Yamaha 1050 with a power amp

[Sahil]

Hi Everyone,

I am bit confused on some points for my HT set up.
I have a yamaha 1050 with B&W 683 s2 5.1 HT. been thinking to upgrade and add a power amp with the current AVR. I did some research and shortlisted Emotiva XPA 5 gen 3 or Marantz 5 channel amp. However on the specs Emotiva does look much more powerful and cheaper.
- Will my AVR be able to drive an external power amp- since the output volts of Yammy preouts seems to be rated at 1v. Not sure how much difference would that make?
- or I take a pick up the top model of Yamaha- 3050, not sure how much difference would that make.

Request your advise and suggestions.

Cheers!

 

[ski2xblack]

I have a yamaha 1050 with B&W 683 s2 5.1 HT. been thinking to upgrade and add a power amp with the current AVR.

I'm assuming that you're working with a fixed budget for this, so I tend to look at specific upgrades as necessarily excluding others, and that any upgrades should be prioritized in order of their actual impact on your listening enjoyment. And you don't mention subs. I would personally put subs (plural) ahead of external amplification in my own priority list. Adding power will allow you to play slightly louder, but adding a pair of subs would extend response, increase dynamics of the system, and, assuming you use more than one sub, provide smoother bass response throughout the room.

- Will my AVR be able to drive an external power amp- since the output volts of Yammy preouts seems to be rated at 1v. Not sure how much difference would that make?

I see the new XPA series requires 1.5v for full output. I suspect that your Yamaha can deliver that, but I don't know for sure. You could always look for one of the older gen 2 models, which sported input sensitivity of 0.7v.

- or I take a pick up the top model of Yamaha- 3050, not sure how much difference would that make.

Only if the 3050 has specific features that your current AVR lacks. The power difference is not terribly significant.

 

[WaynePflughaupt]

You can likely take Yamaha’s pre-amp output voltage specs with a grain of salt. When I checked mine some years back (admittedly an older model), the voltage was double the spec’d figure.

Check my gain structure article for info on how you can determine for yourself what your receiver’s pre-amp output voltage is.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Sahil]

I'm assuming that you're working with a fixed budget for this, so I tend to look at specific upgrades as necessarily excluding others, and that any upgrades should be prioritized in order of their actual impact on your listening enjoyment. And you don't mention subs. I would personally put subs (plural) ahead of external amplification in my own priority list. Adding power will allow you to play slightly louder, but adding a pair of subs would extend response, increase dynamics of the system, and, assuming you use more than one sub, provide smoother bass response throughout the room.

I agree with you totally...thats what I plan along with extra amplifier.

I see the new XPA series requires 1.5v for full output. I suspect that your Yamaha can deliver that, but I don't know for sure. You could always look for one of the older gen 2 models, which sported input sensitivity of 0.7v.

I am bit confused here. I did write to Gene, he is confident that yamaha 1050 will drive emotiva at its fullest. probably he can explain it in bit more detail..


Only if the 3050 has specific features that your current AVR lacks. The power difference is not terribly significant.

nothing much...features are the same. only it has 9.2 channels and can be expanded to 11.2 with an extra amp.

 

[Sahil]

You can likely take Yamaha’s pre-amp output voltage specs with a grain of salt. When I checked mine some years back (admittedly an older model), the voltage was double the spec’d figure.

Check my gain structure article for info on how you can determine for yourself what your receiver’s pre-amp output voltage is.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Thanks Wayne. that's what it seems like.
I can't find any bench test of latest yamaha aventage series or even last year 40 series.
I am sorry, I am quite new here. where can I find your article. possible to share a link.

 

[lovinthehd]

Might have this guy's experience https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/installed-emotiva-xpa-5-and-no-difference-in-output.104041/

Wayne's very helpful article

 

[Sahil]

Another confusion after reading the other post. His experience isn't been great with an external amp.

Wayne's article is an interesting read...he seems to have done a lot of research but frankly I am quite impatient do it. : (

I have 2 options I can upgrade to 3050 by just paying the difference. or buy emotiva xpa 5.

also I have only one sub for now which svs pb 1000....shud I upgrade to pb 2000?

sorry guys...asking a lot of questions.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Might have this guy's experience https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/installed-emotiva-xpa-5-and-no-difference-in-output.104041/

That guy had very efficient speakers, unlike OP's which have Sens at 87.7dB(B)/2.83V/m and I'm no expert, but I find it hard to believe then B&W claims 8ohm nominal impedance judging from this graph:

Bottom line 683's are (relatively) power hungry speakers, but depending on listening volume external amp may not provide significant improvements.

PB1000 is nice sub, but it's limited capabilities, especially in larger rooms.

If you have about $1k budget for upgrades, I'd recommend trying new LCR. Ascend CMT340SE's with stands and center including shipping would be a bit under $1k. If you don't like the improvements - send them back for full refund within 30 days. http://www.ascendacoustics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=GRNTE

 

[j_garcia]

If you aren't hearing the limits of the AVR then an amp won't add anything really.

 

[Sahil]

Hi...I agree with you. that's what raises questions klipch are with very high sensitivity.
B&W sensitivity and impedence isn't great....they rate it at 8 ohms but it goes down to 3 ohms. which clearly are more power hungry.
I did read this article on sterophile.
my usage is mainly for movies and I love them loud for that 2 hours.

I just upgraded to these speakers...and they ain't cheap in india. won't be able to afford another upgrade..

looking at all of this made me think of an external amp...since they ask for more power.

 

[Sahil]

sorry for the double post...sometimes I have to take the volume up to 0 db or a little more to have right loudness for certain movies.

for television i use around -10.

not sure it's the movie or my system..

 

[lovinthehd]

Another confusion after reading the other post. His experience isn't been great with an external amp.

Wayne's article is an interesting read...he seems to have done a lot of research but frankly I am quite impatient do it. : (

I have 2 options I can upgrade to 3050 by just paying the difference. or buy emotiva xpa 5.

also I have only one sub for now which svs pb 1000....shud I upgrade to pb 2000?

sorry guys...asking a lot of questions.

Why would you upgrade to the 3050, what would that accomplish? Now knowing what volume you use your system at that helps somewhat....some people never listen above -20dB. Don't know what your power amp options are like in India, personally last ones I've used are Crown Drivecore XLS amps and they are more cost effective than Emotiva.

 

[tyhjaarpa]

sorry for the double post...sometimes I have to take the volume up to 0 db or a little more to have right loudness for certain movies.

for television i use around -10.

not sure it's the movie or my system..

If you can reach your desired listening level without your avr having problems / without going to max volume then you are fine imo.

 

[Sahil]

Why would you upgrade to the 3050, what would that accomplish? Now knowing what volume you use your system at that helps somewhat....some people never listen above -20dB. Don't know what your power amp options are like in India, personally last ones I've used are Crown Drivecore XLS amps and they are more cost effective than Emotiva.

Crown is available here, however it will cost more or less the same. Since they also get imported.... Emotiva is far more reasonable if i look at cost per channel.

3050 supposedly has bit more power (ON spl it wont make much of difference) and a better DAC. And more channels which might make it bit more future proof. (in case I decide to add more channels or go atmos)
Not sure if that will make a lot of difference.... I was thinking probably I am only missing only that much of power.

So it boils down to emotiva vs 3050 or none.

 

[lovinthehd]

Crown is available here, however it will cost more or less the same. Since they also get imported.... Emotiva is far more reasonable if i look at cost per channel.

3050 supposedly has bit more power (ON spl it wont make much of difference) and a better DAC. And more channels which might make it bit more future proof. (in case I decide to add more channels or go atmos)
Not sure if that will make a lot of difference.... I was thinking probably I am only missing only that much of power.

So it boils down to emotiva vs 3050 or none.

Are you getting distortion/clipping now with your preferred listening levels? If not, why add an amp?

It would take significantly more power to make much difference, even a doubling of power only gains you 3dB. Doubt the DAC in the 3050 will be significantly different, although the DAC chip alone isn't the whole story.

Why do you need so much power for surrounds? You listen to multi-ch music a lot? Why not just an XPA-3 and use the receiver for surrounds?

 

[PENG]

- Will my AVR be able to drive an external power amp- since the output volts of Yammy preouts seems to be rated at 1v. Not sure how much difference would that make?

We do not know exactly what that 1V rating means as there do not seem to be standards that AVR manufacturers follow. D&M typically rate them 1.2V. All we know for sure is that based on multiple bench tests including those done by Audioholics, the models tested were able to produce over 2V unclipped.

 

[Sahil]

We do not know exactly what that 1V rating means as there do not seem to be standards that AVR manufacturers follow. D&M typically rate them 1.2V. All we know for sure is that based on multiple bench tests including those done by Audioholics, the models tested were able to produce over 2V unclipped.

Yeah that's it look like. Gene also mailed the same...in their bench tests the ratings are totally different for Yamaha too! I am sure it drive any amp comfortably.

 

[Sahil]

Are you getting distortion/clipping now with your preferred listening levels? If not, why add an amp?

It would take significantly more power to make much difference, even a doubling of power only gains you 3dB. Doubt the DAC in the 3050 will be significantly different, although the DAC chip alone isn't the whole story.

Why do you need so much power for surrounds? You listen to multi-ch music a lot? Why not just an XPA-3 and use the receiver for surrounds?

No distortion but I have to really push the volume high to have the desired loudness. in one of the posts in this thread someone mentioned and in various other forums I have read that people usually don't go beyond-20 db. I am sure it's not my ears and I have a medium size room...which also can't be the factor.
another reason could calibration...which I did a lot of times to understand if I am going wrong there.

I was leaning towards 3050 for even number of channels it supports...which makes it little future proof. or this just my greed

XPA 3 seems like a good option. my dealer told me that if u power 3 channels for an external and surrounds from your AVR then u might feel some audio delay. I believe this can't be possible however anybody can explain that technically?

 

[lovinthehd]

No distortion but I have to really push the volume high to have the desired loudness. in one of the posts in this thread someone mentioned and in various other forums I have read that people usually don't go beyond-20 db. I am sure it's not my ears and I have a medium size room...which also can't be the factor.
another reason could calibration...which I did a lot of times to understand if I am going wrong there.

I was leaning towards 3050 for even number of channels it supports...which makes it little future proof. or this just my greed

XPA 3 seems like a good option. my dealer told me that if u power 3 channels for an external and surrounds from your AVR then u might feel some audio delay. I believe this can't be possible however anybody can explain that technically?

Yes, I was the one who mentioned some people don't listen to stuff much above -20dB which is if anything about my usual movie listening level but for some soundtracks I'll go to -10dB sometimes, and maybe to -5 to 0 for a demo. While there might be something said for not turning your avr volume knob past 0, if it still sounds good at that point and your avr doesn't start glowing or heating the room or worse, shutting down, I think you're okay without an external amp but maybe you'd like to let the amp take the load, that's okay too....it's your money.

That way of referring to level is only somewhat meaningful for movies using the standards it's calibrated to and your avr's calibration to match up....and that isn't adhered to uniformly by any means with movies IME let alone the various ways movies can be delivered (disc, streaming, OTA, sat), music doesn't have a standard as such and is all over the place.

Delay can be handled by your avr....in the settings it's usually called "distance".

 

[PENG]

No distortion but I have to really push the volume high to have the desired loudness. in one of the posts in this thread someone mentioned and in various other forums I have read that people usually don't go beyond-20 db. I am sure it's not my ears and I have a medium size room...which also can't be the factor.
another reason could calibration...which I did a lot of times to understand if I am going wrong there.

I was leaning towards 3050 for even number of channels it supports...which makes it little future proof. or this just my greed

XPA 3 seems like a good option. my dealer told me that if u power 3 channels for an external and surrounds from your AVR then u might feel some audio delay. I believe this can't be possible however anybody can explain that technically?

According to THX room size categories (copied/pasted from their website):

■ Compact Systems – small rooms, up to 1,000 cu/ft and a viewing distance of 8-10 feet
■ THX Select2 – medium home theater, up to 2,000 cu/ft and a viewing distance of 10-12 feet
■ THX Ultra2 – larger home theaters of 3,000 cu/ft in size and a viewing distance of 12 feet or greater

and

THX Reference Level: Designed to recreate the movie industry SPL setting, 85dB with 20dB of headroom. By turning the volume dial to “0” on a THX Certified receiver, users experience the exact volume level used by the sound designer – with the same level of sound fidelity.

So if you room is in fact medium size by THX classification, and your hearing is normal, at volume 0 you should be getting SPL similar to what you would experience in a THX certified cinema.

If you add an external amp such as the XPA-3, after proper "calibration", you will likely still have to set your volume to 0, hardly comforting visually speaking.

One last point, looking at the specs of your speakers, I don't think they are designed to play loud. The 1050's or 1050+ a 200WPC amp is actually a decent match for them, just don't expect by adding a 200W amp your will suddenly see the volume display lower.