Which way to go....McIntosh content....

Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
In my opinion, McIntosh is not a good brand of amplifier. It used to be in the tube amplifier era of the 1950's. It's solid state amplifiers now still use those silly transformers at the output with resulting distortion, low damping factor etc.

They may perform well with highly sensitive pro audio loudspeakers, but It's impossible to drive many speakers which need an amplifier with a low output impedance with that sort of design, and get good results.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
In my opinion, McIntosh is not a good brand of amplifier. It used to be in the tube amplifier era of the 1950's. It's solid state amplifiers now still use those silly transformers at the output with resulting distortion, low damping factor etc.

They may perform well with highly sensitive pro audio loudspeakers, but It's impossible to drive many speakers which need an amplifier with a low output impedance with that sort of design, and get good results.
I think they are not good values, but their distortions figures, even IMD, are also typically very low. Also, I don't think they all have autoformers, may be most models do but not all. Like most people, I like their look and don't mind having one either.:D
 
mpitogo2000

mpitogo2000

Audioholic Intern
The MA5200 does not have an Autoformer which is likely why they only rate for 8ohms. The rest of the current lineup do and each typically have 8,4,2 ohm lugs delivering the rated power to the matched speaker load.

Supposedly the MA5200 was reviewed by a European mag to deliver 130w at 8ohms, 206 at 4 ohms and some number above 300 at 2 ohms. I agree they are not good value but like a cars it's a decision to choose a Cadillac over a Honda. I chose to buy Made in the USA. On the Chevy end of things Monoprice has a pretty darn good product, the Monolith and in the review it was also Made in the USA.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Apart from not being a good value, McIntosh amplifiers, because of the use of output transformers, have a high output impedance with a resulting low damping factor as low as 8. Many modern speakers which have a rather high Qts, will have a sluggish response with a muddy bass with those amplifiers.

Someone just has to compare those amplifiers on the same speakers with a good solid state amplifier to notice a great improvement with the direct coupling output.
 
mpitogo2000

mpitogo2000

Audioholic Intern
The topic starter was mainly regarding the MA5200. It has a wide band damping factor over 200. It doesn't have an autoformer.

In my case the LSi25 has a built in subwoofer plate amplifier for each speaker. Bass from what i can tell doesn't sound muddy.

I ( mildly audioholic) have four different rooms and systems each having a different sound characteristic. Office 5.1, bedroom 2.1, family room 7.2.2, living room 2.0 in comparison of 2ch these are the setup:

Office Onkyo TR-NX575 Polk Audio RT55 L/R PSW450 Sub (Audyssey XT). Bright and boomy. Bad room setup.

Bedroom Sansui AU-6900 Elac Debut B6 L/R Martin Logan Dynamo 500 Sub (EQ mild mid & high frq boost) Warm, boxy and flat/dull without some mid and high frq eq. room treatment better than office.

Family room Marantz SR7009 Martin Logan Motion 40 L/R dual Polk Audio DSW microPRO 3000 sub (Audyssey XT32) bright, deep, crisp.

Living room Mcintosh MA5209 Polk Audio LSi25 (no EQ) of the four it's the most natural sounding. Possibly because it's the largest room with little room boundary effects. Surprisingly the deepest lows.

And regarding DF see link
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response/damping-factor-effects-on-system-response-page-2
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
That's MacIntosh (the Audio company, or the Computer), not McIntosh (the apple variety).
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
That's MacIntosh (the Audio company, or the Computer), not McIntosh (the apple variety).
No, it's spelled the same as the apple.

By the way, you make your own interconnects. Do you use RG6 Coax cable for RCA connections?

I plan to make some RCA interconnects and I bought some RG6 Quad Shield cable. I am curious as to which brand of connectors and crimp tool you are using. There is no standard in plug sizing and design and there is a variety of crimping tools to match the various RCA compression connectors. Would you have any suggestion on that?
 
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Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
No, it's spelled the same as the apple.

By the way, you make your own interconnects. Do you use RG6 Coax cable for RCA connections?

I plan to make some RCA interconnects and I bought some RG6 Quad Shield cable. I am curious as to which brand of connectors and crimp tool you are using. There is no standard in plug sizing and design and there is a variety of crimping tools to match the various RCA compression connectors. Would you have any suggestion on that?
D'oh! I stand corrected.

How bad is that? Well, I could have looked across the room to my Mac tuner. I'm going to blame that I haven't had my Cappuccino yet today.

I don't use Coax for most line level interconnects. I do use them for Video. For basic RCA-RCA's I use either Canare L4ES or Mogami 2534 and 2893 "Star-Quad" cable and Canare F-09 or F-10 RCAs (all of the above are made in Japan).

Have been using that configuration for almost 20 years. It works well with the type of equipment I have been using thus far. I am in the process of building some DIY Power Amplifiers that offer ultra low distortion (like 0.0001%) and am interested in exploring other cable options with that level of resolution. For most systems I don't feel it's necessary to fuss too much over cable, just build fundamentally sound examples and carry on.

I am also probably going to try some Gotham Audio Star-Quad (Switzerland) in the future, as I use their cable for AC Power Cords. I hear differences between the Canare and Mogami builds (I prefer the Mogami 2893 overall, as long as capacitance isn't a significant issue, such as for cartridge to phono pre) but all three are worth the effort in my opinion.

For the low-down on Star-Quad construction, see the excellent blog post at Benchmark (and watch the embedded video, it's worth the time):
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/116637511-the-importance-of-star-quad-microphone-cable

I am currently awaiting some cable from Europe (Poland) to build clones of the Morrow Interconnects, will probably use KLE connectors (Australia) on those.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
The MA5200 does not have an Autoformer which is likely why they only rate for 8ohms. The rest of the current lineup do and each typically have 8,4,2 ohm lugs delivering the rated power to the matched speaker load.

Supposedly the MA5200 was reviewed by a European mag to deliver 130w at 8ohms, 206 at 4 ohms and some number above 300 at 2 ohms. I agree they are not good value but like a cars it's a decision to choose a Cadillac over a Honda. I chose to buy Made in the USA. On the Chevy end of things Monoprice has a pretty darn good product, the Monolith and in the review it was also Made in the USA.
The MA5200 does not have an Autoformer which is likely why they only rate for 8ohms.

But the other companies make amplifiers without autoformers and their amps can handle various speaker impedances. There is something weird about McIntosh designs.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
D'oh! I stand corrected.

How bad is that? Well, I could have looked across the room to my Mac tuner. I'm going to blame that I haven't had my Cappuccino yet today.

I don't use Coax for most line level interconnects. I do use them for Video. For basic RCA-RCA's I use either Canare L4ES or Mogami 2534 and 2893 "Star-Quad" cable and Canare F-09 or F-10 RCAs (all of the above are made in Japan). I am also probably going to try some Gotham Audio Star-Quad (Switzerland) in the future, as I use their cable for AC Power Cords.

I am currently awaiting some cable from Europe (Poland) to build clones of the Morrow Interconnects, will probably use KLE connectors (Australia) on those.
Do you use a Canare crimping tool with the F-09 or F-10 RCAs?
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Do you use a Canare crimping tool with the F-09 or F-10 RCAs?
They have a different model (RCAP-C Series) for Coax / Crimp connections. The F-09 and F-10 are solder tabs (one is a narrower barrel for tight panel layouts).

I'm not much help for Coax cables; I use Acoustic Research (now discontinued) for Video and I think Acrolink for S/PDIF Digital. I just have the one S/PDIF cable as I don't really use that interface much. Commercial varieties. The AR branded cables are just too cheap to overlook versus DIY. Unfortunately the new owner (Audiovox) has killed the cable lines, although NOS examples are still available.

In fact, if you want some, I bought up a supply, I can spare some. New in OEM packaging. PM me, won't be expensive.

We should carry this in a new thread if you have more questions, or just PM.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
They have a different model (RCAP-C Series) for Coax / Crimp connections. The F-09 and F-10 are solder tabs (one is a narrower barrel for tight panel layouts).

I'm not much help for Coax cables; I use Acoustic Research (now discontinued) for Video and I think Acrolink for S/PDIF Digital. I just have the one S/PDIF cable as I don't really use that interface much. Commercial varieties. The AR branded cables are just too cheap to overlook versus DIY. Unfortunately the new owner (Audiovox) has killed the cable lines, although NOS examples are still available.

In fact, if you want some, I bought up a supply, I can spare some. New in OEM packaging. PM me, won't be expensive.

We should carry this in a new thread if you have more questions, or just PM.
Since I already have some Monoprice 18AWG RG6 Quad Shield and some Canare L4E6S cables as well, I am just looking for decent RG6 RCA compression connectors and the appropriate crimping tool for the time being.
Thank you for your info and offer anyway.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
For about $4 a copy, and considering the build quality and materials, the Canare RCAs are difficult to beat. Only a couple of bucks more than junk connectors, and much less than some boutique versions that may not even equal the Canare specs. I don't know about you, but I'd rather pay $4 for a Japanese manufactured connector instead of $20 for one made in the PRC.
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
For about $4 a copy, and considering the build quality and materials, the Canare RCAs are difficult to beat. Only a couple of bucks more than junk connectors, and much less than some boutique versions that may not even equal the Canare specs. I don't know about you, but I'd rather pay $4 for a Japanese manufactured connector instead of $20 for one made in the PRC.
I agree with you to the fact that Canare connectors are difficult to beat for the price, but for best results you need their crimping tool which sells for over $100 and you have to buy a separate die set which costs over $75 US. That's a little bit too much for my personal needs. I am not a system installer. I am going to forget about that brand for RCA compression connectors.

Monoprice sell an affordable adjustable crimping tool which is advertised as suitable for Thomas & Betts, Paladin, SealTite and Aim connectors. Only $28.15. It got excellent reviews from purchasers.

I am going to look into the possibilities with this one. The only problem which I see with an independant brand adjustable crimper, is that you most likely have to spoil several connectors before you arrive to the proper adjustment and then you're all set, but that wouldn't cost $200 in connectors to discard. That is my current opinion.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I agree with you to the fact that Canare connectors are difficult to beat for the price, but for best results you need their crimping tool which sells for over $100 and you have to buy a separate die set which costs over $75 US. That's a little bit too much for my personal needs. I am not a system installer. I am going to forget about that brand for RCA compression connectors.

Monoprice sell an affordable adjustable crimping tool which is advertised as suitable for Thomas & Betts, Paladin, SealTite and Aim connectors. Only $28.15. It got excellent reviews from purchasers.

I am going to look into the possibilities with this one. The only problem which I see with an independant brand adjustable crimper, is that you most likely have to spoil several connectors before you arrive to the proper adjustment and then you're all set, but that wouldn't cost $200 in connectors to discard. That is my current opinion.
Curious, why not just use solder type?

ps Or if you can fit them in, these work with a simple screwdriver
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
Curious, why not just use solder type?

ps Or if you can fit them in, these work with a simple screwdriver
I could use the solder type, but I already have a lot of coax cable at hand which, as you know, is as good as any good audio cable since it can handle video signals. The compression type connector is also a lot simpler and faster to install. I could also use a solder type plug with the coax cable and I might just opt for that.

With regard to the screw type, it is rather bulky and that doesn't make a very professional installation.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
You can buy the Canare crimp tool, use it as much as you need, and resell it. As you might have guessed, people will pay top dollar for a used crimper in good condition.

I've never had a problem buying good tools. It's always been money well spent.

None of the connectors in your list are the equal of the Canare's, or many others for that matter. They are all datacomm grade. Not the same thing. Gold plating can't make a nickel plated brass RCA into audio nirvana.

If your plan involves using them you are almost certainly better off just buying commercial audio coax cables. Monoprice, Blue Jeans, or alternately, custom cable from someone like Redco will all be cheaper and more appropriate for the task than what you are planning to build.

I just test-built a custom RCA-RCA coax at Redco, 3 feet, $6.18

You are of course free to do what you like, but personally I think you are not going to get the maximum value out of your plan as you've laid it out so far.
 
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Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Spartan
You can buy the Canare crimp tool, use it as much as you need, and resell it. As you might have guessed, people will pay top dollar for a used crimper in good condition.

I've never had a problem buying good tools. It's always been money well spent.

None of the connectors in your list are the equal of the Canare's, or many others for that matter. They are all datacomm grade. Not the same thing. Gold plating can't make a nickel plated brass RCA into audio nirvana.

If your plan involves using them you are almost certainly better off just buying commercial audio coax cables. Monoprice, Blue Jeans, or alternately, custom cable from someone like Redco will all be cheaper and more appropriate for the task than what you are planning to build.

I just test-built a custom RCA-RCA coax at Redco, 3 feet, $6.18

You are of course free to do what you like, but personally I think you are not going to get the maximum value out of your plan as you've laid it out so far.
First of all, Canare may be better connectors than all the others, but will you hear a difference? I doubt it!

Also, you seem to imply that Nickel is a better than Gold for connectors. Nickel is not as good an electric conductor as Gold and, on top of that, it oxidises while Gold won't. My choice is obvious.
 
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Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
First of all, Canare may be better connectors than all the others, but will you hear a difference? I doubt it!

Also, you seem to imply that Nickel is a better than Gold for connectors. Nickel is not as good an electric conductor as Gold and, on top of that, it oxidizes while Gold won't. My choice is obvious.
You should be seeking out the conventional literature for answers to cable construction questions. I am not referring to "exotic" constructions, but basic Electrical theory; the buttons that should be pushed to construct a fundamentally sound interconnect, which is what any basic DIY cable should answer.

If you build a chip amp, you are cautioned to place certain capacitors as close to the chip input pin as possible, and you will read guidelines that suggest even a few millimetres can affect performance and stability. It's easily repeatable and viewable on an Oscilloscope, not to mention the tendency to introduce oscillation, which doesn't require any equipment to reveal. The dielectric of your cable and connector act as a capacitor affecting the signal fidelity. The debate isn't whether it affects the signal integrity ... everyone agrees it does ... but rather whether it's audible at audio frequencies.

That brings up the next question that needs to be addressed. "Audio Frequencies" are not limited to 20 KHz at the upper level. Any transient signal can be described electrically as a high frequency signal beyond 20 KHz (it's the rate of change in level over time). It's irrelevant whether humans can "hear" a steady state sine wave at that calculated frequency.

Nickel plated brass is not ideal if you have the option of beryllium copper as an alternative. The Gold plating is not actually that relevant, Sound Quality-wise.

You also want true 75 ohm connectors to avoid reflections smearing the signal. That is where the "above 20 KHz" performance becomes an issue. This is all basic stuff any competent Electrical Engineer right out of graduation can confirm; the type that is most likely to say "all cables sound the same". They say that when all the relevant criteria are met.

It's not an issue whether "you will hear a difference" (meaning me). I know I will, I've proven it to myself. The question is really whether *you* will hear a difference. That requires you construct two examples and discover the answer yourself.

We know from Audiology research that about 10% of the population does not have the cognitive support (their brains) to react at all to music. It can't be corrected by ear training; they don't react to music and never will; it's an un-correctable condition. Yet we do not exclude such individuals from Double-Blind testing.

Another 10% can't discern even obvious differences (ones that the other 80% have no trouble discerning). We don't exclude them from DBT either. And so on.

A small number of listeners can discern very subtle differences. We should also remember that the science of Audiology uses very rudimentary equipment and almost always is limited to an 8 KHz upper frequency limit (because research must be repeatable to be validated by other scientists; the essence of the Scientific Method and Peer Review, so they use the same limited fidelity gear worldwide). So some research is not very applicable to High Fidelity audio questions about audibility.

Which one are you? There is only one way to find out.

I am not a proponent that every audio question must be decided only by listening tests. I believe that fundamental science is a prerequisite to subjective conclusions. But, we don't buy Audio gear to play games with test equipment; we buy it to sound good to our brains *, to reproduce an emotional event stored in a recorded media. So the final answer must always be determined by listening because, simply put, that is the task our gear is supposed to perform.

* We don't "hear" only with our ears. Our brains don't restrict it's interpretation of audio events to just one sensory input. Our skin and other organs are pressure sensors, for example, and our brains use that sensory input to provide part of the auditory response. Other senses also play a part. We don't react to low frequency sounds with our ears alone, for example. The space between our ears is very small and corresponds to small wavelength responses and cancellation / doubling effects are distance related, yet we can discern the location of sounds in a 360degree sphere that correspond to very high frequencies. The physical construction of our ear canals themselves introduce 3rd Harmonic Distortions. There is much to this "audio reproduction" thing we are interested in that cannot be limited to simple 20~20KHz sine waves.
 
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