What interests you?

[AcuDefTechGuy]

This is just a question now. How low do your top modules go? Are you using top modules and subs? I have modular towers too, so I am just wondering how you're gonna set your system up. Does your system come with tops-bottoms+subs, or just with tops and subs??

The SX-T1 (top) has an F3 of 50Hz, sensitivity 92dB/2.83v/m.

The SX-T2 is top + bottom. The bottom is the sub.

The SX-T2 = SX-T1 top + SX-1010 sub.

So I would set up the top as Small, XO 80Hz, LFE to all 5 SX-1010 subs.

 

[Sheep]

Another subwoofer that catches my attention is the Martin Logan Dynamo subs, the higher power ones (10 and 12 inch, sealed units). Look like they're well built and a nice size.

SheepStar

 

[rojo]

I came across this last night: Acoustic Audio HD-SUB12-MAPLE, which is supposedly a 12" ported sub with a 400W RMS amp and an anechoic F3 of 22Hz. It even has a non-black finish (albeit with Big Lots looking veneer) and a pretty typical 3/4" MDF construction. It's interesting enough to compete with the Dayton 15" I usually recommend for people looking for the cheapest sub they can get away with.

There's some positivity about the subs here and here (with nice looking pics), so maybe they are the real deal.

 

[3db]

^note that the Triax will punish the Sub2 for a fraction of the price. The drivers account for 150lbs of the subs weight.

Punish price wise or performance wise? I'm very skeptical on performance punishment based on what I see here.. Only a custom built sub bests this sub at 10Hz.


Data-Bass

System Name	Drivers	10Hz	12.5Hz	16Hz	20Hz	25Hz	31.5Hz	40Hz	50Hz	63Hz	80Hz	100Hz	125Hz
Paradigm, Signature Sub 2	6x 10	94.7	98.2	102.6	106.4	109.9	113.2	116.9	120.2	122.5	123	122.1	120.3

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[Tom V.]

Punish price wise or performance wise? I'm very skeptical on performance punishment based on what I see here.. Only a custom built sub bests this sub at 10Hz.


Data-Bass

System Name	Drivers	10Hz	12.5Hz	16Hz	20Hz	25Hz	31.5Hz	40Hz	50Hz	63Hz	80Hz	100Hz	125Hz
Paradigm, Signature Sub 2	6x 10	94.7	98.2	102.6	106.4	109.9	113.2	116.9	120.2	122.5	123	122.1	120.3

<tbody>
</tbody>

Once you get to this level of performance improvements become more and more incremental. The Triax does offer a bit more output across the board but the Sub 2 has more inputs, the EQ kit, 12v trigger, etc. So its probably 6 of one, half a dozen of another as each potential customer will need to figure out their purchase priorities. BTW, iirc the 6 10s in the sub 2 weigh a combined 180 pounds.. One of the very few commercial woofs that out "sumo" the Triax in that regard I'm thinking!

Tom V.
Power Sound Audio

 

[rollinrocker]

sub2 is a very cool sub to drool over...but reality slaps back so I'd go with a Triax


and reading this thread reminded me...I miss the mulester

 

[JohnnieB]

Game changer! Not sure if you could even categorize this as a sub.

Eminent Technology: home

No way in HELL, wait that's not a swear word is it? No way in heck cold I afford this but, man, would I love to hear or feel it. They claim 115db between 1 and 20 hz.

Awesome.

Has anyone ever even heard of this thing?

 

[fuzz092888]

Yup rotary sub has been around for awhile.

Game changer! Not sure if you could even categorize this as a sub.

Eminent Technology: home

No way in HELL, wait that's not a swear word is it? No way in heck cold I afford this but, man, would I love to hear or feel it. They claim 115db between 1 and 20 hz.

Awesome.

Has anyone ever even heard of this thing?

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Game changer! Not sure if you could even categorize this as a sub.

Eminent Technology: home

No way in HELL, wait that's not a swear word is it? No way in heck cold I afford this but, man, would I love to hear or feel it. They claim 115db between 1 and 20 hz.

Awesome.

Has anyone ever even heard of this thing?

Yup rotary sub has been around for awhile.

Rotary sounds sooo boring !

It's the SubZero Sub !!! Arrr !!

 

[JohnnieB]

How does this rotary thing work? I get that the fan blades change pitch, but the voice coil is not attached to the cone? Is there a port in the box so the fan acts upon the cone?

It might sound boring, but I'll bet the effect on movie night wouldn't be.

Would the triax act like a dual or triple sub, in that if corner loaded, two drivers would be angled to a separate wall with one facing the room? I wonder, because if I were looking at two $1500 subs anyway, why not get the triax and have that awesome low bass? It would kill my budget for any other sub, and probably a few other things for a while. Ramen noodles anyone? Would it give you the benefits of a dual sub setup?

 

[fuzz092888]

How does this rotary thing work? I get that the fan blades change pitch, but the voice coil is not attached to the cone? Is there a port in the box so the fan acts upon the cone?

It might sound boring, but I'll bet the effect on movie night wouldn't be.

Would the triax act like a dual or triple sub, in that if corner loaded, two drivers would be angled to a separate wall with one facing the room? I wonder, because if I were looking at two $1500 subs anyway, why not get the triax and have that awesome low bass? It would kill my budget for any other sub, and probably a few other things for a while. Ramen noodles anyone? Would it give you the benefits of a dual sub setup?

http://www.rotarywoofer.com/howitworks.htm

You have to have a basement, side room, or attic in order to build the necessary enclosure for this thing.

No one said it was boring, they're super cool, they're just not new They're used by this one theater (4 or 6 of them I think) to accurately recreate Niagara Falls. They're also used by NASA if my memory serves, for reproducing the Saturn rocket's takeoff. Besides expense the downsides are that they require the extra space and are only good up to about 30hz or so. So you'll still needs conventional subs that are good into the 20's and up to about 150hz to supplement one of these.

Instead of thinking of it as the Triax acting like two or three subs in that corner, think about it more like it acting as one sub with a giant cone. Adding more drivers is about increasing cone area to increase SPL and the argument could be made that using smaller drivers also helps it maintain good transient response and decay over larger drivers while theoretically keeping distortion low by having many smaller drivers moving less distance to reproduce an SPL rather than one large cone moving a lot or pretty far to reproduce that same SPL. IMO, I'd rather have a couple 18's over the 3 15's, but I'm biased towards the two DO's I built.

 

[Sheep]

sub2 is a very cool sub to drool over...but reality slaps back so I'd go with a Triax


and reading this thread reminded me...I miss the mulester

Holy crap you're still around?! I miss Mule too. Does he still post anywhere?


Back on topic, I might be (will be, don't know when) buying a Creative Sound Solutions SDX-10 (or SXD-10, can't remember) and building a ported box for it. I have had 2 - 12 inch long 2inch ports (Precision Ports, full flared) at home for years not being used. 2.4 cu ft enclosure models very well for this driver and those ports. Hopefully get it done sometime in the summer.

SheepStar

 

[Sheep]

http://www.rotarywoofer.com/howitworks.htm

You have to have a basement, side room, or attic in order to build the necessary enclosure for this thing.

No one said it was boring, they're super cool, they're just not new They're used by this one theater (4 or 6 of them I think) to accurately recreate Niagara Falls. They're also used by NASA if my memory serves, for reproducing the Saturn rocket's takeoff. Besides expense the downsides are that they require the extra space and are only good up to about 30hz or so. So you'll still needs conventional subs that are good into the 20's and up to about 150hz to supplement one of these.

Instead of thinking of it as the Triax acting like two or three subs in that corner, think about it more like it acting as one sub with a giant cone. Adding more drivers is about increasing cone area to increase SPL and the argument could be made that using smaller drivers also helps it maintain good transient response and decay over larger drivers while theoretically keeping distortion low by having many smaller drivers moving less distance to reproduce an SPL rather than one large cone moving a lot or pretty far to reproduce that same SPL. IMO, I'd rather have a couple 18's over the 3 15's, but I'm biased towards the two DO's I built.

I thought the argument for larger cones being worse for transients was kinda tossed out with the bath water? There is many 15 and 18 inch drivers with near perfect performance on the market (Velodyne Servo Controlled subwoofers have been doing it for YEARS, albeit with some assistance).

SheepStar

 

[fuzz092888]

Back on topic, I might be (will be, don't know when) buying a Creative Sound Solutions SDX-10 (or SXD-10, can't remember) and building a ported box for it. I have had 2 - 12 inch long 2inch ports (Precision Ports, full flared) at home for years not being used. 2.4 cu ft enclosure models very well for this driver and those ports. Hopefully get it done sometime in the summer.

SDX-10 is a great little sub. I went sealed with mine because of the small form factor I could get with it and I love how it performs. I'd like to add another for a 2.2 setup with them. Possibly even running them in stereo under each bookshelf.

 

[fuzz092888]

I thought the argument for larger cones being worse for transients was kinda tossed out with the bath water? There is many 15 and 18 inch drivers with near perfect performance on the market (Velodyne Servo Controlled subwoofers have been doing it for YEARS, albeit with some assistance).

SheepStar

It's can still be true, especially depending on price points and what other technology you're adding in, like servo control. I think I mentioned that it hasn't been my experience that my 18's can't keep up with smaller drivers, plus I mentioned that it's a theoretical argument, although I should've mentioned that it's something a company would most likely use in their literature, but isn't necessarily true.

 

[JohnnieB]

Fuzz: BoredSys didn't say it "was" boring, neither did I, he stated it "sounds" boring. After reading the "how it works" section for the third time, I read it once before I posted the question, the part I still don't quite have a grasp on is the signal. I assume the binding posts are for input, would this be correct? The sound is not amplified through an amp, the blade pitch increases, moving more air, increasing amplitude, sound right? Now they state the blades remain at a constant speed, so if blade pitch increases amplitude, what changes in order to achieve the desired freq? Is it the pitch as well?

I have always said that smaller drivers hit harder and provide cleaner bass, but can't go as low (single driver vs. single driver) as a large sub. Not being a subwoofer guru, that is probably skewed. Just my experience. I see your point on acting as one driver.

I've heard a couple car subs that go so low you can't hear the bass, but it rattles windows for blocks. It's that kind of ultra low bass I'm looking for. Butt kickers are not an option, they seem like cheap theatrics to me. If you've ever been driving with a child in the back seat whose feet can reach your seat, that's how I look at the butt kickers. JMO.

The direction I would like to go, is having a couple smaller subs for 2 channel listening, that can be blended in to compliment my towers. Then add a third possibly much larger sub for really going low on movie night. Now Paradigm got to 7hz with multiple, here meaning six, drivers. I think $6000 is a little out of my price range. Power sound used 3 15s and is half the price. 2 10's or 12's for music at around $1600 for the pair seems reasonable. That leaves me $1400 for a single sub to go really low. Now integrating all of this and getting it to sound right, for me, might be a trick. I've looked around a little at DIY, which I'm not afraid to do, just not sure which drivers and design I should go with to achieve the afformentioned result. Is there a better solution to achieving what I'm after?

 

[fuzz092888]

Fuzz: BoredSys didn't say it "was" boring, neither did I, he stated it "sounds" boring. After reading the "how it works" section for the third time, I read it once before I posted the question, the part I still don't quite have a grasp on is the signal. I assume the binding posts are for input, would this be correct?

The binding posts are for input, although I believe they connect to the fan controller and the sub out goes to the fan controller, although I could be mistaken.

The sound is not amplified through an amp, the blade pitch increases, moving more air, increasing amplitude, sound right?

Correct.

Now they state the blades remain at a constant speed, so if blade pitch increases amplitude, what changes in order to achieve the desired freq? Is it the pitch as well?

The blade pitch does not remain constant. The pitch of the blades waves back and forth to create the peaks and troughs of the sine wave of whatever frequency is being reproduced (at least if I've understood what I've read).

I have always said that smaller drivers hit harder and provide cleaner bass, but can't go as low (single driver vs. single driver) as a large sub. Not being a subwoofer guru, that is probably skewed. Just my experience. I see your point on acting as one driver.

In my experience that couldn't be further from the truth when you are using high quality drivers. I'll put my LMS Ultras up against any small driver you can find. Any person who picks the smaller driver over a larger driver of similar or better quality after hearing them in the same room in the same spot is most likely just hearing the increased decay time of the larger driver because of the lower frequencies it is able to reproduce.

I've heard a couple car subs that go so low you can't hear the bass, but it rattles windows for blocks. It's that kind of ultra low bass I'm looking for. Butt kickers are not an option, they seem like cheap theatrics to me. If you've ever been driving with a child in the back seat whose feet can reach your seat, that's how I look at the butt kickers. JMO.

I might try buttkickers, but after having felt real infrasonic bass I doubt they'll give me that kind of sensation.

The direction I would like to go, is having a couple smaller subs for 2 channel listening, that can be blended in to compliment my towers. Then add a third possibly much larger sub for really going low on movie night.

I wouldn't. You're creating an overly complex system for no reason.

Now Paradigm got to 7hz with multiple, here meaning six, drivers. I think $6000 is a little out of my price range. Power sound used 3 15s and is half the price. 2 10's or 12's for music at around $1600 for the pair seems reasonable.

If you're going to go PSA, just stick with Triax and get multiples. Then treat your room to get those decay times down and I guarantee you'll never believe that you have multiple medium-large sized drivers with such refinement and musicality.

That leaves me $1400 for a single sub to go really low. Now integrating all of this and getting it to sound right, for me, might be a trick. I've looked around a little at DIY, which I'm not afraid to do, just not sure which drivers and design I should go with to achieve the afformentioned result.

Integration is going to be a huge pain, plus you'd have to calibrate the smaller subs as one sub so that when you turned on the bigger sub they would integrate with it. Now if you're talking about switching back and forth between the smaller subs and the larger sub, IMO that's a huge waste of money.

Is there a better solution to achieving what I'm after?

Big, high quality drivers/subwoofers. Then treat the heck out of your room to ensure the decay times are acceptable.

 

[JohnnieB]

Fuzz: multiple triax are out of my budget and more than I should think I need to spend for subs. 3000 for 2 subs, okay. Guess I'm back to Rythmik. Granted this will be a vast improvement over my current no sub status. I think equal performance or better can be had for less, but since it would be my first sub build, that may negate any savings. More contemplation is needed, still saving for the first sub so theres time.

I just looked up the Ultras at P.E. What type of enclosure do you have the Ultras in, dimensions? What amp are you pushing them with?

 

[fuzz092888]

Fuzz: multiple triax are out of my budget and more than I should think I need to spend for subs. 3000 for 2 subs, okay. Guess I'm back to Rythmik. Granted this will be a vast improvement over my current no sub status. I think equal performance or better can be had for less, but since it would be my first sub build, that may negate any savings. More contemplation is needed, still saving for the first sub so theres time.

I just looked up the Ultras at P.E. What type of enclosure do you have the Ultras in, dimensions? What amp are you pushing them with?

I only used the triax because that's the example you were using there are other perfectly viable options out there for less money.

Dual opposed. I have plans to someday go big ported with them, but that's years away. Peavey IPR2 then a Crest ProLite 5.0

If you want to go DIY but want a great cabinet, find a pro woodworker, get TLS, myself or someone else to model you up something or go with something already modeled and built and get the mach 5 UXL's. Awesome performance to rival anything you'll get commercially.

I'm in the car right now but there are a ton of options out there. Look at data bass if you haven't already for some ideas. If someone else hasn't already answered I'll add more when I get where I'm going.

 

[JohnnieB]

I feel like I hijacked this thread. My appologies to Sheep.