Denon X4000 bum out of the box

[Acoustat]

I finally got the assistant to operate with some setting tweaking with the Denon
tech support team on the tele. So now I can see a signal after changing the video settings.
Sorry, forget what I changed there, but we're good on that now.

Still, was no sound. Unfamiliar with the volume control, I had it on 5-10 level.
He said I wouldn't get any sound till about 20 or so, so do crank it up…
ok, at 40 I started to hear sound beginning to emit from my mains
which are fed with the pre out L and R to amp input (RCA jacks only, not an issue)
The amp is a Carver TFM-45, 500w/ch @ 0db at 4ohms and 1,000 w/ch peak,
yet is sounds very attenuated for some unknown reason. Sounds perfect with my NAD preamp

The amp has no level controls on it, or filters of any sort, 2 In, 4 out and a fuse, have fun

So before you play the video I'm uploading to youtube right now, it was shot yesterday, prior to tech support.
I have overcome issues I was getting at in this video, but I am hoping
somebody, may see something that strikes a note, and can think of something Denon forgot maybe.

One thing I am really disappointed with this AVR, is there are no mains out I can use to send through my Denon DE-70 Eq.
They said some of their older AVRs could operate it, but not this one. I've never had so many in/outs and flexibility as
this AVR, but it can't allow an external Eq? :crap:
vid to follow when it's up.

 

[Acoustat]

Denon said I needed to set up an exchange for a new receiver with Amazon.
I'm afraid that there may be an issue not thought of by the tech support
and all the AVRs in the world would experience the same issue.
Is there anything that would cause an attenuation of the audio pre-out
or is there a way it should be boosted from within the settings?

 

[Acoustat]

Went into the setup/speakers/manual setup/levels/test tone start
and added +12db to both fronts. Might have helped a tad, nothing to write home about.

The 2ch is grayed out, non selectable, which is all I'm using (2 ch set up) ATM with no sub or rears.
2ch might not be associated with the pre-outs I'm using though, rather the main outs on the AVR.
I'm sure Denon tech support would have knowledge of that. The guy I spoke with, really knew his
way around the model I have.


Oh, and BTW, I see the on board Graphic Eq in the menu on my AVR but it's non-selectable, grayed out.


EDIT:::::
Got the Denon Eq working with the AVR!!!
It was probably working before, but the volume was not up enough.
Still not enough punch, and subtle db increase, just better tailored sound.
Music channels on the satellite are so weak. The AVR is very hot.

Not sure why Denon tech guy thought the Eq wouldn't integrate

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wow. Sorry to hear about the defective X4000.

The heating issue sure sounds like a defect since I've heard the X4000 operates pretty cool.

Did you ever run Audyssey to see what happens?

 

[Acoustat]

Wow. Sorry to hear about the defective X4000.

The heating issue sure sounds like a defect since I've heard the X4000 operates pretty cool.

Did you ever run Audyssey to see what happens?

Ah, good to hear, because before I even knew I should raise the volume ctrl above 10
the thing was running pretty warm, hot I thought. Then last night we watched
some regular programming series, and normal conversation levels and it was fairly hot pretty quick.

No Audyssey ran, as I only have 2 ch stereo, and I don't want a program telling my mains anything…do I?
I'm hoping to use the Audyssey for the rears, and the Audyssey Sub Eq for the sub(s) when these speakers are purchased.

TLS had warned me the market was awash with such filth.

 

[GIEGAR]

Hi Acoustat

You've gone straight to a more complicated setup. As a troubleshooting exercise, I suggest you take the Carver out of the chain and run the speakers straight off the Denon. See what the result is. Also, before you do this, dial those level trims back from +12dB to 0dB - you have them maxed out and it's unnecessary.

Then, please do run the Audyssey setup. Audyssey is about more than its EQ and surround speakers. It will set up distances/delays, set level trims based on a common reference and "tell" the AVR the number of speakers hooked up. Audyssey's EQ is perfectly legitimate for straight 2 channel. If you don't like it, switch off the EQ in the audio settings or select a Direct listening mode, but it's not a reason to skip the setup. Just do a quick 3 point Audyssey run for a start: 1st at the main listening position then 2nd and 3rd points 2' to the left and right.

 

[M Code]

Regarding volume level settings..
Keep in mind its total gain structure..
If U max out the channel trim levels by +12dB, then the maximum master volume level will be decreased by 12dB.

Just my $0.02..

 

[Acoustat]

Hi Acoustat

You've gone straight to a more complicated setup. As a troubleshooting exercise, I suggest you take the Carver out of the chain and run the speakers straight off the Denon. See what the result is. Also, before you do this, dial those level trims back from +12dB to 0dB - you have them maxed out and it's unnecessary.

Then, please do run the Audyssey setup. Audyssey is about more than its EQ and surround speakers. It will set up distances/delays, set level trims based on a common reference and "tell" the AVR the number of speakers hooked up. Audyssey's EQ is perfectly legitimate for straight 2 channel. If you don't like it, switch off the EQ in the audio settings or select a Direct listening mode, but it's not a reason to skip the setup. Just do a quick 3 point Audyssey run for a start: 1st at the main listening position then 2nd and 3rd points 2' to the left and right.

Hey Gieger
I actually did run the Audyssey32. Will watch some programming and a movie this evening, but so far
the voices are more muffled, which I'm sure I could attack with the external Eq I'm using.

As far as the speakers are concerned, I fear the Denon is not equipped to handle the minimum requirement
of 100W/ch at 4 ohms minimum just to get them off the ground. That is a minimum requirement of the amp
for the Acoustat Spectra 33's I have.

This is from the following Denon specs link...

THD figures are power amp stage values. 125 W + 125 W
(8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.05 %) 165 W + 165 W
(6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz, THD 0.7%)

http://assets.denon.com/DocumentMaster/us/Specification Sheet - English_AVR-X4000.pdf
Again, great input, as I originally stated, all the AVRs in the world may have the same issue.

Personally, I would guess that the mV on the pre out is considerably a lower value than my NAD 1700 preamp.
I know the Denon preamp input sensitivity is 200 mV / 47 kΩ/kohms
no clue what the pre out value is on either component.

 

[Acoustat]

Regarding volume level settings..
Keep in mind its total gain structure..
If U max out the channel trim levels by +12dB, then the maximum master volume level will be decreased by 12dB.

Just my $0.02..

I will scoot off to the setup pronto and change that back to 0db
duly notice though, this +db was done while on the tele with
Denon, and it did not help nor hinder that we could tell.
I will reset that, and appreciate the helps

 

[Acoustat]

Giegar and M Code, after running Audyssey it changed these values on levels to...
L + 6.0db
R +4.5db

Ran a scene on the DVR/pause/back up/pause

changed the values to 0db

play=less volume not changing the volume at all (45 level on the AVR)
and is actually at a point, I would turn it up, just to understand conversation.

Repeated changing the levels back to the Audyssey set values stated above
and the sound level was increased, again, not changing the volume control at all.
Minor differences, but plainly noticeable.

 

[Acoustat]

How about this!!!!

Feed the Denon pre out
into my NAD line in
and run the system as before with no issue like this.

If this is doable, it will be with the replacement AVR.

 

[GIEGAR]

Hey Gieger
I actually did run the Audyssey32. Will watch some programming and a movie this evening, but so far
the voices are more muffled, which I'm sure I could attack with the external Eq I'm using.

External EQ would be last thing I'd do. First, check that the setup hasn't set any silly defaults... eg. Try Dynamic EQ = ON; Dynamic Vol = OFF.

Actually, I wouldn't recommend external EQ full stop. It's really been rendered surplus to requirements by Audyssey MultEQ and/or the manual EQ (if you prefer) available on the X4000. However, if you just enjoy the tweaking around with it, that's your prerogative.

As far as the speakers are concerned, I fear the Denon is not equipped to handle the minimum requirement
of 100W/ch at 4 ohms minimum just to get them off the ground. That is a minimum requirement of the amp
for the Acoustat Spectra 33's I have.

This is from the following Denon specs link...

http://assets.denon.com/DocumentMaster/us/Specification Sheet - English_AVR-X4000.pdf
Again, great input, as I originally stated, all the AVRs in the world may have the same issue.

The Denon will be fine on the Acoustats as long as you don't get too excited and go berko with the volume knob. I'm not suggesting this as a permanent solution, just to eliminate the Carver and the hook-up as a possible source of the problem.

Personally, I would guess that the mV on the pre out is considerably a lower value than my NAD 1700 preamp.
I know the Denon preamp input sensitivity is 200 mV / 47 kΩ/kohms
no clue what the pre out value is on either component.

Holy snapping duck sh!t! The NAD 1700 can put out 10V at the pre outs! (NAD 1700 Manual - Stereo Preamplifier / Tuner | HiFi Engine)

The Carver TFM-45 has an input sensitivity of 1.7V, which means that a 1.7V input drives it to full rated power. (Carver TFM-45 Manual - Magnetic Field Power Amplifier | HiFi Engine)

From p255 of the X4000 manual:

View attachment 14044

I'm not 100% sure of this, but the way I read it is that via an analog signal path, the rated output is 1.2V. Via a digital signal path, the rated output at the DAC is 2.0V. Note, that these are rated outputs; maximum outputs will be considerably higher (perhaps around 5V, judging by similar sized Onkyo's). So, I surmise that the X4000 should have no problem driving the Carver to full rated power either.

 

[GIEGAR]

Giegar and M Code, after running Audyssey it changed these values on levels to...
L + 6.0db
R +4.5db

Ran a scene on the DVR/pause/back up/pause

changed the values to 0db

play=less volume not changing the volume at all (45 level on the AVR)
and is actually at a point, I would turn it up, just to understand conversation.

Repeated changing the levels back to the Audyssey set values stated above
and the sound level was increased, again, not changing the volume control at all.
Minor differences, but plainly noticeable.

Leave the trims at what Audyssey determined, they will be correct. I gave the advice to turn them back to 0dB before I knew you'd run Audyssey.

Also, go in and change the X4000's volume display to "Relative". This will display it as -XdB relative to reference and we'll all have an idea of how loud your hearing things. [If you're hooked up with HDMI CEC, the LG's display will still show "Absolute" volume (usually 0 - 100).]

What you've experienced changing the trim levels back and forward makes sense. M Code's advice has me and I'll think about that some more before responding.

 

[Acoustat]

External EQ would be last thing I'd do. First, check that the setup hasn't set any silly defaults... eg. Try Dynamic EQ = ON; Dynamic Vol = OFF.

Actually, I wouldn't recommend external EQ full stop. It's really been rendered surplus to requirements by Audyssey MultEQ and/or the manual EQ (if you prefer) available on the X4000. However, if you just enjoy the tweaking around with it, that's your prerogative.


The Denon will be fine on the Acoustats as long as you don't get too excited and go berko with the volume knob. I'm not suggesting this as a permanent solution, just to eliminate the Carver and the hook-up as a possible source of the problem.


Holy snapping duck sh!t! The NAD 1700 can put out 10V at the pre outs! (NAD 1700 Manual - Stereo Preamplifier / Tuner | HiFi Engine)

The Carver TFM-45 has an input sensitivity of 1.7V, which means that a 1.7V input drives it to full rated power. (Carver TFM-45 Manual - Magnetic Field Power Amplifier | HiFi Engine)

From p255 of the X4000 manual:

View attachment 14044

I'm not 100% sure of this, but the way I read it is that via an analog signal path, the rated output is 1.2V. Via a digital signal path, the rated output at the DAC is 2.0V. Note, that these are rated outputs; maximum outputs will be considerably higher (perhaps around 5V, judging by similar sized Onkyo's). So, I surmise that the X4000 should have no problem driving the Carver to full rated power either.

HiFi engine is a nice tool. You've put some time into this.
I cannot access your Denon link, but I have the CD ROM.

I'll work on your suggestions this weekend, (another full day tomorrow at work)

I really need to understand these > Input sensitivity: 0.1mV (MC), 1.4mV (MM), 80mV (line) <(NAD input specs)
to make sure I don't hook volts into a mV input should I try the NAD back in line, from the D X4000 output.

I have not been able to access the onboard Eq of the D X4000, it's grayed out and haven't read it in the owners manual yet.
I prefer a paper book than a CD ROM, in hand, in front of my equipment, rather than bouncing back n forth across the house
but Denon is going "green".

Try Dynamic EQ = ON; Dynamic Vol = OFF

.
Ok, I'll look for those settings tomorrow. You should just stop in after work, cheers mate!

 

[Acoustat]

also the onboard Eq is not as comprehensive as the Denon Eq.
Another + with the Denon DE-70, is you can switch to Left
and the L channel is played in both speakers
Switch the Right
and both speakers play the R channel and you can fiddle with fixing
channel specific tones if desired. It covers a more wide range of frequencies than the AVR by a long shot.
AVR bottoms out at 63Hz if I remember correctly. I know, Bass Mgt, but I'm not that far into the game yet.
Heck, I haven't found a way to bypass the Audyssey yet. New car smell still, ya know?

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi Acoustat

You've gone straight to a more complicated setup. As a troubleshooting exercise, I suggest you take the Carver out of the chain and run the speakers straight off the Denon. See what the result is. Also, before you do this, dial those level trims back from +12dB to 0dB - you have them maxed out and it's unnecessary.

Then, please do run the Audyssey setup. Audyssey is about more than its EQ and surround speakers. It will set up distances/delays, set level trims based on a common reference and "tell" the AVR the number of speakers hooked up. Audyssey's EQ is perfectly legitimate for straight 2 channel. If you don't like it, switch off the EQ in the audio settings or select a Direct listening mode, but it's not a reason to skip the setup. Just do a quick 3 point Audyssey run for a start: 1st at the main listening position then 2nd and 3rd points 2' to the left and right.

Do not tell him to do that. Those Acoustats will likely blow any receiver.

It takes a very robust unconditionally stable amp to drive those.

 

[TLS Guy]

External EQ would be last thing I'd do. First, check that the setup hasn't set any silly defaults... eg. Try Dynamic EQ = ON; Dynamic Vol = OFF.

Actually, I wouldn't recommend external EQ full stop. It's really been rendered surplus to requirements by Audyssey MultEQ and/or the manual EQ (if you prefer) available on the X4000. However, if you just enjoy the tweaking around with it, that's your prerogative.


The Denon will be fine on the Acoustats as long as you don't get too excited and go berko with the volume knob. I'm not suggesting this as a permanent solution, just to eliminate the Carver and the hook-up as a possible source of the problem.


Holy snapping duck sh!t! The NAD 1700 can put out 10V at the pre outs! (NAD 1700 Manual - Stereo Preamplifier / Tuner | HiFi Engine)

The Carver TFM-45 has an input sensitivity of 1.7V, which means that a 1.7V input drives it to full rated power. (Carver TFM-45 Manual - Magnetic Field Power Amplifier | HiFi Engine)

From p255 of the X4000 manual:

View attachment 14044

I'm not 100% sure of this, but the way I read it is that via an analog signal path, the rated output is 1.2V. Via a digital signal path, the rated output at the DAC is 2.0V. Note, that these are rated outputs; maximum outputs will be considerably higher (perhaps around 5V, judging by similar sized Onkyo's). So, I surmise that the X4000 should have no problem driving the Carver to full rated power either.

Unfortunately there is not standard definition of line level. 1.7 volts for max output is on the high side. The line out of a receiver is usually 1 volt.

However I have never tested the head room of a pre out of a receiver. I have tested the headroom of my Marantz pre/pro outputs and there is a head room of 14 volts before clipping which is adequate.

As you all know I basically mistrust and dislike receivers. So we might have an issue here. Headroom is never specified these days, and almost never measured in review. Peter Walker taught me that the headroom of input and outputs is in fact just about the most important spec on a piece of audio equipment.

If the OP can not get enough output from the pre outs to drive the Carver then an extra gain stage will have to be employed or he needs to send back the receiver and get a pre/pro instead. The latter would probably be the best solution.

One of the many problems with receivers is that they are built to a price and corners are cut. I know of no receiver that would meet my demands and specifications.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I would not mess with any manual EQ (internal or external) unless I could measure the speaker's FR in the room.

I would just use the Denon AVR by itself first without hooking up any external amp. Just keep the volume very low at first. Then slowly increase the volume of the Denon.

The part about the Denon heating up like that tells me that it is probably defective to begin with.

Defective pre-pros also exist just like defective AVR.

Many of us have used AVRs as pre-pros for years without any kind of issues.

 

[M Code]

Unfortunately there is not standard definition of line level. 1.7 volts for max output is on the high side. The line out of a receiver is usually 1 volt.

However I have never tested the head room of a pre out of a receiver. I have tested the headroom of my Marantz pre/pro outputs and there is a head room of 14 volts before clipping which is adequate.

As you all know I basically mistrust and dislike receivers. So we might have an issue here. Headroom is never specified these days, and almost never measured in review. Peter Walker taught me that the headroom of input and outputs is in fact just about the most important spec on a piece of audio equipment.

If the OP can not get enough output from the pre outs to drive the Carver then an extra gain stage will have to be employed or he needs to send back the receiver and get a pre/pro instead. The latter would probably be the best solution.

One of the many problems with receivers is that they are built to a price and corners are cut. I know of no receiver that would meet my demands and specifications.

To better understand the setup...
One needs to know what the impedance spec is for the pre-out levels...
The lower the impedance, the more capable the preamp is able to drive various cable length runs...
Also the brand and quality of the interconnect cable can affect its frequency response, the higher its capacitance the more roll-off likely in the high end freqeuncy response..

Just my $0.02...

 

[Acoustat]

To better understand the setup...
One needs to know what the impedance spec is for the pre-out levels…

These are the only impedance spec I could find from Denon
125 W + 125 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz - 20 kHz, THD 0.05 %)
165 W + 165 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz, THD 0.7%)
Not listing the 4 ohms I need, is reason to give pause.

The lower the impedance, the more capable the preamp is able to drive various cable length runs...

I have 25' on each channel.

Also the brand and quality of the interconnect cable can affect its frequency response, the higher its capacitance the more roll-off likely in the high end freqeuncy response..

I'm using the best Monster Cable I could buy at that time. It is very flexible and soft with a bone colored sheath, it has gold banana plugs
but I do not know any specs on the cable itself, interconnects are listed below
[/QUOTE]

The replacement AVR should be here Mon or Tues. I will get back to you guys and let you know the outcome.

In the meantime, is there a good A/V pre amp that offers 4K upscaling and room set up you can think of?
Bass mgt should be considered important, and what should I be looking for in terms of line out volts?
My NAD 1700 is on the NORMAL output to amp, not the HIGH output, so the 10V max out is not usable with my
current configuration. The rest of my Monster cables I'm using on my NAD and other peripherals are directional
Blue coloured ones if that means anything at all. I do have a bad HDMI cable on my BluRay player I bought this year.
It's Monster brand too but not directional.