Vocal quality

[mdaleah]

Dear Audioholics,

Please help me understand what is happening. The vocal quality of my system is slightly, but noticeably, better (more natural, deeper, and transparent) when the mains are set to "large" rather than "small." I'd like to run them small for various reasons, but I find that setting them to large results in better vocals. My receiver is a Yamaha RXV-667. Is this characteristic common among all AVRs, or should I consider a different type of receiver. Thank you for your input!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Small or large speakers will affect your bass management settings. Small will enable bass crossover, while Large will send full range signal to mains.
If you have a solid sub which is configured correctly you should not have a reason to run mains as large, but if you don't you pretty much must run mains as large.

As for vocals, check your crossover settings if it set too high by mistake - 80-100hz is ok, 200hz is not ok in most cases (except tiny-tiny ala "bose" cubes)

 

[j_garcia]

You haven't given enough information about your setup for us to actually provide assistance. Do you have a subwoofer? Is the system calibrated (YPAO?) What speakers do you have and what crossover point did YPAO choose if you ran it?

As mentioned, if the x-over point is too high, a good portion of the vocal range will get sent to the sub and if the sub doesn't handle the upper range well or is not properly place and calibrated, your vocals will likely suffer. Set to large, the vocals are sent entirely to the speakers and that's why you hear a difference.

 

[mdaleah]

Thank you! My towers are Polk RTi-A7s with 7" woofers, and my subwoofers are SVS SB-2000s. YPAO usually sets the crossover at 80 Hz. I'm by-passing the AVR filters (no PEQ or treble/bass adjustment) because that sounds best to me. Mainly using YPAO for distance settings. Usually manually set AVR crossover to 60 or 80 Hz; subwoofer x-over is set to LFE.

The overall bass resonse is better (more distinct and punchier) when the system is set to "small," but I lose some vocal quality (depth) at this setting. Am I the only audiophyte that has experienced this dilemma?

 

[j_garcia]

I'd expect the SVSs to handle vocals fine and also would not expect an issue with an 80Hz x-over, so it seems more like you have a room and/or speaker placement issue. Are you using a center channel? If not, is it turned off in the speaker configuration for sure?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The quality of my Center channel dialogue does NOT change at all when I change the speaker configurations.

This is the first time I've heard this issue.

As others have noted, changing the speaker size configuration from Small to Large and vice versa may change the bass/LFE output amount, but not the quality of the vocal/dialogue.

 

[j_garcia]

As others have noted, changing the speaker size configuration from Small to Large and vice versa may change the bass/LFE output amount, but not the quality of the vocal/dialogue.

It could if the x-over was too high and was rerouting a good portion of the vocal range, but it does not sound like that's what's happening here.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It could if the x-over was too high and was rerouting a good portion of the vocal range, but it does not sound like that's what's happening here.

I've set my XO to 250Hz just for kicks when I was testing out different XO points, and I never heard any changes on my Center dialogue.

 

[mdaleah]

I'd expect the SVSs to handle vocals fine and also would not expect an issue with an 80Hz x-over, so it seems more like you have a room and/or speaker placement issue. Are you using a center channel? If not, is it turned off in the speaker configuration for sure?

Yes, I've had on-going problems with subwoofer placement and phase alignment. The subs are not equidistant to the main listening position. Upon speaking with SVS recently, I think I"ve finally got that problem mostly figured-out, but not perfected. The issue I'm having with vocal performance seems to be more related to the AVR circuitry and setting, but perhaps I'm mistaken, and perhaps it is a problem with speaker placement and phase alignment, as you suggest.

The vocal-quality issue is most prevalent during two-channel listening when my discernmenet is highest. During home theater listening, the vocal quallity is adequate.

 

[mdaleah]

I've set my XO to 250Hz just for kicks when I was testing out different XO points, and I never heard any changes on my Center dialogue.

That's interesting. the quality of my Center dialogue definitely changes (more or less rich) when changing the confiuration between large and small.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

At this point any more guessing is pretty much useless.
You need to start measuring to try to find the issue. As mentioned room modes are likely culprit

 

[TLS Guy]

That's interesting. the quality of my Center dialogue definitely changes (more or less rich) when changing the confiuration between large and small.

Your problem is your Polk speakers. Those speakers have a misaligned "bloaty" bottom end.

You, like quite a few individuals who listen to speakers have got used to in incorrect high Q bass alignment. A rich bass is not an accurate one. If you like it keep your speakers set to large.

I hate a loose bloated lower register. Bass should be firm and tight.

 

[mdaleah]

Thank you to everyone for your help.

 

[mdaleah]

Your problem is your Polk speakers. Those speakers have a misaligned "bloaty" bottom end.

You, like quite a few individuals who listen to speakers have got used to in incorrect high Q bass alignment. A rich bass is not an accurate one. If you like it keep your speakers set to large.

I hate a loose bloated lower register. Bass should be firm and tight.

That just it: I don't like the bass quality when set to large, but I lose some vocal quality when set to small.

 

[TLS Guy]

That just it: I don't like the bass quality when set to large, but I lose some vocal quality when set to small.

You can't have it both ways. You don't like the bass of the Polk's but you like the vocals. So you have got used to an aberrant vocal quality. You have not "lost" vocal quality, but you have "lost" your reference point for good vocal quality.

This really highlights an issue I have learned over the years. Often the worst judgement of whether speakers are any good comes from people who listen a lot to loudspeakers!

Keeping good personal reference points, takes continuous work. Few people work at it, and that is a big reason so many lousy speakers abound and you own a set.

 

[markw]

I agree 100%!

Bass should be firm and tight.

Oh wait... I didn't see the "B" at the beginning of the sentence.

sorry. I can't resist a straight line.

 

[mdaleah]

You can't have it both ways. You don't like the bass of the Polk's but you like the vocals. So you have got used to an aberrant vocal quality. You have not "lost" vocal quality, but you have "lost" your reference point for good vocal quality.

This really highlights an issue I have learned over the years. Often the worst judgement of whether speakers are any good comes from people who listen a lot to loudspeakers!

Keeping good personal reference points, takes continuous work. Few people work at it, and that is a big reason so many lousy speakers abound and you own a set.

So, the problem is the speakers and my lack of musical knowledge and experience. Got it. Thanks.

 

[j_garcia]

I haven't heard the A7s, but I've heard others in the line. Polk isn't really much loved around here, but the RTiA line isn't bad; mids to me likely their weak point, but I still think something else is going on here. What sources are you using and how are they connected? When listening to music are you listening in STEREO or a particular mode? Do you have the same issue when set to Pure Direct? Same thing from ALL sources? It IS possible the Yamaha is doing something differently with the two different settings; seems odd, but possible.

I HAVE experienced something similar with some Paradigm speakers - my center sounded a bit hollow when crossed over at 80Hz and had better vocals when set to large but then too much bass was going to the center and it couldn't handle it so it sounded muddy. Completely different scenario, but possibly for the same reason.

 

[mdaleah]

I haven't heard the A7s, but I've heard others in the line. Polk isn't really much loved around here, but the RTiA line isn't bad; mids to me likely their weak point, but I still think something else is going on here. What sources are you using and how are they connected? When listening to music are you listening in STEREO or a particular mode? Do you have the same issue when set to Pure Direct? Same thing from ALL sources? It IS possible the Yamaha is doing something differently with the two different settings; seems odd, but possible.

I HAVE experienced something similar with some Paradigm speakers - my center sounded a bit hollow when crossed over at 80Hz and had better vocals when set to large but then too much bass was going to the center and it couldn't handle it so it sounded muddy. Completely different scenario, but possibly for the same reason.

Thank you for your response. I was about to give up on Audioholics because my system sucks and I'm an idiot. All of which might be true, but still hard to hear considering I came here for help and to learn more about the hobby.

To answer your kind questions: My primary listing source is a basic Sony DVD/CD player connected via Toslink to the AVR. When listening to music (which is my primary interest), I listen in two-channel mode with the subwoofers active. As you know, when set to Pure Direct, the subwoofers are de-activated, and the mains receive the full band-width, which is equivalent to running them "large"? I'm pretty happy with Pure Direct: the bass is clean and the vocals have depth, but the subs are de-activated which is a bummer.

I'm not as discriminating when listening to home theater or other sources (i.e. Pandora), so I'm honestly not sure whether this problem is occurring in other modes.

I do think the problem resides with the AVR. This is my second Yamaha. My first Yamaha never seemed to work properly...

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Dear mdaleah,
I have to confess - I'm not a big Polk fan with that said no one had (yet) called you names

like I have mentioned before - best route to diagnose the situation is to measure both uses and see where the issue lies
Measuring is not too complicated. All you need a inexpensive mic, stand for it, some free software and a computer - any will do