DECENT TURNTABLE WANTED TO BUY

ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Hey guys,
I need a table as I sold my vintage Sota Sapphire, I'm not looking at something comparable to the Sota, I want a simple table that won't brake the bank account. I've been looking at the Project Debut Carbon DC, Rega Rp1 and others in this price range. I'm not particularly fond of the anti-skate with a thread or line with a weight on the end. I would appreciate any feedback on these tables or any that you could reco. TIA

Cheers Jeff
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Hey guys,
I need a table as I sold my vintage Sota Sapphire, I'm not looking at something comparable to the Sota, I want a simple table that won't brake the bank account. I've been looking at the Project Debut Carbon DC, Rega Rp1 and others in this price range. I'm not particularly fond of the anti-skate with a thread or line with a weight on the end. I would appreciate any feedback on these tables or any that you could reco. TIA

Cheers Jeff
Take you pick. However the nylon thread and weight is absolutely the best way to provide anti skating force for multiple reasons. It is simple, 100% reliable and full proof and as the angle of the thread changes, then the required anti skating force auto adjusts. I would not have any other way of doing this.
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Take you pick. However the nylon thread and weight is absolutely the best way to provide anti skating force for multiple reasons. It is simple, 100% reliable and full proof and as the angle of the thread changes, then the required anti skating force auto adjusts. I would not have any other way of doing this.

Mark, thank you for the reply as I did not know this about the anti skating device, this really opens up my options. That was the one detriment that was keeping me from pursuing these table.
Much appreciated.

Jeffrey
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I agree that I don't like the LOOKS of that cheesy anti skate hanging weight.

But, I trust TLS's advice on this topic so it's good to know that I'm simply biased on the appearance and the actual task is handled well with this setup.

1 note on the Debut, the mat that comes with it is terrible!!! It is freaking cheap flimsy piece of junk felt and it tends to try to come up with your record!

Note my avatar pic and note that the pic has a spare mat from my Technics on it. Now you know why.

I have since replaced the Technics mat with the Pro-Ject cork mat.

It's overall a minor complaint, just be ready to shell out an extra $25 for the cork mat or an extra $120 for the Acryl-It Platter!

PS--Have you looked at the U-Turn TTs?
http://store.uturnaudio.com/
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I agree that I don't like the LOOKS of that cheesy anti skate hanging weight.

But, I trust TLS's advice on this topic so it's good to know that I'm simply biased on the appearance and the actual task is handled well with this setup.

1 note on the Debut, the mat that comes with it is terrible!!! It is freaking cheap flimsy piece of junk felt and it tends to try to come up with your record!

Note my avatar pic and note that the pic has a spare mat from my Technics on it. Now you know why.

I have since replaced the Technics mat with the Pro-Ject cork mat.

It's overall a minor complaint, just be ready to shell out an extra $25 for the cork mat or an extra $120 for the Acryl-It Platter!

PS--Have you looked at the U-Turn TTs?
http://store.uturnaudio.com/
This issue of the anti skating weight comes up often. To honest, I'm baffled as to why someone would want a complex solution when there is a simple elegant one available.



To me that has the elegance of form and function and totally fail to see what is "cheesy" about it.
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Thanks Mark and Slip, I have to admit the simple method of the anti skate is surely appealing after seeing the picture. I was also concerned about the mat and platter, I'm seriously thinking of getting the acrylic one but it's hard to justify $129....well maybe not. I'm also concerned about the platter speed being consistent, is it also worth stepping up to the Carbon DC model. So that would be the Project Debut Carbon DC with acrylic platter. I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

I have read about the U-Turn tables and from my research I have found many complaints with the motor and speed stability of the platter. This was also a problem with the original Project Debut Carbon with the AC power supply, this was replaced with DC, thus the DC designation of the Project Debut. TIA guys.
Jeffrey
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I have not s
Thanks Mark and Slip, I have to admit the simple method of the anti skate is surely appealing after seeing the picture. I was also concerned about the mat and platter, I'm seriously thinking of getting the acrylic one but it's hard to justify $129....well maybe not. I'm also concerned about the platter speed being consistent, is it also worth stepping up to the Carbon DC model. So that would be the Project Debut Carbon DC with acrylic platter. I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

I have read about the U-Turn tables and from my research I have found many complaints with the motor and speed stability of the platter. This was also a problem with the original Project Debut Carbon with the AC power supply, this was replaced with DC, thus the DC designation of the Project Debut. TIA guys.
Jeffrey
I have not yet come across those complaints on the U Turn. Could you provide a link.

I did read a review on the Debut AC version where the guy ran it stock, then with Acryl-It Upgrade and then with Speedbox upgrade. It's been a while, dunno if I can find that review again.

His conclusion was that the Acryl-It did not improve the sound at all! But, he did like the snazzy look of that platter, and you don't need a mat with that platter. Personally, not worth $129 to me!!! I also contacted U Turn to see if their acrylic platter was compatible....nope. He did claim that the speed box improved the sound by maintaining better timing. I would suspect that he was correct.

See my avatar, I have the Debut Carbon AC version.
Here are my nits to pick
*The stock mat is crap
*I don't like the look of the anti skate hanging weight
*The power supply is a wall wart

Other than those minor complaints, it really is a nice TT. And the fit and finish on it are incredible, really high WAF on these! Plus, it comes with a $100 cart stock.

Back to the speedbox or the DC upgrade. I suspect that this is indeed an upgrade that is worth the $. But, I have never hooked up a speedbox on mine nor have I heard the DC. I have been considering a quartz oscillator build for this TT, but it's low on my project list. But, also keep in mind that the mass and the momentum of the platter will help to stabilize the speed.

Overall, I'm pleased with the Debut Carbon. I bought it just before the DC model hit the market, so I got a good price on it. But, if I knew the DC was on the horizon, I would have waited to get it instead. All that being said, I certainly never heard anything that sounds like poor speed stability on it.

I do personally prefer my Technics SL1210, but that turntable is also ~3x the price!
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Thanks my friend, I definitely will get the the Project Debut Carbon DC and probably the mat you linked. I don't think the Espirit SB is worth it but I could be wrong. I don't have a problem with changing a belt position on the pulley to change speeds which I may never do anyway. I do like the DC version though. Here is that link, I don't know how accurate these statements are, they picked the AT 120 as the best budget TT and the upgrade is the Debut Carbon. Thanks again.
http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-turntable/
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
Thanks my friend, I definitely will get the the Project Debut Carbon DC and probably the mat you linked. I don't think the Espirit SB is worth it but I could be wrong. I don't have a problem with changing a belt position on the pulley to change speeds which I may never do anyway. I do like the DC version though. Here is that link, I don't know how accurate these statements are, they picked the AT 120 as the best budget TT and the upgrade is the Debut Carbon. Thanks again.
http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-turntable/
Well, I didn't link the mat, but I will now
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DHOLLSG?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage
That's the one I use.

I rarely change the belt position. If I want to listen at a different speed, I just use my other TT with push button selection :cool:

If you do change the belt, I recommend wearing some powder-free gloves for the process. No need to get you finger oils on the belt!
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
ProJect makes nice turntables. I'm very pleased with the one I have now and the one that got damaged in a flood.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks my friend, I definitely will get the the Project Debut Carbon DC and probably the mat you linked. I don't think the Espirit SB is worth it but I could be wrong. I don't have a problem with changing a belt position on the pulley to change speeds which I may never do anyway. I do like the DC version though. Here is that link, I don't know how accurate these statements are, they picked the AT 120 as the best budget TT and the upgrade is the Debut Carbon. Thanks again.
http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-turntable/
You know Jeffery, there is a lot of nonsense about turntable motors.

Two of my turntables are late 50s era Garrard 301's unmodified. These use AC induction motors right off the mains AC. Speed is set accurately with an eddy current brake. The only slight problem is that you need to run these turntables about 5 to 10 minutes before playing, as they tend to run a little slow until warm up. After that they run rock steady and you never need to touch the speed adjuster. The turntables have heavy turntables, and I have never heard speed instability.

The 60s vintage Thorens TD 150 uses a Swiss Papst 16 pole synchronous motor, right off the AC. There is no fine speed adjustment. This works fine and speed is bang on after years. The turntable is heavy. Now with the motor spinning fairly fast and connected to the platter by a belt, I really don't think you are going the hear the 16 poles especially with the heavy turntable and the damping of the rubber belt. This approach is simple and there is virtually nothing to go wrong.

I just do not believe the "golden ears" hear this so called "cogging" from a motor like this. I certainly can't.

My Thorens TD 125, has high frequency AC servo control like the Studer/Revox turntables. That is all fine, however this adds complexity which can and does fail. I bought mine cheap non working.

Now the rage is DC servo motors. This is less complex than AC square wave generator servo, and the drive is totally smooth. The only advantage I suppose, is that it allows for lighter platters.

However, I think for durability and trouble free ownership, there is nothing wrong with foregoing servo control, using a nice heavy platter and powering directly from the grid.

I'm of the opinion that you should never add complexity without a good reason. The move away from direct AC drive, is purely theoretical and I believe has no advantage.

Pretty much all the speed instability from a turntable comes from the fact that the hole in the LP is just about never perfectly centered. All other causes of speed instability (wow) pale in comparison to that.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
You know Jeffery, there is a lot of nonsense about turntable motors.

Two of my turntables are late 50s era Garrard 301's unmodified. These use AC induction motors right off the mains AC. Speed is set accurately with an eddy current brake. The only slight problem is that you need to run these turntables about 5 to 10 minutes before playing, as they tend to run a little slow until warm up. After that they run rock steady and you never need to touch the speed adjuster. The turntables have heavy turntables, and I have never heard speed instability.

The 60s vintage Thorens TD 150 uses a Swiss Papst 16 pole synchronous motor, right off the AC. There is no fine speed adjustment. This works fine and speed is bang on after years. The turntable is heavy. Now with the motor spinning fairly fast and connected to the platter by a belt, I really don't think you are going the hear the 16 poles especially with the heavy turntable and the damping of the rubber belt. This approach is simple and there is virtually nothing to go wrong.

I just do not believe the "golden ears" hear this so called "cogging" from a motor like this. I certainly can't.
That makes two of us. I even heard audiophools claim that the needle dragging across the surface of the record is enough to cause micro speed variations. :rolleyes: Seriously, Audiophools need to get a life.

My Thorens TD 125, has high frequency AC servo control like the Studer/Revox turntables. That is all fine, however this adds complexity which can and does fail. I bought mine cheap non working.

Now the rage is DC servo motors. This is less complex than AC square wave generator servo, and the drive is totally smooth. The only advantage I suppose, is that it allows for lighter platters.
I like the simple idea of inertia caused by a rotating mass as an effective form of speed control.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
I'm of the opinion that you should never add complexity without a good reason.
Absolutely agreed! The simple solution that meets the demands is the BEST solution every time!
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
Thanks guys for all the invaluable information. I now have a more definitive reason to purchase a simple table that is less likely to have any of these so called ridiculous "golden ears" problems.
So speaking of lighter platters, should I forego the acrylic platter and have money better spent elsewhere?

I sold my Sota Sapphire 111 for the reasons Mark mentions, complexity, but I have to say even with the platter weight of (I think) 18 pounds the AC motor direct to grid had no problem getting up to speed and keeping it that way. I just needed to many upgrades to get it up to spec. This table weighed 48 Lbs. I practically gave it away, dust cover, Sota reflex clamp and AT Mla 440 cart. (new), those three items are worth $700+ and I sold everything for $700.

At least now I will have a table that I can move when I feel like it, and I really like the fire engine red Project. So what do you think, Needle Doctor has a sale on the Project Debut Carbon DC for $399 delivered, again I ask if there's any advantage with the acrylic platter over the stock one?

Thanks again Mark for the well explained and easy to understand differences with tables.

Jeffrey
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm another one who's baffled by people saying they can hear "micro speed variations" from the friction of the needle on the groove. Unless these people can identify the errors without measuring, it doesn't matter. Wow and flutter specs on belt drive tables have never been as low as direct drive, but it's good enough that it doesn't call attention to the variations. As often as I see people go to guitar shops to have their instrument tuned and as badly out of tune as I hear people play and sing, I just don't believe they hear what they say they do. Emmylou Harris is a good example- her intonation used to be OK, but I can't listen to her recent stuff and I would like to test these bozos for their ability.

I don't know how much the acrylic platter will improve the sound, although its weight may make the speed more stable by averaging the fluctuations better than a lightweight version. As long as the platter doesn't ring like a bell or contribute to excessive static buildup, it should be fine in whatever material.

WRT drive motors 'cogging', I saw a lot of inexpensive turntables with extremely light cast aluminum platters in the '70s and '80s that performed well enough- I seriously doubt motor technology has slipped so far that they can no longer make an AC motor that stays at the correct speed, as long as it's synchronous. The Quartz-locked speed control is nice, but the magnetic coating on the bottom of the platter can lose its strength, if located near a strong enough field and I have also seen the pickup head fail, which is a problem if the problem became common or if the table wasn't produced in large quantities.

As far as complexity, the comment “Everything should be as simple as it can be, but not simpler” applies to turntables very well. As much as I like my turntable, its complexity is causing some problems that need to be addressed- if they continue and/or become more severs, it will just be a paper weight.

At the moment, I'm looking at older Thorens tables, but finding myself incredibly annoyed by seeing so many that were dismantled, just so the seller can make a few more dollars by selling it as parts, rather than a complete item that may, or may not work properly. Idiots!

I'm surprised that the "experts" haven't debated the filament used for the anti-skate weight to the degree of the other inconsequential things. At some point, I expect someone to come out and say that Spider Wire fishing line is the best, only to be bested by someone who says that actual spider silk is better for sound, but only if it comes from the correct specie.

Oh, look! I found this on the Needle Doctor site- I hope it works as well as intended.

http://www.needledoctor.com/MIT-Z-Duplex-20A-Super-In-wall-Power-Conditioner_2
 
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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Thanks guys for all the invaluable information. I now have a more definitive reason to purchase a simple table that is less likely to have any of these so called ridiculous "golden ears" problems.
So speaking of lighter platters, should I forego the acrylic platter and have money better spent elsewhere?

I sold my Sota Sapphire 111 for the reasons Mark mentions, complexity, but I have to say even with the platter weight of (I think) 18 pounds the AC motor direct to grid had no problem getting up to speed and keeping it that way. I just needed to many upgrades to get it up to spec. This table weighed 48 Lbs. I practically gave it away, dust cover, Sota reflex clamp and AT Mla 440 cart. (new), those three items are worth $700+ and I sold everything for $700.

At least now I will have a table that I can move when I feel like it, and I really like the fire engine red Project. So what do you think, Needle Doctor has a sale on the Project Debut Carbon DC for $399 delivered, again I ask if there's any advantage with the acrylic platter over the stock one?

Thanks again Mark for the well explained and easy to understand differences with tables.

Jeffrey
You could have kept the cartridge, but I'm not sure it would have been an easy sell without one.

Doesn't anyone nearby sell this turntable? Why pay for shipping when it won't help the sound?
 
Last edited:
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I like the simple idea of inertia caused by a rotating mass as an effective form of speed control.
Seems to work OK for internal combustion engines.

I read that Les Paul built an LP cutting lathe, using the flywheel from a Cadillac.
 
ahblaza

ahblaza

Audioholic Field Marshall
You could have kept the cartridge, but I'm not sure it would have been an easy sell without one.

Doesn't anyone nearby sell this turntable? Why pay for shipping when it won't help the sound?

I'm getting it at the Needle Doctor for $50 less than anyone else sells it for, they have a sale going on with the Projects, found it in Sound and Vision mag. $399 with free shipping. I really like the looks of the acrylic platter but that is probably the only advantage, the looks........ Is the cork mat OK?

I'll make sure to order that in wall power conditioner for $235, can't live without it LOL!!!!!
Thanks HF
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
I'm getting it at the Needle Doctor for $50 less than anyone else sells it for, they have a sale going on with the Projects, found it in Sound and Vision mag. $399 with free shipping. I really like the looks of the acrylic platter but that is probably the only advantage, the looks........ Is the cork mat OK?

I'll make sure to order that in wall power conditioner for $235, can't live without it LOL!!!!!
Thanks HF
Did you ask any local dealers if they would match the price? They should be able to and you would be helping a local dealer.
 
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