Seattle Campus Shootings

[MidnightSensi2]

Shotguns tend to require being reloaded often heh. Security guard had pepper spray and a lot of courage!

Debating gun control, games/tv/movie violence, misogyny and other possibly consequential, but not necessarily driving, factors - doesn't seem to be getting us any closer to prevention.

Also, it's not just an American problem - it's global on varying scales. Schools tend to be the target in Germany, for example.

 

[GO-NAD!]

I agree in as much that many of us don't feel safe.
I'd hate to have my constitutional rights to personal safety end, where another person feeling begin.

That Constitution is a pesky document.
Many don't like one part or another.
If some want to remove parts they don't like (not implying you do) I like to change a part too.
Mine would be an IQ test for voting. Stupid people voting doesn't help me feel safe.

Edit: In before the lock

Oh, I'm not in favour of infringing on your constitutional rights. After all, it's your constitution, not mine. It's just that being around lots of armed civilians in public would not give me the sense that public safety is being enhanced. It's not that I'm afraid of firearms - I grew up with rifles and shotguns (no handguns - no practical use for them where I grew up), followed by a military career. I'm completely comfortable around them. I would not be comfortable surrounded by a bunch of armed civies, whose motivation and judgement are completely unknown to me. I can't say for sure that the safety of public venues would be degraded by having more armed civilians around. But neither will I accept that, by default, safety will be enhanced.

OK, time for a segue. Speaking of "stupid people voting", have you seen this book?

Just How Stupid Are We?: Facing the Truth About the American Voter: Rick Shenkman: 9780465014934: Amazon.com: Books

Don't get the idea that I'm picking on American voters - the Canadian electorate is almost as idiotic.

 

[markw]

Mark, we could trade website links until the cows come home. Here's the very first link I got from a simple Google search:

Another shooter stopped by unarmed citizens - Field of View

So, the Gabrielle Giffords shooter was stopped by unarmed civilians. Neither of the websites you and I linked prove a thing. All I know, is that being in a public place with armed civilians around me, will not make me feel safe - at all.

You wouldn't like Texas at all.

Seriously, I don't mind having responsible citizens with guns around me. It's not the guns that scare me, it's the psychos and criminals that carry them that do.

In fact, around here so many criminals have guns, and have no problem getting them it seems, that knowing that some good samaritan with guns just might be willing and able to come to the rescue is a comforting thought.

But, unlike Texas, some states make it a crime to carry and use them in self defense, or in the defense of others. So, unless things change, only criminals have the advantage here.

Look at how well Chicago is doing and they have the strictist gun control in the nation.

 

[GO-NAD!]

You wouldn't like Texas at all.

Seriously, I don't mind having responsible citizens with guns around me. It's not the guns that scare me, it's the psychos and criminals that carry them that do.

In fact, around here so many criminals have guns, and have no problem getting them it seems, that knowing that some good samaritan with guns just might be willing and able to come to the rescue is a comforting thought.

But, unlike Texas, some states make it a crime to carry and use them in self defense, or in the defense of others. So, unless things change, only criminals have the advantage here.

Look at how well Chicago is doing and they have the strictist gun control in the nation.

You never know, if I lived in such an environment, I might get used to it and it wouldn't bother me.

 

[gene]

Can you find any other examples where an unarmed citizen stopped an armed criminal?

Obviously, this was ananomoly. Armed citizens can, and do, stop crimes much more often than unarmed citizens. See this link for an example. ...or this one for another.

Would you like me to post a few more links where an armed citizen stopped a crime?

Nothing wrong with people having a gun for hunting or self protection at home but it's getting more than ridiculous what people are packing these days and how ready they are to show it off and shoot. Mass shootings are becoming more common especially when you have less liability in states that have stand your ground law. Sorry you won't win any points with me here on the "need for more guns". The armed militia to overthrow our government argument is completely ridiculous in an age of predator drones, armored vehicles and nuclear weapons. Obama isn't coming to take anyone's guns despite the propaganda conservative talk radio likes to spread.

BTW I have a family history of service men in our military including my Dad who was on the front lines of Korea for 2 years during the Korean war. Most people that have served in our armed forces that I have met agree. It's just the chicken hawks that play too much Gears of War or swallow too much Rush that feel the need for more armament.

 

[Rickster71]

.... It's just that being around lots of armed civilians in public would not give me the sense that public safety is being enhanced. I would not be comfortable surrounded by a bunch of armed civies, whose motivation and judgement are completely unknown to me.

I'm not sure if in Canada you have volunteer fire departments and First-Aid, like we have in most towns.
(Large cities have paid)
We've relied on trained civilians for over 200 years when lives are at stake. Since we've done that, I think a small percentage of citizens that pass background and psych testing, and are trained and take continuing education to yearly qualify.(as is done with most/all professional licenses.

I'm in favor of all law abiding gun owners being highly trained.
Not the Hollywood version of a homeowner shooting randomly with their eyes closed

I can't say for sure that the safety of public venues would be degraded by having more armed civilians around. But neither will I accept that, by default, safety will be enhanced.

I understand.
But sounds like you've accepted (by default) that safety won't be enhanced, or at the least is left up to fate, that the bad guys will suddenly start following the rules... Or the police arriving in 3 to 10+ minutes.

 

[Rickster71]

Well we were having a nice, civil, NON-Political discussion for a while anyway.

 

[markw]

Not many people are "showing it off" just to show off and shooting simply to shoot, unless you are talking about the criminal element during the commission of a crime. If so, than I most certainly would like a decent law abiding citizen with a legal firearm (who knows how to use it and aim properly) nearby in the hopes that they might be able to counter the acrtions of the aforementioned criminal committing a crime, most likely with an unregistered, illegal weapon.

If politicians and rap stars can have hired guns protecting them, then I want the same rights they have. I'm just as important as they are. Just ask my grandkids.

And, please don't try to throw straw men into this argument. This discussion is about criminals and psychopaths, not overthrowing the country, and you know that.

Since we're now into flag waving, my father was in the Phillipines and on standby to invade Japan before he bomb ended that war and I was in the Air Force from 1968 to 1972. They had no trouble with either of us having guns.

 

[jinjuku]

What I can't understand is why these folks don't go shoot some drug dealers or crooked CEOs on Wall Street and are always targeting schools, movie theaters, etc.

Well drug dealers and big CEO's have something in common: They both play outside the law and have better security.

 

[lsiberian]

Most murders aren't done by strangers. Owning guns gives people the option in a conflict if they snap.

 

[Rickster71]

We should just make murder illegal... then we'll all be safe.

 

[markw]

We should just make murder illegal... then we'll all be safe.

That's not beyond the realm of possibility. At one time sneaking into this country was illegal. Now look at where that's going.

Besides, some people just need killin'

 

[herbu]

Kinda goes against the NRA logic that a gun abiding citizen will come to the rescue in such cases

Right. Much better to follow the advice from the University of Colorado... Pee yourself and vomit on your attacker.
College women told to urinate or vomit to deter a rapist - CNN.com

(Sorry, Gene... even you are not immune from my innate proclivity for sarcasm.)

There is no self defense advice, from anybody, for any situation, that will work all the time.
Some people like guns, like to learn about them, collect them, discuss them and shoot them. They are very comfortable with them and feel having one may prove an asset in some situations.
Some people don't like guns. They don't trust them, don't know if they can trust the training & judgement of people who have them, and don't feel comfortable around them.

There are countless examples of each perspective being right, and there is a better chance of Gene sending me a pair of new SA 8T Towers to celebrate my wit, than someone in one camp above changing the mind of someone in the other camp in an online forum.

So, Gene... what's it gonna be?

 

[GO-NAD!]

I'm not sure if in Canada you have volunteer fire departments and First-Aid, like we have in most towns.
(Large cities have paid)
We've relied on trained civilians for over 200 years when lives are at stake. Since we've done that, I think a small percentage of citizens that pass background and psych testing, and are trained and take continuing education to yearly qualify.(as is done with most/all professional licenses.

I'm in favor of all law abiding gun owners being highly trained.
Not the Hollywood version of a homeowner shooting randomly with their eyes closed

I understand.
But sounds like you've accepted (by default) that safety won't be enhanced, or at the least is left up to fate, that the bad guys will suddenly start following the rules... Or the police arriving in 3 to 10+ minutes.

Ahhhhh, we're talking about something different now. Armed, trained, auxiliary volunteer police - I'm down with that. It's random people who may possess the requisite permit(s) to go around armed in public, but might not necessarily have the appropriate training and judgment to act appropriately in a shooting incident, that I am leary of. And yes, we have volunteer first responders up here too.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Well we were having a nice, civil, NON-Political discussion for a while anyway.

It's still civil, isn't it? I'm certainly not going to get worked up over this.

 

[GO-NAD!]

We should just make murder illegal... then we'll all be safe.

Now you're talking crazy talk.

 

[Alex2507]

Like there was that other killer guy that shot only women ... A culture of hate toward women is probably not the cause, but, that's what the media wants to make of it because its a better selling story.

The men in the neighborhood were all like, "whew!"

 

[gene]

Not many people are "showing it off" just to show off and shooting simply to shoot, unless you are talking about the criminal element during the commission of a crime. If so, than I most certainly would like a decent law abiding citizen with a legal firearm (who knows how to use it and aim properly) nearby in the hopes that they might be able to counter the acrtions of the aforementioned criminal committing a crime, most likely with an unregistered, illegal weapon.

If politicians and rap stars can have hired guns protecting them, then I want the same rights they have. I'm just as important as they are. Just ask my grandkids.

And, please don't try to throw straw men into this argument. This discussion is about criminals and psychopaths, not overthrowing the country, and you know that.

Since we're now into flag waving, my father was in the Phillipines and on standby to invade Japan before he bomb ended that war and I was in the Air Force from 1968 to 1972. They had no trouble with either of us having guns.

Excuse me, I didn't realize that the NRA and most of the hosts of Fox news are considered psychopaths b/c those are the people claiming we need to be armed to the teeth in case we ever need to overthrow our Government. Thanks for clarifying that.

Personally I think anyone that carries around loaded guns in the public (except for law enforcement, militia, or hunters in the proper areas) are cowards but that's my opinion. IMO, It's simply ridiculous that people bring guns to public places like its no big deal. I don't need to sling a gun to feel protected but I also grew up learning how to defend myself and also do my best to stay out of situations that would require deadly force.

I've been to many foreign countries where citizens aren't armed but the militia are and I've never felt threatened. In fact, I feel safer walking the streets of Cartagena Colombia than I do walking in NYC.

A local theater I often take my family too recently had a shooting where a retired cop shot a man dead for getting into a yelling match over texting on a phone which escalated into the man throwing pop corn at him. In Florida that is considered "stand your ground" since popcorn can be considered a deadly weapon.

There have been so many cases where young kids got a hold of parents firearms and either shot themselves or other loved ones dead. It's just nuts that people have such love affairs with firearms and are in constant fear that someone is going to take away their "gun rights".

OK I'm done with commenting on this topic. Enjoy.

 

[markw]

Cartagena Columbia? Really?

Again, straw men and outliers, Gene. How about those two 12 year old girls that stabbed their "friend" 19 times to show some mythical internet baddie they were worthy of a visit from him. Likewise that sicko last week that stabbed three people along with shooting several others. So, knives should be outlawed too?

no, it's not the hardware, it's the software that controls them.

 

[gene]

Cartagena Columbia? Really?

Again, straw men and outliers, Gene. How about those two 12 year old girls that stabbed their "friend" 19 times to show some mythical internet baddie they were worthy of a visit from him. Likewise that sicko last week that stabbed three people along with shooting several others. So, knives should be outlawed too?

no, it's not the hardware, it's the software that controls them.

Knives can't kill 30-40 people in a matter of minutes like an assault rifle did at Sandy Hook. Really Give me a F'ing break. We really don't need to go there.

If you enable even the most sane person with the ultimate hardware they cannot be trusted. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.