Schiit Yggdrasil DAC and Ragnarok Amplifier Review

[RichB]

Sounds like you had a lot of fun.

Did you level-match all three DAC's in your listening evaluation? Can you please walk me through the process as I would like to replicate the results in my own room.

Does it make a difference?
I have performed some SBT's when bi-amping, no level matching needed.

It is odd to demand that everything must DBT'ed, the folks doing so know damn well that it was not done. One must provide evidence and rigor, once provided it and the listening impressions are still crap.

A posters' "need" to hear differences may well exist as does a posters' "need" to hear no differences.

Honestly, I don't understand the demands for DBT in an Audioholics Review. That is not the standard here.

- Rich

 

[ski2xblack]

Rich, the standard being raised is simply this: back up claims of audible differences with something credible, not flim-flammery.

I see two competing ideas/goals in this thread:

1) one should seek the truth in audio and video using rational, empirical, demonstrable methods, and share that for the benefit of all. (Intelligent interactions result: those who make high quality, high value gear are rewarded; consumers get good value)
2) one has a moral obligation to separate gullible people from their money. (Bandits robbing the helpless/ignorant, where costs are very high and values are very low)

Seems to me that the Schitt guys started out as the former, with their affordable products and amusing snark towards audiophilia in general, but are now engaging in the second.

 

[Goliath]

It is odd to demand that everything must DBT'ed, the folks doing so know damn well that it was not done.

No one is demanding everything must be DBTéd. That is merely a contriviance of your imagination. : )

One must provide evidence and rigor, once provided it and the listening impressions are still crap.

What evidence was provided? What rigor? Did anyone claim the listening impressions were crap?

A posters' "need" to hear differences may well exist as does a posters' "need" to hear no differences.

Great. None of which tells us about the DAC or amplifier "sound", which is what we are interested in.

Honestly, I don't understand the demands for DBT in an Audioholics Review. That is not the standard here.

"Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment – not marketing slogans" - Audioholics.

What, pray tell, *is* the standard here?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Does it make a difference?
I have performed some SBT's when bi-amping, no level matching needed.

Wow. Rich you are so wrong here.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-8.html

 

[RichB]

Rich, the standard being raised is simply this: back up claims of audible differences with something credible, not flim-flammery.

I see two competing ideas/goals in this thread:

1) one should seek the truth in audio and video using rational, empirical, demonstrable methods, and share that for the benefit of all. (Intelligent interactions result: those who make high quality, high value gear are rewarded; consumers get good value)
2) one has a moral obligation to separate gullible people from their money. (Bandits robbing the helpless/ignorant, where costs are very high and values are very low)

Seems to me that the Schitt guys started out as the former, with their affordable products and amusing snark towards audiophilia in general, but are now engaging in the second.

1) True, but it all depends on where the truth lies. For example, two amps may not perform equally well with a given speaker. They are not often measured using real sources into real loads. Therefore, the "truth" is difficult to ascertain. My choice is to remain inquisitive.

2) I understand the obligation to assist those who do not want to fall victim for the high-end audio treachery. I suppose we all have a BS scale, just not the same scale.

I don't see Schitt guys as engaging in robbing the helpless/ignorant. The decrapifier is an example, they do not make exaggerated claims.

Concerning their YGGY, it seems to me that they truly believe that this is a superior approach. Hghly technical engineers love to over-engineer; building it the best that they know how. Product cost and limited market also affect the price and I suspect these guys are not getting rich doing so. If you want to get rich in audio, make cables.

A dealer told me that even the high-end manufactures make most of their money by integrating their design/brand into automobiles. This home audio thing is a loss-leader

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Does it make a difference?
I have performed some SBT's when bi-amping, no level matching needed.

Wow. Rich you are so wrong here.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/high-end-pc-audio,3733-8.html

I wrote no level matching needed when comparing bi-amping to single amping (with the same amp). Just to be safe, I measured the voltage at the speaker terminals at 50Hz, 1kHz, 10kHz.

- Rich

 

[Swerd]

I enjoyed reading all this stuff, yesterday. Today, not as much. We've made our point.

@gene – I do understand you have a business to run here. I hope kicking the hornets' nest over didn't hurt things too much for you.

to all the spokesmen for Schiit – Despite my aggressively worded questions, I do appreciate your efforts at producing new products, and your efforts to, at least, address our questions. I especially applaud your collaboration with Salk speakers. In my view, it speaks volumes about your interest in quality sound.

@RichB – You are correct about DBT vs. SBT. Double Blind Tests are not twice as good as Single Blind Tests. I wish people simply would say "blind listening tests" instead of "DBT". And yes, highly technical engineers love to over-engineer things. But that's when they need the guidance of a highly-experienced engineer who knows cost should overrule over-engineering things.

And finally, to all my fellow hornets. Thanks .

 

[RichB]

No one is demanding everything must be DBTéd. That is merely a contriviance of your imagination. : )

What evidence was provided? What rigor? Did anyone claim the listening impressions were crap?

Start reading at post #27.

"Let our rigorous testing and reviews be your guidelines to A/V equipment – not marketing slogans" - Audioholics.

What, pray tell, *is* the standard here?

It is a fair assumption that Gene does not post articles that do not conform to the mission.

Measurements are always preferred. Internal component images are recommended as a method to assess build quality. Measurements should be taken after listening tests to avoid biasing the evaluation. There is always an listening evaluation. Value and quality rating are always included. DBT's, not so much.

That's my view, what's yours?

- Rich

 

[RichB]

I enjoyed reading all this stuff, yesterday. Today, not as much. We've made our point.

@gene – I do understand you have a business to run here. I hope kicking the hornets' nest over didn't hurt things too much for you.

to all the spokesmen for Schiit – Despite my aggressively worded questions, I do appreciate your efforts at producing new products, and your efforts to, at least, address our questions. I especially applaud your choice of collaborating with Salk speakers. In my view, it speaks volumes about your interest in quality sound.

@RichB – You are correct about DBT vs. SBT. Double Blind Tests are not twice as good as Single Blind Tests. I wish people simply would say "blind listening tests" instead of "DBT". And yes, highly technical engineers love to over-engineer things. But that's when they need the guidance of a highly-experienced engineer who knows cost should overrule over-engineering things.

And finally, to all my fellow hornets. Thanks .

Thanks for this. Music is an emotional experience that directly carries forward into the equipment used to reproduce it. We are all passionate here.

- Rich

 

[ski2xblack]

2) I understand the obligation to assist those who do not want to fall victim for the high-end audio treachery. I suppose we all have a BS scale, just not the same scale.

I'll admit to being on the more cynical end of that BS scale. I love music, and the most pragmatic ways to get to listening to it. This thread seems more concerned with commercial promotion, complete with explicit claims of audible superiority with only the flimsiest of justification.

Music is an emotional experience that directly carries forward into the equipment used to reproduce it.

Um, no. The equipment used to reproduce music are just tools. Gear fetishes I understand, but that has little to do with a love of music, and more to do with a love of material goods.

 

[Josuah]

I feel this thread is going off the rails. In a weak attempt to contribute to a discussion of the actual review, I'll provide my two cents on the Yggdrasil. For people who want measurements, SBAF has the Yggdrasil, and Stereophile has the Ragnarok.

I directly compared the Yggdrasil against the Neko Audio D100 Mk2, Bryston BDA-3, Auralic Vega, and OPPO HA-1. I have heard a long list of DACs over the years. The Yggdrasil has a very unique and obviously different sound character from pretty much every DAC I have heard except perhaps a Rega CD player. Honestly I do not think anyone who has even modest critical listening skills would not hear the difference immediately.

The Yggdrasil does not sound like an analog vinyl setup. I have the following setups here to compare the Yggdrasil against, in decreasing order of sound quality. The SME and Xtension 10 have been calibrated using Adjust+ and test records. The RPM 1 and Debut Carbon are stock.

• SME 20/3, SME Series V, Ortofon Cadenza Black, Simaudio 310LP+320S
• Pro-Ject Xtension 10, Blackbird Lo, Pro-Ject Phono Box RS
• Pro-Ject RPM 1 Carbon, Sumiko Pearl, Pro-Ject Phono Box
• Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC, Ortofon 2M Red, Pro-Ject Phono Box

The Yggdrasil does not sound anything like those. Among the DACs, I still believe the D100 Mk2 is the most analog-sounding, and the Yggdrasil is still very different in sound from that DAC.

The Yggdrasil does have extremely good detail retrieval and a very clean sound. I think width of soundstage can certainly be praised. I would debate the degree to depth of soundstage Smit Patel's review suggests, and agree with his comparison in this regard to the Vega. It would have been worth it compare with the Vega across its different filter modes and sample rates. I also agree there are slight changes to the sound after it gets up to temperature (not burn-in, but optimum thermal operating point), but you will get most of the sound character right away without waiting.

The USB input was a little picky, in ways no other DAC USB input has been for me. I had to use a powered USB connection for the Yggdrasil to work properly. Using other USB ports that worked with other DACs did not work with the Yggdrasil. I would have thought the USB input would be internally powered for optimum behavior and sound quality.

One final note regarding the review: I think it would have presented better if it didn't read so much like a marketing article. For example, mentioning the Ragnarok's unique microprocessor approach without going into the details or the impact. Stereophile looks at that with a much more critical eye. There is also quite a debate over whether or not multibit is audibly different than Delta-Sigma. And I think a whole research paper worth of discussion is possible around their closed-form filter.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Of course, bias and auditory memory make differentiating components difficult.
That means difficult to discern, even when preset.

Everyone has bias, objectivists and subjectivists alike.

- Rich

Of course we all have biases, conscious and subconscious ones.
We can certainly ask for a DBT from everyone but if one cannot hear differences, what is the use?

 

[mtrycrafts]

...
2) one has a moral obligation to separate gullible people from their money. (Bandits robbing the helpless/ignorant, where costs are very high and values are very low)
...

Well, even if money is not involved or isn't much, facts and truths need to be strived for especially when stuff is broadcast for many to see.
Thanks for your great post.

 

[mtrycrafts]

...

And finally, to all my fellow hornets. Thanks .

Bzzzzzzzz

 

[RichB]

Um, no. The equipment used to reproduce music are just tools. Gear fetishes I understand, but that has little to do with a love of music, and more to do with a love of material goods.

Bzzzzzzzz

The busy-bee

- Rich

 

[Paul Lane]

No Remote is a deal breaker for me.. How about a switchable Tube section also.. I won't wear a "Hair Shirt" for audio especially at the price point..

 

[Alexandre]

No Remote is a deal breaker for me.. How about a switchable Tube section also..

Not 100% sure what you mean by "switchable tube section" but for half the price you can get a tube headphone amp from them and they sell "tubes that aren't tubes":

MJOLNIR 2: TUBE OR SOLID STATE BALANCED HEADPHONE AMPLIFIER

Choose Tube Hybrid, Solid-State, or Both
Yes, that’s right. You can get Mjolnir 2 as a tube hybrid, or as a pure solid-state amp—or get both, and swap out as you’d like. You can also swap the standard 6BZ7 tubes for anything in the 6DJ8, 6922, ECC88, and 2492 families, to “roll” the sound to your specific preference. Or just opt for the Schiit LISST (Linear, Integral Solid-State Tube) for a 100% solid state amp.​

 

[Chu Gai]

I believe Stereophile ran a review of the amp which included measurements. Nice to see its made in the USA. Also somewhat novel to see a DAC that bears the FCC logo. DAC comparisons are a bit tricky considering that one needs to find a way to normalize the output voltage. Probably would sound good with my Bukkake cables like the Splooge.

 

[jinjuku]

I think you should research more rather than plucking random numbers from the air. The military-grade AD5791 DAC in the Yggdrasil is alone worth more than you're suggesting as part of the inside components.

It may cost more. Doesn't make it worth more.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... Doesn't make it worth more.

Certainly not in a home audio system.