Question about subwoofer purchase

[matt houser]

I've read that 2 Subs are better than one and that you really shouldn't miss match the two subs, well I have decided to get a second sub, The one I have now is the PSW111 from Polk Audio, it's an 8" 150 watts RMS but it only dips down to 38 htz. which from what I've been reading isn't that low, so my question is am I better off mismatching this sub with a one that reaches lower or just getting a second PSW111

 

[shadyJ]

Two subs are better than one for achieving a more even response. You will need a way to measure how the subs affect the response though, or else you might not get any positive effect at all. Also, and I get that you might not be rich, the low end Polk subs are pretty awful. It might be tricky trying to get a even response from subwoofers that are very uneven to begin with. Buying another cheap Polk sub is just throwing good money good money after bad.

 

[matt houser]

I appreciate the honest feedback, I guess my next question would be, with around a $1,500 budget, maybe a little more, are there any opinions on a starting point toward a new system, I thought about one of the Klipsch 5.1 systems, sound clarity is probably the most important to me, I do love to watch a good movie from time to time but what I really love is to crank up some crisp sounding tunes, for that reason I might lean toward some towers in the front over bookshelf speakers, there's so much to choose from, especially in my limited budget range, I just want to know that I'm buying quality, that way I don't end up buying crap Polk subs

 

[shadyJ]

I would go with a 2.1 system in that budget. A 5.1 system in that budget is fairly compromised. You will get a lot better overall sound with 2.1, and you can build on it, whereas a 5.1 in that budget you would mostly just have to replace everything and start over again if you wanted to upgrade.

As for cranking up some tunes, a 2.1 with bookshelf speakers would be much better than tower speakers. Tower speakers do not have the bass performance of a good subwoofer, but some good bookshelf speakers will keep up with the towers in the frequency range above that of subs, so, for the same cost, it is a more efficient, higher performing system overall.

If you want something you can crank and still get a nice sound, I would be looking at a Hsu Hybrid 3 2.1 system, the speakers are good and the sub is amazing. I would also look at a Ascend Acoustics CBM-170/ Rythmik subwoofer FVX15 system. Use the remainder of your budget to buy the best Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon, or Marantz receiver you can find. Those systems will kill an equivalent Klipsch system of the same price.

 

[matt houser]

OK so your advice makes a lot of sense And I really like the Hsu speakers that you recommended, I do find it surprising however that you recommend bookshelf speakers over towers but then again that's why I came to these forums, there are many things I have yet to learn, so what I didn't mention is that I do have a 5.1 system set up already, but just like the Polk audio sub, I didn't make educated purchases, especially back several years ago when I purchased most of this system, The main reason for my upgrade is that my receiver has gone obsolete, it doesn't support HDMI and that has left me in the past when it comes to things like Dolby true HD, The current system I have right now consists of a Harman Kardon AVR 125, A polk CSI- 20 Center channel, 2 Bose direct reflecting 301's as the front channels which are only a year old, and a couple of infinity satellite speakers as the surrounds, it's an OK sounding system but I think I could do way better by applying some research unlike I did when purchasing this system, by upgrading to the HSU system that you recommended how much of an upgrade do you think I would be getting and what's your opinion on the system that I have now, I really want something that sounds great and I am willing to work toward it, thanks for your replies

 

[shadyJ]

I think the Hsu system will blow your current one away. The Bose may have a more 'spacious' sound stage, but it has no imaging, and it has a horrendous frequency response, ie it is not at all an accurate speaker. The Polk CSI-20 is so-so, probably not horrible since it is apart of the RTi line, but there are certainly better center speakers out there. If you can accommodate the dimensions of a regular bookshelf speaker over the typical horizontal center speaker design, I would encourage you to do so, as conventional horizontal center speakers compromise the sound in favor of a more convenient form factor. The Hsu sub is incomparably better to your current bass system, just leagues ahead in performance. Depending on your room dimensions, the Bose speakers might be serviceable as surround speakers, but even then I would eventually replace them with something more accurate. I have some things to do at the moment, but I can give you more detailed advice concerning setup and placement later if you would like.

 

[KEW]

I do find it surprising however that you recommend bookshelf speakers over towers but then again that's why I came to these forums...

Look at it this way. A larger speaker has one advantage almost always - that is more bass. However the new styled slim speakers with 3 7" drivers still don't really give that much bass. So that means you'll want a subwoofer (especially for HT). To find a good speaker that provides full range sound $3500 is the price of admission (Philharmonic 3); but that is still not LFE for HT.

So, if you are getting a sub, consider how much of the cost of a floorstanding speaker is being wasted on attempting to produce solid bass - Extra driver(s), Extra cabinet, shipping and handling costs, etc.
On top of that, larger cabinets are more prone to resonance, so bookshelf speakers offer tighter, cleaner sound. In higher price ranges companies start putting more money into cabinet bracing.
In any case, you are better off investing that money in higher quality components instead of attempting to provide bass.
If you have a sub, your speaker only really needs to produce bass down to 50-60 Hz which most bookshelf speakers can do quite easily.

The other advantage of floorstanders is they usually can get a little bit louder, which reminds me of a question we should ask...
What are the dimensions of your listening area?

 

[matt houser]

I absolutely would like to hear some more from you, my ultimate goal is to eventually end up with a sweet 7.2 set up, just shoot it to me straight forward, I really like the recommended HSU system, as something to work toward would you recommend a complete 7.2 set up with all HSU speakers & sub or would you go with something else for the center and surrounds, and if you did recommend a complete HSU set up would you still then pass up the conventional HSU center channel for a regular satellite speaker, thanks for all your time and I look forward to hearing from you again

 

[matt houser]

Look at it this way. A larger speaker has one advantage almost always - that is more bass. However the new styled slim speakers with 3 7" drivers still don't really give that much bass. So that means you'll want a subwoofer (especially for HT). To find a good speaker that provides full range sound $3500 is the price of admission (Philharmonic 3); but that is still not LFE for HT.

So, if you are getting a sub, consider how much of the cost of a floorstanding speaker is being wasted on attempting to produce solid bass - Extra driver(s), Extra cabinet, shipping and handling costs, etc.
On top of that, larger cabinets are more prone to resonance, so bookshelf speakers offer tighter, cleaner sound. In higher price ranges companies start putting more money into cabinet bracing.
In any case, you are better off investing that money in higher quality components instead of attempting to provide bass.
If you have a sub, your speaker only really needs to produce bass down to 50-60 Hz which most bookshelf speakers can do quite easily.

Thee other advantage of floorstanders is they usually can get a little bit louder, which reminds me of a question we should ask...
What are the dimensions of your listening area?

 

[matt houser]

You're probably going to laugh at this, i'm so concerned with these floorstanding speakers but the truth is you guys are probably right about the satellite speakers, I measured my room the other day and I am only at 250 ft.², so my room is very small, I have a large kitchen off to the side but the living room itself is pretty small

 

[KEW]

I absolutely would like to hear some more from you, my ultimate goal is to eventually end up with a sweet 7.2 set up, just shoot it to me straight forward, I really like the recommended HSU system, as something to work toward would you recommend a complete 7.2 set up with all HSU speakers & sub or would you go with something else for the center and surrounds, and if you did recommend a complete HSU set up would you still then pass up the conventional HSU center channel for a regular satellite speaker, thanks for all your time and I look forward to hearing from you again

Start with the 2.1 system. When you are ready to expand the system, you can decide if you want to audition some others. There are plenty of good speakers in this price range. Unless you are very experienced (musician or spend lots of time around quality sound) and have strong opinions about different speakers, I think it is necessary to own and live with good speakers (such as the Hsu) before you are in a position to properly discriminate among other good speakers!

Here is a great thread with a guy doing a comparison of several speakers:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/2233954-2-0-bookshelf-compared-wharfedale-philharmonic-chane-musichall-elac-energy-kef.html

When you are ready to expand your system, info like that might help you decide what characteristics you want relative to the Hsu, and often there is someone hear who can make suggestions on your best candidates, so you can listen/decide for yourself.

On the other hand, you may just be pleased as punch with your Hsu's and not want to mess with doing any auditions of other speakers. That is good too!

 

[KEW]

You're probably going to laugh at this, i'm so concerned with these floorstanding speakers but the truth is you guys are probably right about the satellite speakers, I measured my room the other day and I am only at 250 ft.², so my room is very small, I have a large kitchen off to the side but the living room itself is pretty small

250 is a nice size for a listening space, but very comfortable for Bookshelfs (we usually think of satellites as tiny speakers with 3", maybe 4" woofers like the HT in a box systems).

Hopefully you can arrange it so your seating is not up against the back wall!

 

[matt houser]

I think the Hsu system will blow your current one away. The Bose may have a more 'spacious' sound stage, but it has no imaging, and it has a horrendous frequency response, ie it is not at all an accurate speaker. The Polk CSI-20 is so-so, probably not horrible since it is apart of the RTi line, but there are certainly better center speakers out there. If you can accommodate the dimensions of a regular bookshelf speaker over the typical horizontal center speaker design, I would encourage you to do so, as conventional horizontal center speakers compromise the sound in favor of a more convenient form factor. The Hsu sub is incomparably better to your current bass system, just leagues ahead in performance. Depending on your room dimensions, the Bose speakers might be serviceable as surround speakers, but even then I would eventually replace them with something more accurate. I have some things to do at the moment, but I can give you more detailed advice concerning setup and placement later if you would like.

ShadyJ, so I think I've decided on spending a tad bit more & getting the complete HSU 5.1 system, I just wanted to be sure, earlier you suggested I pass up the conventional center channel speaker for a bookshelf, just wanted to be sure, are you suggesting I pass up the HSU center channel that goes with the 5.1 system & if so would a 5th HB-1 MK2 work equally well or better than a horizontal center, thanks

 

[shadyJ]

Yes, I would advocate that you go with a bookshelf speaker over a center speaker for the center channel if you can fit it. It simply performs better. Here is a bunch of articles detailing the hows and whys if you are interested in the technical reasons why regular speakers are better than horizontal MTMs: here, here, here, and here. The short version is drivers aligned on a horizontal plane can create problems in the frequency response. It doesn't work as well, and it is also more expensive. The design exists for placement convenience, not performance.

May I ask what your room dimensions and speaker distance from listening position will be?

 

[matt houser]

Yes, I would advocate that you go with a bookshelf speaker over a center speaker for the center channel if you can fit it. It simply performs better. Here is a bunch of articles detailing the hows and whys if you are interested in the technical reasons why regular speakers are better than horizontal MTMs: here, here, here, and here. The short version is drivers aligned on a horizontal plane can create problems in the frequency response. It doesn't work as well, and it is also more expensive. The design exists for placement convenience, not performance.

May I ask what your room dimensions and speaker distance from listening position will be?

My living is 250 square feet, I do have a good size kitchen off the side of it, and Im only about 7-10 feet away from the center channel, the fronts, not too much further away than that either

 

[shadyJ]

The Hsu setup should work fine there. Try to follow a placement scheme like this as closely as you can. If you have room for a stand-off distance for the speakers as is suggested in the owner's guide, that is great, but they don't need it to sound good. Hopefully you have different places where you can try the subwoofer, because the subwoofer's sound can vary by a lot in different locations. A beast like the VTF3 will still give you some massive bass in a room like that regardless. For whatever AVR you end up with, remember to run the room equalization routine on it. It's a nice feature that a lot of people don't bother with.

 

[KEW]

For whatever AVR you end up with, remember to run the room equalization routine on it. It's a nice feature that a lot of people don't bother with.

I've always wondered what percentage of AVR's get sold with RoomEQ and the owner never plugs in the microphone!
It may be a little better now that the receivers prompt you in the initial setup routine, but I still bet it is close to 50%!

 

[Auditor55]

If you have a good subwoofer you don't need towers, you're paying for furniture when you buy towers plus subs.

 

[Auditor55]

I've always wondered what percentage of AVR's get sold with RoomEQ and the owner never plugs in the microphone!
It may be a little better now that the receivers prompt you in the initial setup routine, but I still bet it is close to 50%!

You know Gene doesn't speak to highly of AVR auto-cal.

 

[Auditor55]

I appreciate the honest feedback, I guess my next question would be, with around a $1,500 budget, maybe a little more, are there any opinions on a starting point toward a new system, I thought about one of the Klipsch 5.1 systems, sound clarity is probably the most important to me, I do love to watch a good movie from time to time but what I really love is to crank up some crisp sounding tunes, for that reason I might lean toward some towers in the front over bookshelf speakers, there's so much to choose from, especially in my limited budget range, I just want to know that I'm buying quality, that way I don't end up buying crap Polk subs

SVS Prime 5.1 Satellite system is $999 (that 5 speakers with SB 1000). SVS give you 45 day trial period and one year to upgrade.