Sealed can't be all bad for Home Theater use

[ImcLoud]

So a sealed sub has just as much port noise/chauf/resonance as a ported sub, take 2 os the same subs and amps and put one in a large ported and one is a small sealed {properly designed} they are going to do 2 different things, and in my experience I will like the ported better for HT and the sealed better for music, not saying the sealed wont do ht well, but it wont have the output of the ported, and Im not saying the ported wont make nice music but not as fast easy to place and clear as the sealed...

Agree of disagree, sometimes its just how it is, I know its "COOL" to disagree with the old "audio religion" like an avr is just as good as mono blocks and a preamp, direct path is the same as a good avr, sealed and ported subs reproduce music the same way, ect ect ect... But I can tell you that if you compare my cheap 2.2 bookshelf system to the same system except with ported subs and a denon avr the sealed and monoblocks will sound better.... You guys talk about getting the "best sound" but ignore what will make a difference, even if its just a small one... If you don't have the room or means for a music only system no big deal, having one system for both is "just" as good, but when I am listening to music I like to sit rite in front of the speakers, centered with everything, in the parlor where we watch movies that is impossible...

And Im not talking about the music in movies, I obviously know that there is music in movies, but Im talking about critical listening ignore it if you want, but you compare listening to the music in a movie which is normally a 40 second bit of a song while the character of the film runs through the streets of Philly with a bunch of kids chasing him {rocky reference} to sitting down in a quite room and playing a playlist of material while sitting in the "sweet" spot with no distractions, just a dim light, glass of whiskey and an unlit Goldwin Louixs, maybe the light glow of audioholics.com on an ipad, who knows?

And as far as the lv12r, don't take it personal 3db, Im just saying I like my vtf2 better, I bought the lv12 with the intention of replacing my vtf2s with them and it would have been a step down, not a big deal I let my mom keep it, I did try and get it to sound as good, and it ssounds good, Im not saying its a pile of unuseable trash, just the vtf2 is better {to me}...

 

[DannyA]

Danny try this song https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdVVLbe1rfY , there I noticed my musical subs pick up everything and you can hear separation where my HT subs sound good but kind of run the end of the lows off, like they don't have a finish to them, where with the music subs they wrap at the end of the bass note... Plus this songs shows how nice your highs are with the cymbals sound and Domingo's voice sounds really good on any speaker with neutral mids..

Oh yeah. I've heard this one. I'd like to get this and some other older tracks added to my collection. I'm not sure what will be available on CD. I am planning on adding a turntable to my system so hopefully I can find some of this stuff on vinyl. I can stream youtube from my BD player but I hate using a remote to navigate the menu. I have a Samsung BD player so there might be an app for my phone/tablet that would make it easier to navigate.

Pioneer PDP-5020FD
Yamaha RX-V3800
Samsung BD-F5700 Blu-ray Player
Sony - PS3
Definitive Technology BP7006 Mains
Definitive Technology CS-8060 HD Center
Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000 Surround
Power Sound Audio XS 15 Subwoofer

 

[3db]

So a sealed sub has just as much port noise/chauf/resonance as a ported sub, take 2 os the same subs and amps and put one in a large ported and one is a small sealed {properly designed} they are going to do 2 different things, and in my experience I will like the ported better for HT and the sealed better for music, not saying the sealed wont do ht well, but it wont have the output of the ported, and Im not saying the ported wont make nice music but not as fast easy to place and clear as the sealed...

Agree of disagree, sometimes its just how it is, I know its "COOL" to disagree with the old "audio religion" like an avr is just as good as mono blocks and a preamp, direct path is the same as a good avr, sealed and ported subs reproduce music the same way, ect ect ect... But I can tell you that if you compare my cheap 2.2 bookshelf system to the same system except with ported subs and a denon avr the sealed and monoblocks will sound better.... You guys talk about getting the "best sound" but ignore what will make a difference, even if its just a small one... If you don't have the room or means for a music only system no big deal, having one system for both is "just" as good, but when I am listening to music I like to sit rite in front of the speakers, centered with everything, in the parlor where we watch movies that is impossible...

And Im not talking about the music in movies, I obviously know that there is music in movies, but Im talking about critical listening ignore it if you want, but you compare listening to the music in a movie which is normally a 40 second bit of a song while the character of the film runs through the streets of Philly with a bunch of kids chasing him {rocky reference} to sitting down in a quite room and playing a playlist of material while sitting in the "sweet" spot with no distractions, just a dim light, glass of whiskey and an unlit Goldwin Louixs, maybe the light glow of audioholics.com on an ipad, who knows?

And as far as the lv12r, don't take it personal 3db, Im just saying I like my vtf2 better, I bought the lv12 with the intention of replacing my vtf2s with them and it would have been a step down, not a big deal I let my mom keep it, I did try and get it to sound as good, and it ssounds good, Im not saying its a pile of unuseable trash, just the vtf2 is better {to me}...

My ears and walls will give up before I hear any chuffing, resonance, or port noise. All my listening is critical whether music or HT but I don't swallow the audiophool medicine that seems to prevalent in the audio industry.

 

[ImcLoud]

My ears and walls will give up before I hear any chuffing, resonance, or port noise. All my listening is critical whether music or HT but I don't swallow the audiophool medicine that seems to prevalent in the audio industry.

See for me its different, I pay as much attention to the sq while watching a movie as I do to music while driving in my car, when I sit down to listen to music, that what I am doing, not watching a tv not clipping my toenails, I am listening to music... When I watch tv I am answering phone calls, talking to the kids and my wife, doing paper work {I sometimes do paperwork while I listen to music too}, eating {try to notice all the nuances when chewing on kettle corn}, tv is not the same to me as music, my ht sounds great, and I can play music through it, its sounds awesome that is how I set up the left and right channels, but its not the same as a designated system, I would move the speakers closer together, have the subs in the front next to them {and my vtfs dont sound as good in the front}, and the seating wouldn't be all over the room...

 

[ImcLoud]

Oh yeah. I've heard this one. I'd like to get this and some other older tracks added to my collection. I'm not sure what will be available on CD. I am planning on adding a turntable to my system so hopefully I can find some of this stuff on vinyl. I can stream youtube from my BD player but I hate using a remote to navigate the menu. I have a Samsung BD player so there might be an app for my phone/tablet that would make it easier to navigate.

Pioneer PDP-5020FD
Yamaha RX-V3800
Samsung BD-F5700 Blu-ray Player
Sony - PS3
Definitive Technology BP7006 Mains
Definitive Technology CS-8060 HD Center
Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000 Surround
Power Sound Audio XS 15 Subwoofer

Itunes, has yet to not have a song I wanted {well a couple, but nothing that I didn't expect}...

 

[3db]

See for me its different, I pay as much attention to the sq while watching a movie as I do to music while driving in my car, when I sit down to listen to music, that what I am doing, not watching a tv not clipping my toenails, I am listening to music... When I watch tv I am answering phone calls, talking to the kids and my wife, doing paper work {I sometimes do paperwork while I listen to music too}, eating {try to notice all the nuances when chewing on kettle corn}, tv is not the same to me as music, my ht sounds great, and I can play music through it, its sounds awesome that is how I set up the left and right channels, but its not the same as a designated system, I would move the speakers closer together, have the subs in the front next to them {and my vtfs dont sound as good in the front}, and the seating wouldn't be all over the room...

Yeah..kettle corn works equally well for HT and music during critical listening.

I set up room up for 2 channel first as far as speaker placement goes relative to the seating position. I happen to luck out that it also works perfectly for my HT purpose. While watching a movie or listening to music, I find myself momentarily distracted when I notice something in the sound field that calls my attention to it. My system still drops my jaws on occasion and I have had it for over 5 years now with the exception of the sub which is about 6 months old now.

 

[ImcLoud]

See, my 340's fronts in my ht sound WAY better closed in and towards the center of the room, but that closes out the left and right seating and my wife would flip out if I blocked the fireplace with speakers, since my screen and center are mounted over the fireplace... It sounds really good, and the ascends are awesome, but nothing about them makes them attractive as music only speakers, most of that has to do with aesthetics though...

 

[DannyA]

I would agree with db3 that that quality of the sub(s) in your price range is the most important factor. Sealed vs ported? Good points have been made for both but I tend to agree with ImCloud. It just seems to me that a sealed sub would be better for music and still give you high performance HT. Other factors you mentioned was weight and size. Maybe you want a nice cherry wood finish as opposed to a flat black or piano black finish. Maybe two smaller sealed subs. Make a list of subs that fit your criteria and pick the one(s) that hit the most check marks.

Once you have your high quality sub(s), the real key is placement and tuning! Placement can be a real challenge based on your room layout but be patient and stick with it. I can't tell you the difference it makes. Once it is well placed, the tuning will be that much easier.

Pioneer PDP-5020FD
Yamaha RX-V3800
Samsung BD-F5700 Blu-ray Player
Sony - PS3
Definitive Technology BP7006 Mains
Definitive Technology CS-8060 HD Center
Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000 Surround
Power Sound Audio XS 15 Subwoofer

 

[zhimbo]

, I have been on the sets of a few films during production and there is nothing controlled about how the movie is recorded,

I missed this before. For many films, especially big budget films, almost none of what you hear on the soundtrack - including the dialogue - is from the time of filming, but is carefully recorded and produced in studio in post-production.

 

[ImcLoud]

I missed this before. For many films, especially big budget films, almost none of what you hear on the soundtrack - including the dialogue - is from the time of filming, but is carefully recorded and produced in studio in post-production.

I specifically asked Micheal Corrente about this a few years back, because I was on set while they were recording and the wind was blowing, there was sirens on the highway behind us and I could barely here myself think never mind what they were saying on the film... What you are talking about is called ADR {not sure what it stands for but google would know} and they use this for rewrites and to change text post production, and its not as seamless as you would think, I pick it up sometimes in movies... They will add stuff like background noise and of course music but the dialog is mostly recorded on set, they had mics everywhere, mics in the actors hair, boom mics with crazy wind sheilds, ect.. he also said as far as noise goes, they can pull out sirens and car horns in post like they were never there and with the mics they use a lot of it gets filtered before its recorded... I remember this conversation well because he mentioned the ADR thing a few times and said he will do as little as possible with it because its not perfect and the actors hate it... He was making notes the entire time in filming {I was only there a of couple afternoons, but it was a blast and I learned a lot...}

So if you think movies are made with ALL studio quality sound recordings you are mistaken, I wouldn't know what percentage is used I'm sure it changes film to film but for them to actout an entire movie and then reread it and rerecord the entire thing again would be insane, even by hollywood standards... You can tell the difference between something like Shreks sound and the sound quality from a movie like The Watch, I was watching the Watch a few weeks back and you could hear a lot of background noise, we tend to fade it out and not pay attention to it, but I just had the movie on not paying specific attention to the dialogue so I picked it up, then with a movie like shrek recorded in a studio you get good quality and can tell the difference...


Edit I just googled adr because I wanted to make sure I had the letters rite ... http://library.creativecow.net/cowdog/ADR/1
here is a quote from it explaining how difficult it is...
But no, ADR is very specific: voices, most often a line at a time. Sounds easy, right? Wrong. There's a whole set of "gotchas" that are a library's worth of articles by themselves, around the problem of making words spoken in the studio sound like they were actually recorded on location.
James G. Stewart, head of post-production at RKO Studios, talks about one such challenge when working with Orson Welles on "The Magnificent Ambersons."

There were six principals involved in the dialogue, and I recorded each one separately to the picture. This was done without Orson being on the stage. I then combined these tracks and rerecorded them with the necessary motor noise of the old-type automobile.
On running the result with Orson, he said "It's all right technically, but it's no good from the standpoint of realism. I don't feel that the people are in the automobile. There's no sense of movement in their voices; they're not responding to the movements of the car. The voices are much too static."
So I went back to the recording stage and redid all of the lines. This time they were done with the actor or actress and myself seated on a twelve inch plank suspended between saw-horses. As we watched the picture I simulated the movement of the car by bouncing the performer and myself up and down on the plank. After a week of bumping, I had a track which I then rerecorded and ran for Welles. His only comment was "That's very good". Orson was not given to exaggerated praise of anyone's efforts.




Anyone that thinks a movie has as good of sound quality as Studio Production Music needs new speakers...
​

 

[j_garcia]

Movies or music, all of the sound is fabricated, though generally with two very different intents. Movie effects are intended to make you believe the sound you hear is what you are seeing. Music is more or less intended for your ears for all intents and purposes. Different forms of escape; similar end result - entertainment, but IMO, for different states of mind.

 

[zhimbo]

So if you think movies are made with ALL studio quality sound recordings you are mistaken, I wouldn't know what percentage is used I'm sure it changes film to film but for them to actout an entire movie and then reread it and rerecord the entire thing again would be insane, even by hollywood standards...

It isn't insane, it's completely normal. It's true of every single animated feature (well, not "re" acted), and it's nearly true of many non-animated films as well. Even the sounds of shifting armor and footsteps during a conversation in a big historical or fantasy epic are likely the work of foley artists.

"Many of the films I work on are "action-adventure" movies which have notoriously noisy sets. So they tend to have a much higher percentage of ADR. The movie "Contact," for example, was about 60% production and 40% ADR. "Apocalypse Now" was about 80 to 90% ADR. " - Randy Thom (http://filmsound.org/QA/ADR-Discussion.htm)

 

[ImcLoud]

It isn't insane, it's completely normal. It's true of every single animated feature (well, not "re" acted), and it's nearly true of many non-animated films as well. Even the sounds of shifting armor and footsteps during a conversation in a big historical or fantasy epic are likely the work of foley artists.

"Many of the films I work on are "action-adventure" movies which have notoriously noisy sets. So they tend to have a much higher percentage of ADR. The movie "Contact," for example, was about 60% production and 40% ADR. "Apocalypse Now" was about 80 to 90% ADR. " - Randy Thom (http://filmsound.org/QA/ADR-Discussion.htm)

you said "For many films, especially big budget films, almost none of what you hear on the soundtrack - including the dialogue - is from the time of filming, but is carefully recorded and produced in studio in post-production. "

"almost none" to me is 98-99% , and obviously every animated movie is done in a studio, I said this in my original post, but anyway, Movies do not have the clean untouched audio content that a well recorded piece of music has, this is my point, not a big deal.. I personally don't think tv audio is as important as music, not to me anyway, but I listen to more music then I watch tv, I watch a movie here and there, the news for a few minutes each morning while Im getting ready for work, and a few shows I like to not miss, as for music it is every day, at least an hour in front of one of my systems..

 

[zhimbo]

"Movies do not have the clean untouched audio content that a well recorded piece of music has,"


Not universally true. Some movies have excellent, carefully recorded music and sound.

I'm not going to argue whether or not 90% counts as "almost everything" or not - but realize that only refers to the dialogue. For many movies (and all animated features), most of the *sound* is not from filming (""Every single element of what you hear in the movie has to be created by somebody, piece by piece" - Peter Jackson on The Two Towers), and of course the *music* is almost never from on-location.

 

[shadyJ]

Imcloud, you seem to be greatly over-estimating the purity of music production if you think movie sound is so lacking in authenticity. A lot of fluffing is done to make music recordings sound better than what was first recorded. A lot of sounds added and a lot subtracted. For example:
[video=youtube;G2Rhh_4GZmU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2Rhh_4GZmU[/video]

OK that might be an exaggeration, but just spend some time with a sound engineer. Look how any widely released piece of music goes from the mic to the master print. The original recorded sound is always heavily altered.

 

[3db]

I would agree with db3 that that quality of the sub(s) in your price range is the most important factor. Sealed vs ported? Good points have been made for both but I tend to agree with ImCloud. It just seems to me that a sealed sub would be better for music and still give you high performance HT. Other factors you mentioned was weight and size. Maybe you want a nice cherry wood finish as opposed to a flat black or piano black finish. Maybe two smaller sealed subs. Make a list of subs that fit your criteria and pick the one(s) that hit the most check marks.

Once you have your high quality sub(s), the real key is placement and tuning! Placement can be a real challenge based on your room layout but be patient and stick with it. I can't tell you the difference it makes. Once it is well placed, the tuning will be that much easier.

Pioneer PDP-5020FD
Yamaha RX-V3800
Samsung BD-F5700 Blu-ray Player
Sony - PS3
Definitive Technology BP7006 Mains
Definitive Technology CS-8060 HD Center
Definitive Technology Pro Monitor 1000 Surround
Power Sound Audio XS 15 Subwoofer

My ported Rythmik sub would stand shoulder to shoulder with any sealed sub you care to mention for bass articulation provided its not trying to fill a room that is to large for its intended design. Its THAT good.

 

[ImcLoud]

3db, did you ever hear a sb12 or uls15? I owned all three subs and the lv12 I don't hear what you hear, my vtf2 sounds better than the lv12 in the same room, my brothers and a couple of true water reps {they happened to be there when we a b tested the two, thats how much I wanted to like the lv12 I brought the vtf2 from my house to my mothers to try them in the same room!!!}.... And the sb12's sound better than the vtf2, the vtf2 had a lot more Rumble and overall output but the sb12 is cleaner, I even tried plugging it up with the plugs hsu gives you, and sb12 still wins...

Shady I know that music is "altered" it is made to sound better, any room noise is removed, things are smoothed, they make up for any mic inadequacies ect, and I seen how long it takes to get it rite, thats my point, all that work and time to get it rite and its recorded in a booth, now record that on the street and see what it sounds like, I know you guys can not believe that movies have the same sound quality as music?????

And the zhimbo, obviously not all movies are recorded like lord of the rings? there are honestly about 7 movies I can think f that had impressive sq and LOR is 3 of them...

 

[its phillip]

you need to watch some better movies.

also, you should talk to people like filmmixer on avs to see just how much work goes in to audio production in film.

 

[lsiberian]

In my ears ported systems have a resonate making incredible symphonies, operas, and musicals while murdering 90s rock and poorly mastered recordings. I've heard this clear difference in my own designs and others. Most of my collection is from the loudness wars era which means sealed systems are the best option.

 

[3db]

3db, did you ever hear a sb12 or uls15? I owned all three subs and the lv12 I don't hear what you hear, my vtf2 sounds better than the lv12 in the same room, my brothers and a couple of true water reps {they happened to be there when we a b tested the two, thats how much I wanted to like the lv12 I brought the vtf2 from my house to my mothers to try them in the same room!!!}.... And the sb12's sound better than the vtf2, the vtf2 had a lot more Rumble and overall output but the sb12 is cleaner, I even tried plugging it up with the plugs hsu gives you, and sb12 still wins...

Shady I know that music is "altered" it is made to sound better, any room noise is removed, things are smoothed, they make up for any mic inadequacies ect, and I seen how long it takes to get it rite, thats my point, all that work and time to get it rite and its recorded in a booth, now record that on the street and see what it sounds like, I know you guys can not believe that movies have the same sound quality as music?????

And the zhimbo, obviously not all movies are recorded like lord of the rings? there are honestly about 7 movies I can think f that had impressive sq and LOR is 3 of them...

You may have a defective sub but you take it as a perfectly good working sub. Since you didn't work with Rythmik to solve your problem, I'm not holding much value of your opinion for that sub. I've had many a friends over and they are totally blown away with the performance and when I mentioned the price, they stand their flabbergasted.