Speaker setup (7.2.2, 7.2.4, 5.1?) for family room HT

[Jimmy Bond]

Seeking info on whether this 7.2.4/7.2.4 is overkill for family room system.

Per other recent thread, I WAS looking at implementing 7.1 system in main family room. Now due to looking at amps that can handle multi zones etc (or that have 9.2 connections), I am switching to new thread specifically to address TV setup rather than whole-house audio.

See attached diagrams for 7.2.4 and 7.2.2 (the ‘restrained’ version!) - is this overkill for a family room setup? Spouse is seriously concerned that I am going overboard and there are way too many speakers involved. We are coming from using two tower speakers bi-amped and that’s it, and most of our watching is on Netflix/HuluPlus. But my take is that if I’m buying an amp that can handle this, then why not - I already have torn down drywall ceiling this weekend to accommodate new pot lighting, ahead of our reno company starting other work tomorrow on project, so wiring is a (relative) breeze compared to previous fishing concept.

Room as you can see is ~16 ft wide by 21 ft long (and open to kitchen behind though only family room speaker setup shown here), total ~317 square feet. I had planned on using my existing towers as fronts, possibly bi-amped, and a new external centre channel speaker, and then all the rest of the setup would be in-ceilings. I know many on the ‘net feel in-ceilings are not ideal for surround, but for where we want seating etc. and given the existing stairs from kitchen to (slightly sunken) family room, I can’t put a stand in back right corner, and there is a hallway off the family room that will be just behind the couch.

Worth noting too: ceilings in this room are 8 feet high (older home)

I welcome thoughts on this. Was looking at a new Yamaha RXA-3050/2050 to power this, possibly supported with my RXA-1000 as external power amp to handle bi-amped towers FL/FR and/or the presence speakers, depending on what I need for power and zones etc.

Am I out of my mind? Should I just be looking at a 5.1 here and save the dough for a better TV (since my 50” is going to be woefully dwarfed by that wall?)

My potential speaker placements follow, with dimensions marked by contractor. Placements were based on the guide from Yamaha 3050 install manual off the internet.

 

[mtrycrafts]

No, you are not out of your mind if you can do all this.
However, you would need a receiver that has Dolby Atmos capability. That will properly power each channel. Not sure a multi zone amp will do and without Atmos capability, you will accomplish nothing.

Your left/right surrounds are too far back from the pictured listening place. They should be at 90 degrees of the listening seat to about 110 degrees back.

 

[Jimmy Bond]

Thx for feedback. On receiver - rxa2050/3050 being contemplated are atmos enabled.

On placement - I was trying to mimic what was in the Yamaha manual which suggested this layout (pic to follow), though I am still confused at why for a 2 presence setup they are above listener rather than in front of them. I can likely move my surrounds a bit closer to couch (1 or two ceiling joists worth), should I move the surround backs closer as well or leave them where they are?

 

[shadyJ]

Follow Dolby's guide as close as possible. Atmos depends on correct speaker placement for best results. Here is a quick guide, but you really should go through the Dolby Atmos Installation Guide before you do any planning or construction.

 

[Jimmy Bond]

thanks for link. that installation guide is good, though it still doesn't exactly address what I am trying to determine, namely what should my placement be if using overhead/in-ceiling for all except the FL/FR/C channels. OF course Dolby would prefer that you use ear-level for the rears etc, and save the overhead for the presence, but I am trying to figure out how to use overhead for the presence AND use overhead for the surround(s)

 

[shadyJ]

I don't think Atmos will sound right in that case. I am not sure if it is worth doing if you don't have the right placement available. Something like Trinnov might be able to handle that, but Trinnov is very expensive.

 

[Jimmy Bond]

Ok thanks. More research needed on atmos and ceilings etc. Is a 7 channel setup okay with the inceilings covering all but the fronts?

On receivers, now I'm looking at the RXV-1079 since the local AV shop has on sale for a few hundred less than an RXA-1050. Effectively the same model except without the fifth 'foot', but still has the Sabre DAC of the RXA models. On channels, though, would only be 7.2 which would limit some of the setup options here (to either 7.2 or 5.2.2). Much as I love the specs of the 3050 I would have to shell out a thousand+ which I can instead maybe put towards a TV. The RXV1079/RXA1050 still has the same network MusicCast etc.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... though it still doesn't exactly address what I am trying to determine, namely what should my placement be if using overhead/in-ceiling for all except the FL/FR/C channels. ...

I doubt any here or any other place have listened to an Atmos setup with all but the fronts in the ceiling.
I seriously doubt you would like the outcome.
Not sure where you will get the answer. Call Dolby?

 

[Latent]

page 13 of that atmos installation guide has some useful info but it may not tell you everything you need.

Use of Existing Overhead Speakers In some existing home theater systems, overhead speakers are employed to generate audio that would otherwise be created by listener-level speakers (for example, left/right surround speakers). When transitioning to Dolby Atmos, you should repurpose existing overhead speakers as overhead outputs only if you can add a corresponding listener-level speaker to assume the previous overhead speaker feed. For example, if two overhead speakers located toward the rear of the room are currently used to reproduce left/right surround outputs, they should be used as overhead speakers only if replacement left/right surrounds can be added at the listener level. If this is not possible, the overhead speakers should continue to be used for left/right surround outputs. In this case, overhead sound can be achieved by installing additional overhead speakers, Dolby Atmos enabled speakers, or modules in the front speaker locations.

Also with regard to placement You may try something like this below. The Left side surround speaker is just above ear level but longer away but it is for diffuse surround sound and speaker calibration will equal out the delay added by it's extra distance and adjust the volume up a bit so it sounds right in the primary listening position. Also may be easier to just have the 2 in ceiling Atmos speakers and for the Surround back channels you can use either 2 in ceiling or mount them on the walls at the back of the room.

You could also wait until DTS-X firmware is released in a month or so so reviewers can sink their teeth into it and find out if it actually does what they say it can as it can 'in theory' make the sound scale to the odd speaker locations you might have. But who knows. Edit: Also note that the RX-A3050/V3079 has one other advantage here in that it measures the 3D angle/height of each speaker so it knows how to adjust for funny speaker placement with DTS:X. Don't know if it makes a difference in practice though. Also be aware that using all the 11.1 speaker modes in the 3050 can reduce the number of audio zones it can output as zone 3 no longer works and you need a stereo power amp for the front speakers.

 

[Latent]

And for 5.2.2 if you don't want to risk any ceiling speakers for rear channels

 

[Latent]

You could also think about playing with couch position as moving slightly closer to your TV turns a 60" into what looks like a 75". By moving like this you may get better speaker placement options. You also now have room for a pool table

Another trick i've used on my 55" TV is mine is mounted on a movable wall mount. I use it tilt the TV to the side so we can view it from the dinning room when needed but it also can bring the TV forward by nearly 2 feet. This means tv is hanging out into the room over top and lined up with the center speaker. This brings you closer to the screen and increases it's effective screen size. When not needed it can be pushed back against the wall though.

http://www.aavara.com/en/products/product.php?id=70

 

[Jimmy Bond]

Latent - I appreciate the dedication, here and on the other thread. Pool table already in basement, it came with the house! (they didn't want to move it up stairs) It'll have to move someday when I install a true home theatre down there.

For now I need to do more research on in-ceilings. It is really tough to have stand speakers or wall ones where they probably need to be, either they block passageways or else they can't be mounted due to studs etc (that spot between window and patio door I think can't have wiring due to the window/door jams)

 

[mtrycrafts]

...(that spot between window and patio door I think can't have wiring due to the window/door jams)

Well, in wall wire may be out but surface wire covered with a nice trim could work.
Certainly would be a conversation piece.

 

[Jeff Falkowski]

I am in a very similar circumstance as you. My space is about 11x16 which is similar to your usable space. The pool table area doesn't count other than the sound waves bouncing in odd areas but that's OK.

My first recommendation is upgrading your HDTV. You can get a 55" 1080p OLED set, delivered, for under $1,700 or, if you want to spend some real cash, LG is coming out with the B6 4K OLED with the best picture EVER in a couple of months. Guess is the 65" will be between $3,500 and $5,000 MRSP.

The reason I mention the TV first is I think you set your couch too far from the TV. If you can move it so you're a couple of feet closer, especially if you go with a 4K, the last set up of the 5.2.2 by Latent would be perfect and you could move the surround speaker closest to the couch forward a bit so it would align with the one next to the sliding doors.

I understand you can move your TV closer which would be fantastic with the OLED 4K set but moving the couch closer permanently allows better placement of the speakers.

You could still do a 5.1 that would sound great and the savings on speakers and receiver could put a few hundred, or even over a grand, towards the new TV. Even a 7.1, with ceiling speakers only used as rear speakers, would be nice without the expensive receiver.

However, if you have your heart set on a 7.2.2 setup, I see no reason why you couldn't have ceiling speakers as the rear speakers as long as they're fairly far behind, particularly if the surround speakers are set at ear level. Although it would look like a 5.2.4 it would actually be a 7.2.2 setup.

As far as the surround wiring issue between the slider and window it really depends how much labor, and/or money, you want to spend on hiding the wires. Outside of the main speakers the surrounds are probably the most important. Personally, I think latent's 7.2.2 diagram is good if you eliminate the rear speakers and use the rear ceiling speakers as the rear surround speakers if you go with Atmos.

 

[Jimmy Bond]

Hi All - really appreciate the feedback and ideas. Project is underway now, was at the house today while electricians were wiring the pot lights. I decided to spring for them to do the pre-wiring for the system too, they run wires all day every day and it would probably take me 10 hours to figure it out, especially running speaker wire from our kitchen/dining down to the basement where I will have all my gear.

am going with a 7.2.4 system, really excited about it. Guy at local electronics retailer convinced me to do bookshelves for Surr L / Surr R, and I will do my SBL/SBR as in ceilings, so I have my 'surrounds' at ear level after all, just not on the walls. Have purchased a pair of Kef UniQ300s for the rears, and a Kef UniQ600 for the centre. In the next few years when budget allows I may upgrade the fronts to Goldenears, I am having the electricians wire power outlets behind the towers in anticipation of powered speakers there someday.

System will be powered by a new Yamaha RXA3050. I still need to buy a 2-channel amp to do the full unique 7.2.4 channel surround, for now I might do the setup where it uses the RPR/RPL for when atmos is being played rather than surround backs. I will be using my RXA1000 as the zone 2 for the 3050, and if playing the 3050 in party mode (and the RXA1000 in party mode itself to its two zones) I can have everything linked with no delays in the whole main floor, and controllable through MusicCast - while the RXA1000 isnt on musiccast I can have it triggered by the 3050 for power.

I will have all my gear in a cabinet roughly below the Surrounds, a floor lower. I plan to control everything with a Harmony Smart Control remote setup (IR blaster etc), and the electricians are putting in an HDMI over HDBaseT, full 4k ready.

appreciate the TV upgrade suggestion, OLED is going to be the way I go. I don't even need 4k but will be ready for it anyhow.

lighting in the room is on Caseta wireless system so I can set 'scenes' in the Harmony remote like "movie time" and have the LEDs dim while the TV and gear turns on...the future is here!

really excited about it all, thanks again for the help.

Final version:

 

[Latent]

Good luck Jimmy.

Only comments are that those surround speakers are in the ideal surround back positions. But not the ideal surround positions with the right one being directly behind the couch not being ideal. This may leave a big gap in your right sound stage. Also your TF/TR ceiling speakers are meant to be in line with the FL and FR speakers. But this isn't ideal for the third seating position which is why you have changed this.

I would try it with the rear bookshelf speakers set to surround back and set surround to none. Not sure if the AVR power amp assignment will allow you to skip the 2 channel amp in this layout or not. But you get a 5.2.4 setup and atmos and dts:x up mixers can fill in the missing surround side speakers with virtual speakers by using the front speakers, surround backs and top speakers. Another tip is to try angling the surround back speakers to try and widen them. Especially the right one so that more sound bounces off the right wall. You could even consider adding surround side speakers into the ceiling instead of the surround backs but it may sound better with fewer speakers that are positioned better than more badly positioned ones.

Aldo note the rx-a3050 is one of the only AVR's that records the speaker angle with mic setup and you may want to try tweak the angles it finds a little. I don't know if this angle knowledge is used by atmos and dts:x as the manual states it is for the cinema dsp effects.

 

[agarwalro]

Sorry to come in late with this. It seems you don't have the room to properly place 5.x speakers. Trying to stuff more speakers in there is only an exercise in wasting your time and money. You mentioned removing the pool table and creating a "proper" HT. IMHO, save your money now and spend (and setup) wisely later.

Dolby recommends this for the usual 5.x setup.

The surround speakers should be 2-3 ft. above ear height when seated and the back speakers should be 3.5 ft. behind the seat. None are allowed to be in-ceiling. If you twist my arm, I'd acquiesce that in-ceilings may be used for back speakers, if they are the kind that can pivot to point in one direction or the other. The result is still sub optimal.

Maybe for now you can run the wires and terminate them with wall plates at the correct locations. You'd save a lot of hassle when you eventually are ready to set up the next iteration of you theater.

 

[Jimmy Bond]

to be clear - the pool table in this room design was Latent's joking suggestion, not mine. It stemmed from me saying I have a pool table in my basement which will be the home of a future home theatre someday, optimized for proper speaker placement. For this room, I am constrained by the staircase at rear of room for optimal placement. and by the windows on the sides. this way is going to sound great, I am coming from having two towers as all my sound. I know it is not optimal for the specs, but this is real life - I can't have speaker stands in the middle of my room. I will be angling bookshelves like Latent suggests. the YPAO will compensate for all the speaker locations.

 

[Jimmy Bond]

ps this is a room that I can enjoy with 7.2.4, and my wife feels that I haven't taken over the space with speakers etc.

 

[KenM10759]

Sorry to come in late with this. It seems you don't have the room to properly place 5.x speakers. Trying to stuff more speakers in there is only an exercise in wasting your time and money. You mentioned removing the pool table and creating a "proper" HT. IMHO, save your money now and spend (and setup) wisely later.

Dolby recommends this for the usual 5.x setup.

The surround speakers should be 2-3 ft. above ear height when seated and the back speakers should be 3.5 ft. behind the seat. None are allowed to be in-ceiling. If you twist my arm, I'd acquiesce that in-ceilings may be used for back speakers, if they are the kind that can pivot to point in one direction or the other. The result is still sub optimal.

Maybe for now you can run the wires and terminate them with wall plates at the correct locations. You'd save a lot of hassle when you eventually are ready to set up the next iteration of you theater.

Isn't that a 7.1 system layout?