Why do I enjoy listening to my car's stock speakers more than $2000 bookshelves???

L

ljbrandt

Audioholic Intern
Ok, I feel embarrassed to admit this, but here it goes....

So, for the past year or so, I've been tinkering with a desktop setup that includes a dedicated DAC, amp and high quality bookshelf speakers (currently MB Quart Vera VS05's which MSRP'd for over 2k). The sound coming out of this setup is extremely resolved and highly enjoyable. It's the closest I've ever heard speakers sounding like live music.

Now for the bad part...
I also drive a 2004 Chevrolet impala (base model, not even the LS...what can i say, I take care of my vehicles and they last). Lately I've been listening to "the classics" on NPR's local FM2 station. I have no idea what stock speakers and amp Chevy decided to use with this vehicle, but for whatever strange reason, I find myself more involved listening to classical music in my car than on my computer.

I'll try my best to explain it so maybe you guys can help me out in what is going on here.

In the impala, the sound seems effortless, airy and completely encompassing. The music is not coming from boxes, but rather from all around me in the air. It is warm and soothing yet very coherent. The details are nowhere even close to the Vera's, but piano and strings are very full and relaxed yet not recessed.

I thought maybe this was just a phenomenon associated with listening to music with 4 speakers in an enclosed space...but my wife's 2005 accord stock system is nowhere near the impalas enjoyment.

What is going on here? Why do I like the impala's stock speakers so much with classical music?! What kind of speakers are they? What am I looking for to reproduce and improve upon this at home--perhaps radial speakers?

Please tell me I'm not crazy here.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ok, I feel embarrassed to admit this, but here it goes....

So, for the past year or so, I've been tinkering with a desktop setup that includes a dedicated DAC, amp and high quality bookshelf speakers (currently MB Quart Vera VS05's which MSRP'd for over 2k). The sound coming out of this setup is extremely resolved and highly enjoyable. It's the closest I've ever heard speakers sounding like live music.

Now for the bad part...
I also drive a 2004 Chevrolet impala (base model, not even the LS...what can i say, I take care of my vehicles and they last). Lately I've been listening to "the classics" on NPR's local FM2 station. I have no idea what stock speakers and amp Chevy decided to use with this vehicle, but for whatever strange reason, I find myself more involved listening to classical music in my car than on my computer.

I'll try my best to explain it so maybe you guys can help me out in what is going on here.

In the impala, the sound seems effortless, airy and completely encompassing. The music is not coming from boxes, but rather from all around me in the air. It is warm and soothing yet very coherent. The details are nowhere even close to the Vera's, but piano and strings are very full and relaxed yet not recessed.

I thought maybe this was just a phenomenon associated with listening to music with 4 speakers in an enclosed space...but my wife's 2005 accord stock system is nowhere near the impalas enjoyment.

What is going on here? Why do I like the impala's stock speakers so much with classical music?! What kind of speakers are they? What am I looking for to reproduce and improve upon this at home--perhaps radial speakers?

Please tell me I'm not crazy here.
The best sound system most people own is in their cars.

Only a minority of people have good home audio systems now. Pretty much everyone has a car audio system.

A lot of manufacturers have invested vast amounts of money in car audio. There have been partnerships, Audi with B & O, GM with Pioneer for instance.

The car presents opportunities and risks. You are largely in the near field, and the cab gives a lot of LF gain.

The minus is the difficulty of driver placement and space issues.

In many ways car systems are more advanced than home systems, where active crossovers are the rule, with the use of multiple amps.

In my 2011 Chevy Equinox, the audio system is by Pioneer. Vast amounts was spent on R & D and the team was led by experienced engineers recruited away from KEF.

Now the bulk of this R & D has been done in Europe, which favors a balance to classical music. I have found the audio system in my Equinox to be excellent. Classical music fans are pleased like I am, but pop music fans have not been so pleased.

The Audio in our Toyota Camry is fair at best. It is by JBL. I note the audio in my sons Ford Escape is very good.

The Bose system in our MERC was awful and bass heavy. The audio in my friends late model E class MERC is really dreadful.

So it is a mixed bag out there.

The reason you prefer your Impala system to your home system is that in all probability in many key parameters, it is in fact a better audio system.
 
L

ljbrandt

Audioholic Intern
I have to agree...classical is the bees knees but pop and rock don't hold a candle to my veras.

This is very enlightening, but when you say better audio system, you don't necessarily mean better audio components...just that the components have been specifically chosen and tuned to this particular listening space. I guess this goes to show how the whole isn't always the sum of its parts. Now...how can I recreate this experience in my home outside of hiring audio engineers from KEF? :)

Perhaps radial speakers?
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I have to agree...classical is the bees knees but pop and rock don't hold a candle to my veras.

This is very enlightening, but when you say better audio system, you don't necessarily mean better audio components...just that the components have been specifically chosen and tuned to this particular listening space. I guess this goes to show how the whole isn't always the sum of its parts. Now...how can I recreate this experience in my home outside of hiring audio engineers from KEF? :)

Perhaps radial speakers?
All good audio systems are the sum of intelligent compromise.

As for the components don't discount the possibility of the audio components being very high grade in your car. In my Equinox, the car a an inverter, and multiple high quality amps for each frequency band and a very powerful amp for the sub. This is the stock system for the LTZ.

As far as getting the experience in the home it takes a very good speaker system with at least two speakers and generally a couple of subs, unless the the speakers are truly full range. Those speakers are very rare and usually DIY like mine.

The subs need to be well integrated.

Then you need enough clean power to drive it to concert hall levels.

I don't know your speakers and can't find specs. Every review says what you do about these speakers: - "highly detailed." This may or may not be a red flag, but a lot of highly detailed speakers have major problems.

Pictures show those speakers to be very small. I would guess their F3 is 60 Hz which would be too high for the realistic reproduction of classical music without a sub.

For most classical music you need a 3db point of around 30 Hz, if you want to add large pipe organs to the mix and works that include them, then you need around 20 Hz.

The frequency response should be very smooth without peaks and valleys through out the range. The off axis response, should at at least mirror the on axis response even if not extending as high.

Now in a car you are in the near field and the speakers are against a flat surface generally.

Now in a home speaker, we usually have a narrow fronted cabinet in the room. So we get the issue of transition form a half space radiator to a full space radiator. The speaker rolls off 6 db per octave below that point. That point is determined by the width of the front baffle. From pictures I'd say for yours that is somewhere around 650 Hz. This has to be compensated for in the crossover. It requires dropping the impedance of the speaker, and the driver has to handle more power and suck ti from the amp. For a small bookshelf, complete BSC is almost impossible. For classical music getting this right is vital, otherwise strings, woodwind, brass and pianos are not properly balanced. Speakers with no or inadequate BSC often sound highly detailed.

The next issue is that the BSC required depends not just on the speaker, but room placement. Most speakers are designed for speakers to be about 14" from the adjacent room boundaries.

I have a system in mine where the BSC is active though electronic crossovers, and BSC can be set precisely for position and room.

Realistically reproducing a symphony orchestra, chamber groups, singers, pianos and pipe organs in the home is a tough challenge and achieved with a wide variety if success.

In conclusion, I would say your first steps are to optimize the position of your speakers in the room and add at least one sub and probably two properly integrated.

If you don't like the sound then, it is time to go speaker shopping.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I think it has a lot to do with a small confined space full of cushions... A friend of mine has a new Acura TL the sound system is amazing... I have had custom systems done in cars, not just throwing in new spekers and amps, but custom "designed for" systems and they sound nothing like that acura, if you ever have the chance to give that car a listen do so, you will be SHOCKED...

Ina small room it is really easy to get comfortable sound, my office sounds awesome with a 12" 150w subs and a pair of bookshelfs powered by a 50w amp...
 
L

ljbrandt

Audioholic Intern
As for the components don't discount the possibility of the audio components being very high grade in your car. In my Equinox, the car a an inverter, and multiple high quality amps for each frequency band and a very powerful amp for the sub. This is the stock system for the LTZ.
Not sure about the equinox, but this guy might disagree with you :)

GM Chevrolet Impala Factory Speakers FAIL.... - YouTube


In any case, I think space, and speaker placement are as important as the speakers themselves. Unfortunately, my Veras are crammed in the corner of a small room (the wife just kicked me out of MY old listening room b/c she needed the space more) and could be much improved with stands/space.

IMG_20140902_130944.jpg
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
L

ljbrandt

Audioholic Intern
Delco, now that sounds like a good speaker company...I think they make decent spark plugs as well :rolleyes:
 
JohnnieB

JohnnieB

Senior Audioholic
TLS..perhaps I missed it, what is BSC?

Big Size Cabinets :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The reason is not because the speakers in your car (Delco) are in-fact better than $2K bookshelf speakers. :D

There are many possibilities. It is difficult to know for a fact until you can rule out other variables. One may be your room's acoustic vs the car's acoustic. Are you using EQ or DSP for either one?
 
L

ljbrandt

Audioholic Intern
The reason is not because the speakers in your car (Delco) are in-fact better than $2K bookshelf speakers. :D

There are many possibilities. It is difficult to know for a fact until you can rule out other variables. One may be your room's acoustic vs the car's acoustic. Are you using EQ or DSP for either one?
No EQ with either one. Zieglj turned me on to enjoy listening to non-EQ'd sources with good speakers.

Perhaps I can be more specific about my comparisons:

1. The music (specifically classical) in my impala sounds enveloping and effortless. Piano, strings, vocals are soft and soothing, yet forward and immediate. I just listened to NPR's performance today and it was a relaxing experience on my way home from work.
vs
2. The music coming out of the veras is focused, concise and detailed but the music (at least in my setup) sound like it's coming from speakers. The music is directly in front of me rather than all around and I can pinpoint its source. It also seem constrained a bit, more so at lower volumes...keep in mind this is only for classical music. Other genres are in a different league.

I am using a Sabre ESS9023 dac, which can be a bit on the analytic side, but I have the new stoner acoustics UD120 on it's way which should offer a warmer presentation to the Veras. I'll report back on that later.

In the meantime, would anyone care to suggest speakers that might work better in my current setup especially with classical? I was thinking of trying the higher sensitivity CBM-170se's or try a crossoverless design such as gallo's or triangles...although I recently tried the gallo a'diva ti's and I wasn't very impressed compared to the veras.

Would radial speakers make more sense to try and match the soundstage in my car?

Listen to this guys' radial speakers on youtube...they sound great even though his camera's mic.
[video=youtube_share;YGiEd4d91nk]http://youtu.be/YGiEd4d91nk?list=PL5NxOYiTqE1CC933oSJZFfjw3LA_qPS7 E[/video]
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I think the issues with your near field speakers is placement, or the speaker itself... Try to spread them out more and angle them different... The ascend 200se's are a great nearfield speaker...
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The music coming out of the veras is focused, concise and detailed but the music (at least in my setup) sound like it's coming from speakers. The music is directly in front of me rather than all around and I can pinpoint its source.
So you prefer the sound to be more reflective or diffusive?

Perhaps you could add surround speakers and use Multi-Channel Stereo mode, instead of 2Ch. Sell your $2K bookshelf and get 5 NHT SuperZero speakers and listen to MCH stereo mode. The music will come from all around you.

Or use 2Ch stereo or Direct mode with 4 speakers (2 in front and 2 in rear like your car). Or you could audition some bipolar/dipole speakers that sound more reflective and diffusive.
 
M

MacPro

Enthusiast
I think it has a lot to do with a small confined space full of cushions... A friend of mine has a new Acura TL the sound system is amazing... I have had custom systems done in cars, not just throwing in new spekers and amps, but custom "designed for" systems and they sound nothing like that acura, if you ever have the chance to give that car a listen do so, you will shocked.
I agree with the Acura having amazing audio. Our MDX had the DVD Audio capable ELS system installed, and listening to Steve Miller Band's Fly Like an Eagle DTS audio cd was a fidelity I hadn't heard in a vehicle system in many many years, certainly never a stock system. It really was quite something.

Then we bought our Suburban with the Bose setup. A different sound signature for sure.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
I agree with the Acura having amazing audio. Our MDX had the DVD Audio capable ELS system installed, and listening to Steve Miller Band's Fly Like an Eagle DTS audio cd was a fidelity I hadn't heard in a vehicle system in many many years, certainly never a stock system. It really was quite something.

Then we bought our Suburban with the Bose setup. A different sound signature for sure.
Yes they are something, if anyone out there ever has the chance to take a listen to an acura with that ELS sound system ,do it.. I have heard systems in Benlyes and big money benz's and that thing smokes them..
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Okay, are you guys talking about listening to your car systems when the car is parked and the engine is off?

Because road noise, wind noise, rain noise, engine noise, other cars' noises, sirens, horns, etc. sure don't make good sound. :eek:
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Okay, are you guys talking about listening to your car systems when the car is parked and the engine is off?

Because road noise, wind noise, rain noise, engine noise, other cars' noises, sirens, horns, etc. sure don't make good sound. :eek:
Right - I do not enjoy music as much in the auto - and for sure not with stock speakers,
The Delco speakers got fired, they lean towards mellow with more of an artificial sound
character.

Some how the OP is enjoying the surround effect with the car for the Classical music.

I would get another pair (if could be found) of the Vera speakers for home use - and
try the set-up in surround mode for Classical music. If one can not find the Vera >>
then the Alexxa 1B should come close.
 
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