Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
Actually, I think my first exposure to classical music was in cartoons but I didn't know it at the time. It's only later when I heard some piece on the radio and I remembered hearing it in a cartoon. That started my interest.
A colleague and I were just discussing this in the office a short time ago. Warner Brothers introduced classical music to multiple generations of children. I didn't even know who Lalo was until I was in my twenties, and heard the Symphonie Espagnole in a concert, but in my mind I saw an elephant's butt swaying to the melody. :)
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
A colleague and I were just discussing this in the office a short time ago. Warner Brothers introduced classical music to multiple generations of children. I didn't even know who Lalo was until I was in my twenties, and heard the Symphonie Espagnole in a concert, but in my mind I saw an elephant's butt swaying to the melody. :)
I see you've met my first wife.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Actually, I think my first exposure to classical music was in cartoons but I didn't know it at the time. It's only later when I heard some piece on the radio and I remembered hearing it in a cartoon. That started my interest.

http://mentalfloss.com/article/66672/15-pieces-classical-music-showed-looney-tunes
You don't remember The Lone Ranger? His famous musical theme is from the William Tell Overture written by the equally famous Italian opera composer, Giaochino Rossini.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Bach, Beethoven, and Brahms. The three "B"s of German music, and everyone has a favorite. That doesn't make any one superior to another. They just appeal to different tastes.

Me personally, I prefer Bach but will not disparage any other composer. Any one can bring beauty into peoples lives and that is laudable.

But, Bach WAS a tremendous organist in more ways than one.

He sired twenty children, ten of which lived to maturity. The most famous was C.P.E (Carl Phillip Emanuel) who went on to become a composer in his own right. Good, yes, but he didn't have his fathers gift. He did gain a bit of fame, though.

JS had other children who went on to greatness but never received the fame of CPE.

On son went into accounting. That was CPA Bach.

Another became a notorious tax collector. That would be IRS Bach.
It is not about disparaging any other composer or musician.

It is all about giving J.S. Bach his due in creating the musical world we know today. It was Bach who basically created to sound world we have inhabited since. Prior to J.S. Bach music was in the so called "mean tone." This was difficult to use. Basically what Bach's "Well tempered tone" tone is all about was splitting the difference in pitch between the frequency intervals of the notes of the octave. That is what his book of compositions in the Well Tempered Clavier is all about. It is basically the instruction manual in how to compose in this system.

The thing to remember about J.S. Bach and be grateful for his life, is not just his music, but his huge contribution as innovator and above all teacher. He could play every instrument except the lute. He was a virtuoso on keyboards, especially the organ, the violin, cello and oboe.

Add to this his enormous and varied output that has greatly and profoundly influenced all who came after.

Not only that, but Bach understood the mechanics of the organ, and was known to be hands on. He was called upon to specify and test organs. Organ builders were known to quake in their boots if they knew Bach was coming to test their creation. Bach's famous Toccata and Fugue in D minor, was almost certainly written as a torture test for new organs. Incidentally it also is probably the best single test piece for audio systems, all the way from subs to tweeters and including power amps. His writing will distinguish peak from continuous power in a hurry. That is because he was testing the organ "windage".

Therefore it was not surprising that polls of professional musicians and music lovers, voted Bach the composer of the millennium in the year 2000.

Irv has mentioned the Beethoven piano sonatas. This is one of the most important bodies of work in all music. However the ghost of Bach hovers over the scores. And like Bach, Beethoven was writing for another time, and said so.

A really good example of Bach's teaching over Beethoven is his variations, on Rule Britannia. This tune has been a show stopper, when it was written for a Masque on Alfred the Great by Thomas Arne in 1740. Beethoven, never one to pass up a good tune wrote variations for piano on the tune. You can just hear Beethoven saying to himself. "What would old J.S. Bach have done with this". Beethoven turns it upside down backwards and every which way. Clearly he had been taught well and it is obvious by whom.

Another classic is the justly loved Rachmaninoff Variations on Theme by Paganini. What is done with this simple theme by Paganini is right out of Bach's instruction manuals! Examples like these though are just legion and are huge part of J. S. Bach's profound influence and legacy.

The other thing about Bach's music is that it shines though the most outrageous treatment and arrangements of others. However I think that is what he intended.

The only people who have done Bach serious harm has been the older generation of professional musicians who have tried to impose a wholly unwarranted rigidity on Bach's rhythms. Whereas as Sir John Elliot Gardener has been at pains to point out, Bach's rhythms are intended to be highly elastic and frequently based on dance. Sir John is one in a long line of late 20 century and early 21st century performing scholars who have done so much to release Bach's music from so much harm from misconception. The worst is that Bach laid out his scores based on mathematical principles. That is now totally debunked. Not that Bach was not organized at his work bench he was and had to be.

Sir John considers J.S Bach the greatest musician who ever lived. He says so and makes the case in his Biography of Bach, "Music in the Castle of Heaven."
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Mark, I too am a lover of JS Bach, and your passion is laudable. In all of the movies and television shows and videos I have seen, the most moving musical performance I remember is Yo Yo Ma's recital of the Suite No 1 for Cello in an episode of The West Wing. After first hearing it, I acquired every one of Ma's performances of Bach I could find, and I still remember the episode vividly to this day. No other composer's music could have had similar impact, IMO.

On the other hand, if Beethoven wrote nothing else except the 32 piano sonatas we'd still be having a debate, just based on that one body of work. And, as you, know, Beethoven produced a lot of other work that's pure genius. You may dismiss the debate, but, frankly, I don't stand in awe of any of Bach's music the way I do those 32 works. As a massive body of work Bach may be the pinnacle, but the piano sonatas are, what a friend of mine used to call, my desert island music. (The music I would take with me to be marooned a desert island, if I could have no other.) It wouldn't be Bach. Preference is always debatable.
I agree with everything you have to say.

The piano sonatas of Beethoven are are truly marvelous and revolutionary body of work. I have three complete sets,

Yo Yo Ma has championed the solo cello suites of Bach, for many years. He played all six from memory in last season's Proms. He played to a sold out crowd of over 10.000 in the RAH. It was televised and I watched downloaded from iPalyer.

In the interview he said he keeps them in his core repertory as many have told him it has helped them cope with severe loss in their lives. Bach wrote them after the unexpected death of his first wife, while he was away. Despite that there is lots of dance!

Herbu has asked me to compile a short discography. May be you would like to help. There is so much great music.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
J.S. Bach... He is the greatest musician that ever lived and that is not debatable. He is.
What?

Everyone knows that Mozart & Beethoven are unequivocally the 2 best. :D

1. Mozart
2. Beethoven
3. Bach
 
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F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
What?

Everyone knows that Mozart & Beethoven are unequivocally the 2 best. :D

1. Mozart
2. Beethoven
3. Bach
In my view both Mozart and Bach composed music typical of their times but they did it better than others. Beethoven did his own thing his own way and represented an important link between the classical and romantic styles. I view Beethoven as the most creative of the three. Obviously all were musicians of consummate talent and success. There are equally creative people in modern and contemporary American musical styles. Robert Johnson, Louis Armstrong and even the Beatles made similar contributions to music. Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da.
 
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Mark of Cenla

Full Audioholic
Sorry, but I prefer Chick Corea over all of those dead guys. Peace and goodwill.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
It is still a bit surprising how often I can hear influence of the masters in today's music. Early Ian Anderson, (Jethro Tull), is one of the most noticeable examples, even to the uninitiated.

Mark and Irv, how about suggesting a CD or two to champion your choice!

I like both Beethoven and Bach, but am not nearly so familiar with their works as I should be.:(

However, to reach a resolution to this debate, I think we should defer to a young virtuoso pianist who manages to make even a toy piano sound like a professional jazz trio:





Clearly Schroeder is the man (although I personally prefer Chopin).
Bach is the composer you already know, but don't. His influence has been pervasive and transformative in all genres of music.

I will start here with this, as it will cost nothing and you will be able to see the instruments on Bach's time. It is from the Proms 2014.


A sampling of Bach's major works for organ is a must and contains the ultimate audio evaluation piece, the Toccata and Fugue in D Minor.

If you don't know them then a good recording of the Brandenberg concertos is recommended.
These were written as part of a job application. Bach did not get the job!

For Christmas Bach wrote lots of music.

Here is a sampling. The Magnificat.

The Christmas Oratorio.

You can't go wrong with any of the keyboard recordings by Angel Hewitt or Andras Schiff.

If you want to explore one of his really major works, then this SACD of the B Minor Mass is highly recommended.

It is not clear why, or for what purpose, Bach wrote this work. Bach was steeped in the Lutheran tradition. It seems it was likely written for the Catholics in Dresden. You can see that this work had a huge influence on Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. This work gave Beethoven a lot of trouble and was delivered fours years late!

If you are up to a years pilgrimage and a wonderful musical journey, then this.

But honestly you can't go wrong exploring any of Bach's enormous opus of works that survive. He never descended to the second rate.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
What?

Everyone knows that Mozart & Beethoven are unequivocally the 2 best. :D

1. Mozart
2. Beethoven
3. Bach
Yes, but Bach was the essential teacher of your top two. Mozart studied him intensively as a child and copied many of his scores. Bach stands astride everything that came after. Truly the Alpha and the Omega.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
Bach is the composer you already know, but don't. His influence has been pervasive and transformative in all genres of music.

I will start here with this, as it will cost nothing and you will be able to see the instruments on Bach's time. It is from the Proms 2014.


A sampling of Bach's major works for organ is a must and contains the ultimate audio evaluation piece, the Toccata and Fugue in D Minor.

If you don't know them then a good recording of the Brandenberg concertos is recommended.
These were written as part of a job application. Bach did not get the job!

For Christmas Bach wrote lots of music.

Here is a sampling. The Magnificat.

The Christmas Oratorio.

You can't go wrong with any of the keyboard recordings by Angel Hewitt or Andras Schiff.

If you want to explore one of his really major works, then this SACD of the B Minor Mass is highly recommended.

It is not clear why, or for what purpose, Bach wrote this work. Bach was steeped in the Lutheran tradition. It seems it was likely written for the Catholics in Dresden. You can see that this work had a huge influence on Beethoven's Missa Solemnis. This work gave Beethoven a lot of trouble and was delivered fours years late!

If you are up to a years pilgrimage and a wonderful musical journey, then this.

But honestly you can't go wrong exploring any of Bach's enormous opus of works that survive. He never descended to the second rate.
The Brandenburg Concertos have long been a favorite of mine, but you have impressed upon me what a narrow slice that is. Thanks!
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Sorry, but I prefer Chick Corea over all of those dead guys. Peace and goodwill.
My favorite dead guy is Oscar Peterson who I have heard in person in 5 different cities. I have over 50 of his records. But Corea is good too.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
To me it's all about personal preference. So it's 100% equivocal.

I think Bach's music all sound very similar. Mozart's & Beethoven's music are more unique and stylish.

But that's just my personal preference.
 
crossedover

crossedover

Audioholic Chief
To me it's all about personal preference. So it's 100% equivocal.

I think Bach's music all sound very similar. Mozart's & Beethoven's music are more unique and stylish.

But that's just my personal preference.
I dont see that at all with JSB :(
 
Irvrobinson

Irvrobinson

Audioholic Spartan
The piano sonatas of Beethoven are are truly marvelous and revolutionary body of work. I have three complete sets.


And here I thought I was the only one impressed enough to have multiple recordings of the complete set. I only own two now though, I gave away two others. One is the Decca set by Alfred Brendel. Brendel plays these pieces with more energy than anyone I've ever heard. I have to admit, however, that I listen to O'Conor's version on Telarc more often. It's more "by the book", but in the end more enjoyable over time.

For Bach, anything Yo Yo Ma; I think I own them all. For the Brandenburgs I like Trevor Pinnock's version, which uses period instruments. In fact, I own several albums of Pinnock's stuff for Bach.
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
And here I thought I was the only one impressed enough to have multiple recordings of the complete set. I only own two now though, I gave away two others. One is the Decca set by Alfred Brendel. Brendel plays these pieces with more energy than anyone I've ever heard. I have to admit, however, that I listen to O'Conor's version on Telarc more often. It's more "by the book", but in the end more enjoyable over time.

For Bach, anything Yo Yo Ma; I think I own them all. For the Brandenburgs I like Trevor Pinnock's version, which uses period instruments. In fact, I own several albums of Pinnock's stuff for Bach.
Yeah, Trevor Pinnock is the one I settled on. The use of the recorder (?) instead of flute is what really made it work for me.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
Chiming in a bit late. Beethoven is my favorite, but I have nothing against Bach. Don't forget JSB's least accomplished descendant, PDQ Bach.

Yesterday, Dec. 8th, was the 202nd anniversary of the debut of Beethoven's 7th symphony, my favorite of his big works. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._7_(Beethoven)

Last summer I saw the Brandenburg Concertos performed live by an ensemble from the BSO. I had heard recordings, but I'd never seen it live. The musicians obviously knew the music well, it was a last minute substitution for some other cancelled program, but they were clearly having a lot of fun. I hadn't expected that.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Chiming in a bit late. Beethoven is my favorite, but I have nothing against Bach. Don't forget JSB's least accomplished descendant, PDQ Bach.

Yesterday, Dec. 8th, was the 202nd anniversary of the debut of Beethoven's 7th symphony, my favorite of his big works. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._7_(Beethoven)

Last summer I saw the Brandenburg Concertos performed live by an ensemble from the BSO. I had heard recordings, but I'd never seen it live. The musicians obviously knew the music well, it was a last minute substitution for some other cancelled program, but they were clearly having a lot of fun. I hadn't expected that.
Swerd click on the YouTube link in my post above on this page. You will see Sir John having enormous fun with this band. He is one of the greatest exponents of "Get Up and Go Bach." Prepare to be thoroughly blown away. Picture is 1080p and the sound is magnificent BBC engineering. I promise this really will blow you away. The sound is better than most commercial CDs.
 
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