Bi-wiring loudspeakers is there really a difference?

[StarEye]

The problem is that the manufacturers themselves keep alive these myths (to prove my point here is a page taken from Monitor audio bronze 2 manual).

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just noticed BMX's post#16. Had I noticed his post earlier, I wouldn't have posted on this perennial topic at all.

Yes, lots of posts to remember who said what when.
and the fact is that it is not doing the exact same thing because when you bi-wire, you do end up with different signal contents in each pair of wires due to the different impedance characteristics of the crossovers that are separated into two halves because the jumper that tied them together as one circuit has been removed and each pair of wires can now carry different signals as enforced by their own filter/crossover.
Yes indeed, and depending on the crossover slope order, may contain some signals of both sides in both, some highs in the low side and some lows in the high side, I think.

 

[BlwnAway]

Yes, lots of posts to remember who said what when.
and the fact is that it is not doing the exact same thing because when you bi-wire, you do end up with different signal contents in each pair of wires due to the different impedance characteristics of the crossovers that are separated into two halves because the jumper that tied them together as one circuit has been removed and each pair of wires can now carry different signals as enforced by their own filter/crossover.
Yes indeed, and depending on the crossover slope order, may contain some signals of both sides in both, some highs in the low side and some lows in the high side, I think.

So what you're saying is that by removing the jumper to a speaker with internal crossovers and simply running two pairs of wires to those posts from the "same exact" post on an AVR or amp, it's going to change the impedance, and more importantly, the audible characteristics of that speaker.

 

[Swerd]

So what you're saying is that by removing the jumper to a speaker with internal crossovers and simply running two pairs of wires to those posts from the "same exact" post on an AVR or amp, it's going to change the impedance, and more importantly, the audible characteristics of that speaker.

Don't put words into his mouth that he didn't say. Mtry only said the 2 wires would carry different signals if the jumper link was removed. He could have said it better, but he didn't say any of that would be audible.

Why am I trying to explain this? I think you get it .

 

[Swerd]

The problem is that the manufacturers themselves keep alive these myths (to prove my point here is a page taken from Monitor audio bronze 2 manual).

While you are probably right to criticize them, the page you attached never claimed that any of those wiring methods would sound better, or even sound different.

 

[BlwnAway]

That's fine, I guess since I'm not an electrical engineer I can't understand how 2 of the "appropriately sized" wires is going to change anything over using the supplied jumper and a single "appropriately sized" wire when coming from the "exact same post" off of an amp or AVR.

 

[mtrycrafts]

So what you're saying is that by removing the jumper to a speaker with internal crossovers and simply running two pairs of wires to those posts from the "same exact" post on an AVR or amp, it's going to change the impedance, and more importantly, the audible characteristics of that speaker.

Firstly, the bolded writing is from another post by Peng, not properly identified as I don't see a multi post option anymore.
Second as stated by swerd, I didn't imply change in impedance or audibility, right?
As to your last post I am just seeing, some aspects are different with two wires. Don't worry about it, a technical issue only.

 

[PENG]

So what you're saying is that by removing the jumper to a speaker with internal crossovers and simply running two pairs of wires to those posts from the "same exact" post on an AVR or amp, it's going to change the impedance, and more importantly, the audible characteristics of that speaker.

No I don't believe any such electrical difference would be audible to most people, except for those equipped with golden ears.

I am saying that there is a difference between putting a jumper across the speaker terminals and removing that jumper but still connecting two pairs of feed wires at the same set of amp terminals. The amp will still see almost the same overall impedance, but since the LP and HP filters at the speaker ends are no longer tied together by the jumper, the signal contents in the two pairs of feed wires will be different because of the difference load impedance of the separated crossover (into LP and HP). Again, that should not result in audible difference, so we are in agreement on that.

Lastly you don't have to be an electrical engineer to understand why the LP and HP filters offer different impedance to the amp. You just have to do some reading on your own.

https://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_pa/Scots_Guide/audio/biwire/Page1.html
http://sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm
http://www.empiricalaudio.com/computer-audio/audio-faqs/bi-wiring-speaker-cables

The math involved are more complicated than people who choose to simply things think, but it should be easy to understand the basic concept. Also note that none of the above links touch on the also claimed effects of bi-wire on the electromagnetic field theory side. It is mush easier to deal with the electrical circuit theory side of things but much more complicated to consider the electromagnetic side. I don't believe the lower magnetic field influence of the high magnitude low band frequency current on the high band frequency signal will result in audible difference either.

 

[sr2002]

I always thought Bi-wiring was to improve the transport of current over the distance of wire. Since diameter of the conductor dictates the resistance it will have and considering the I2R loses in heat, I assumed it would be better to have thicker conductor (or more conductors in case of biwiring) to minimize resistance and therefore the loses. I'm applying the transmission line theory here since we are indeed dealing with AC signal. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

I too got a biwire to banana plug arrangement for my recently acquired speakers (Its an audioquest copper conductor cable)

 

[markw]

I always thought Bi-wiring was to improve the transport of current over the distance of wire. Since diameter of the conductor dictates the resistance it will have and considering the I2R loses in heat, I assumed it would be better to have thicker conductor (or more conductors in case of biwiring) to minimize resistance and therefore the loses. I'm applying the transmission line theory here since we are indeed dealing with AC signal. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

I too got a biwire to banana plug arrangement for my recently acquired speakers (Its an audioquest copper conductor cable)

Are you familiar with transmission line theory? I dealt with this in the air force, waveguide in particular. Here's the cliff notes version.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_line

Did you note the word "radio"?

Be careful of the technical mumbo jumbo that's thrown around this hobby. Some terms sound impressive and do have a basis in reality but, upon further investigation, it turns out that it has absolutely no affect in audio. If one doesn't have a firm grasp on the subject matter it's easy to be baffled by the bulls*it they throw in to impress the unknowing.

 

[PENG]

I always thought Bi-wiring was to improve the transport of current over the distance of wire. Since diameter of the conductor dictates the resistance it will have and considering the I2R loses in heat, I assumed it would be better to have thicker conductor (or more conductors in case of biwiring) to minimize resistance and therefore the loses. I'm applying the transmission line theory here since we are indeed dealing with AC signal. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

I too got a biwire to banana plug arrangement for my recently acquired speakers (Its an audioquest copper conductor cable)

Transmission line theory need not apply to the distance found in between the power amps and speakers, unless you are talking about something else and not transmission line theory that does apply to electrical power lines and telecommunication.

 

[sr2002]

@markw
I'm not trying to argue here or make false claims. Transmission line theory is not exclusive to the RF spectrum. HVAC lines also use transmission line theory @60/50hz. I2R loses don't disappear in the 20hz-20khz band. Although losses might be small and may not be too noticiable to the ear.

And I don't know if just because I have less posts on this forum, you are automatically assuming I dont know what I'm talking about, I have taken coursework in power transmission lines and HVAC transformer design, I have worked on projects with HVAC as well as designed and built wifi grade LNA amplifiers (2.4Ghz) from scratch on home made PCBs. So I know what waveguides are and how waveguides relate to a conductor cable.

I appreciate your input though.

 

[sr2002]

@PENG

What I'm trying say is that a longer conductor with a smaller diameter wil have more resistance than a conductor of the same length but with a larger diameter right?
So if we consider I2R, reduction in the resistance will result in reduction in total loses. Although these losses will vary. I don't clearly remember this right now but .. that is the reason I was trying see if that might be one of the reasons people use bi-wire

 

[markw]

@markw
I'm not trying to argue here or make false claims. Transmission line theory is not exclusive to the RF spectrum. HVAC lines also use transmission line theory @60/50hz. I2R loses don't disappear in the 20hz-20khz band. Although losses might be small and may not be too noticiable to the ear.

And I don't know if just because I have less posts on this forum, you are automatically assuming I dont know what I'm talking about, I have taken coursework in power transmission lines and HVAC transformer design, I have worked on projects with HVAC as well as designed and built wifi grade LNA amplifiers (2.4Ghz) from scratch on home made PCBs. So I know what waveguides are and how waveguides relate to a conductor cable.

I appreciate your input though.

Well, I guess you know more than the rest of us. Your post count has nothing to do with my answer. I always try to explain to the deluded, in as nice a way as possible, to steer them away from the quagmire of adspeak that exists in this hobby.

Enjoy your delusion.

So, tell me how 2.4 gigahertz is relevant to 20 kilohertz. Audio is practically DC in comparison.

 

[sr2002]

@markw
I'm absolutely not claiming to know more than anyone. And it seems you edited your post a little. Cause the way it was written before made it sound kind of rude from where I'm sitting. I understand you probably didn't mean to be rude. So please pardon me if I came out strongly.
Constructive criticism is always welcomed ...

I'm not relating 2.4Ghz to 20khz, I was simply talking about my background since you mentioned waveguides.

And just to add please don't take anything personally. We all are in this hobby together

 

[markw]

Here's a bit more on this subject that might clarify my point a bit better than I could.

http://www.opusklassiek.nl/audiotechniek/cables.htm

And I've been audio for about 50+ years, not counting my time in the air force working with microwave radio relay installations.

and, I'm sorry if you felt insulted. I was merely trying to disabuse you of your incorrect thinking. Separating the wheat from the chaff in this hobby is a good part of the learning process.

 

[sr2002]

No worries at all.
I think the keywords "Transmission line theory" made quite a bit of a stir.
But yea I'll read those articles you posted.

I have had experiences in other forums in the past of senior members just talking to newbie members in a "you don't know what your talking about" kind of a tone. So I have to keep my guard up

 

[lovinthehd]

I always thought Bi-wiring was to improve the transport of current over the distance of wire. Since diameter of the conductor dictates the resistance it will have and considering the I2R loses in heat, I assumed it would be better to have thicker conductor (or more conductors in case of biwiring) to minimize resistance and therefore the loses. I'm applying the transmission line theory here since we are indeed dealing with AC signal. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

I too got a biwire to banana plug arrangement for my recently acquired speakers (Its an audioquest copper conductor cable)

Bi-wiring is mostly about selling more wire. Overall diameter isn't as important as the actual wire gauge involved. Audioquest is particularly known for fleecing the flock.

 

[PENG]

@PENG

What I'm trying say is that a longer conductor with a smaller diameter wil have more resistance than a conductor of the same length but with a larger diameter right?
So if we consider I2R, reduction in the resistance will result in reduction in total loses. Although these losses will vary. I don't clearly remember this right now but .. that is the reason I was trying see if that might be one of the reasons people use bi-wire

Of course you are right about longer conductor with smaller diameter will have more resistance but that's not the reason to bi-wire. You mentioned transmission line theory, that implies the electrical theory and math that take into account the distributed inductance and capacitance of mainly long power line or communication line conductors. Speaker wires are too short to worry about the distributed inductance and capacitance.

 

[PENG]

No worries at all.
I think the keywords "Transmission line theory" made quite a bit of a stir.
But yea I'll read those articles you posted.

Sure, that term happens to be a very common term used in the electrical power and telecommunication world.