'm having trouble finding one on parts express for a 12" sub, let alone 2. I like the behringer with dsp already in there. that woofer is a 2 ohm dual voice coil woofer. would a single voice coil at 2 ohms be best for that amp? is that power rating accurate? 3000 watts seems like a lot for that little unit.

 

[Pogre]

also, you've brought up eq'ing a couple times now. I don't have Audyssey with my denon. just a basic setup program for xover levels, distances and speaker levels. nothing really in depth as far as accurate eq'ing. I was just planning to set the xover setting in my avr bass management to 80 hz. is here a lot more involved to eq'ing a sub than that?

I plan to stick with sealed boxes. no porting for now.

*edit:

found the bundle
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-12-ultimax-subwoofer-and-cabinet-bundle--300-7096

that's actually a little more than just getting the cabinets at diy, and the woofer from pe.

 

[lovinthehd]

When comparing the bundles to separate sourcing just be sure shipping is included in your totals (and that they're in stock too). If you get the Behringer 3000dsp amp you will have more eq/dsp options than you'd get with Audyssey (but with the XLS amp you'd need something external as it doesn't have but crossover dsp onboard). I'd never noticed b-stock at diysg before...

I use these for terminals on the subs http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4mpr-speakon-connector-4-pole-round-chassis-mount--092-054 and these for connecting amp to sub http://www.parts-express.com/neutrik-nl4fx-speakon-spx-series-4-pole-cable-connector--092-190. You can also get the simpler binding posts from diysoundgroup offered on the flatpack page.

The reason for dual voice coils (dvc) is different wiring options for different impedance loads, look again at that Crutchfield wiring link I linked for the different options between single voice coil (svc) and dvc drivers. The basic claim of 3000 watts bridged is more marketing, but can still put out plenty of power for your purposes, and can handle a 2ohm load if you go that way....http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/213071-behringer-inuke-nu3000-measurements.html

What, if any, finish are you planning to apply to the boxes?

Generally I'd still recommend you read several build threads to get an idea of what you'll encounter/need along the way. Do you have clamps for the glue-up process or what are you planning to do?

 

[Pogre]

I have clamps for the glue up process. Is using set screws a bad idea? as far as finish I wasn't thinking anything too fancy. prolly just some black satin stain. that would blend well with the rest of my gear. and I prolly won't go with b stock. it's only 12 dollars difference.

now that I'm getting a grip on what to put together I'm gaining a little more confidence. I'm not diving in tomorrow or anything yet. still gonna look around some more. I'm not married to anything I've linked so far either, but so far everything is looking pretty good. I could just start with 1 and take my time. it's not like I'm without anything right now. if I really like it I can sell my current subs and generate a little more cash for the 2nd one.

the behringer amp, if I wired the woofers in series for 4 ohms per channel, will it provide enough power for both? or would I want series them and bridge it into one channel for a 2 ohm load? I know there are a lot of options with dual voice coil woofers.

also, I'm assuming I would be using the sub out(s) from my avr to the amplifier for my signal?

 

[lovinthehd]

The flatpacks have rabbets/dado cuts and you have clamps, so doubt you'll gain anything with set screws; I remember one guy held it together with painter's tape while glue set. Screw holes are just more to cover up in finishing IMO.

Look at the power handling info to see what is spec'd but I believe in 4 ohm mode you'd be fine. How would you wire the 2ohm dvc drivers for 2 ohms, though? The 3000 amp was popular for 4ohm dvc drivers to operate in 2 ohm, but if you bridge the 3000amp you're limited to 4ohm use.

Yes, you feed the pre-out of your avr to the sub's amp; with the Behringer there is no rca input, you'll need an rca to XLR or 1/4" TS cable. The XLS can accept all three types (and the XLS gen 2 has an input sensitivity adjustment, which may be of use rather than the fixed sensitivity on the Behringer).

Yep, take your time and get it all lined up. I think you'll love the results, particularly with duals. You live in an apartment? That could be not so good