Which way to go....McIntosh content....

[Mangoman]

So, first, I want to introduce myself. Im a new guy from Minneapolis!

Long time reader, first time poster.

I finally am at that point to really upgrade my system to provide me a ton of enjoyment. I took my first steps by reading up a bit, and then went armed and ready to a couple Hi-fi retailers here in the twin cities.

For the last 10+ years, Ive run the following system: Denon AVR (i think the most current one I have is the 2301CI), with a denon CD changer, panasonic Blu Ray, and a matched set of Klipsch speakers. Nothing too crazy, but a lower end reference series ( Fronts, center, rears and a sub) sold by Ultimate electronics back around 2003/05??? Im guessing. I really don't think I really have heard these at their fullest potential by the way. Ive upgraded the AVR a few times, but its always been a Denon.

My preferences would be for music first, HT a distant second. Not big movie watchers, but it would be kinda cool to have a great set up. HOWEVER, Im not sure my wife likes the loud theatre volume the whole time, but does allow for louder music for when Im listening. Just don't want to shake the whole house..

So, without much adieu, most of the sales guys I met with (at separate spots) pointed me towards the same idea: buy separates, and most importantly, buy the best speakers you can afford. Well, these guys all pointed me to the B&W D3 series that were on the display. And, recommended MCIntosh for just about everything.

My room is small. Its basically 17ft long by 10 feet wide and 8 foot ceilings. listening/watching spot is 14 feet from the TV (60 inch 4K plasma) So not a huge footprint. I really don't need something big like the B&W 802D3 (nor do I really like the price), but i do want to do it right. So, I think the 805D3's just sound killer. I think if I mated those with a new sub or 2 subs or a sub/mid woofer set up, it could be just amazing. That said, the value guy in me thinks, although doing those speakers would be amazing, since I am upgrading from more of a mid-fi type speaker, would just a used 805....say an 805 D3 or S be just as compelling to me in my environment?? I gotta think there are some really great values under the $6k list of the new ones. I know I will try to match up the center, but get a different set of B&W's (read less expensive) for the rears (Would probably stay with the 5.1 as going to 7.1 probably wouldn't be aesthetically pleasing in my small space...dont want to cut into walls, etc either). Thoughts.....

BUT MY REAL QUESTION is, my dad had Marantz and McIntosh when I was growing up. Don't know the models, etc. So, my ears were just blown away with the amps, obviously. But I was thinking about going the integrated route (MA5200) and just running an HT Pre (emotiva is my thought currently) into the HT Bypass on the MA5200. Id have the McIntosh run the fronts and the Sub, and Then buy a small 3 channel amp (emotiva, to start....upgrade to McIntosh at some point) to run the Center and Rears. OR would I be better off buying a very nice McIntosh PreAmp that could do analog music and still decode for HT and just get a 5-channel amp for now, and save up for a McIntosh amp? this is my connundrum.....help please. I am sure Id be happy either way, but just want to future proof myself.

Of course from there, Id buy a nice blurry/CD/SACD player like an Oppo and a nice turntable to round it out.

Thanks for the help for this newbie!!

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

first of all. Welcome to AH and you're already did something smart - ask for advice prior to purchase rather than confirmation after it. Way to go!
To better help you, could provide us with specific model of speakers in front, including center and sub model.
However it is likely that you'll need to upgrade to replace of these, but to be honest , In my opinion, that is ALL you need to change. Your Denon AVR is fine. Oppo BD will not be much better than your panasonic, at best maybe 0.5% better. SACD is not a widespread and not all recording done in SACD need to be - ie not better than their CD equivalents.

If I were you, I'd spend 95% on speakers and rest on room treatment and measuring equipment, mainly special microphone like MiniDSP's Umik

The speaker I recommend highly are from Dennis Murphy's Philharmonic Audio. Slim powers with matching MTM center should allow you to enjoy music just as it was recorded and meant to be played.
http://philharmonicaudio.com/slims.html

 

[tyhjaarpa]

Speakers are like 95% of the sound you get and electronics like 5%. So you really should look for new speakers if you want to improve your sound. Electronics, even if old, will work just as good as new if they are not faulty. Having higher end avr is cheaper than going separates and will save you a lot money towards better speakers. As you have avr already I would keep it and start with speakers. Your players should be fine as well as they are digital and you are not using analog outs.

 

[lovinthehd]

What 4k plasma tv do you have?

I'd work on the speakers first and not necessarily B&W, but depends how much you liked them and if you're worried about selling them (B&W do tend to have high resale value but IMO more based on reputation than performance and gotta wonder why sales people always push 'em, guess the commissions are good too). You might want to read this thread http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/is-it-worth-saving-up-for-the-b-w-805-d3.106645/

McIntosh and Marantz are well respected but doesn't mean they hold the same place generally as they did back when your dad had stuff. McIntosh is nice but IMO way too expensive for what it is unless you really like blue vu meters.

What other speakers have you auditioned?

 

[slipperybidness]

My 2 cents--Don't even bother with any 2-ch HT bypass on pre-amps. Waste of $ and adds unnecessary complexity to the system.

 

[Mangoman]

My TV is the Samsung ku6300. Sorry. I always say plasma for any flat screen it seems. (Am I showing my age) it's Led.

My current speakers: all klipsch
Fronts:
Rf15
Sub: rw 10
Center Rc10
Rears RS10 (I think)

Demoed these speakers:

The BWs mentioned
A couple Martin logans. Nice but big
Sonus Faber book shelf ones.
Sorry about not being entirely specific. But I do recall everything being upwards of 5k.

What I liked about the BWs were the soundstage, how crisp they were and the vocals were just outstanding. Something that delivers that sonic crispness and separates everything so you hear everyone's voices and all the instruments is what I am after. Hearing how the music was meant to be heard from that mastering of the final cut. I do think I may need more power. So what ever route I go, I'd at least like a pure 2.1 signal for listening.

Hope that gives a little more insight.

And thanks for all the awesome replies so far.

 

[lovinthehd]

More LCD than LED I was wondering if you had a prototype 4k plasma or something there I might be older than you, too When did you get your first turntable?

Why do you think you'll need more power, you have high spl requirements? Big room? Can't help you with the B&M brand speakers much anyways, personally I'd be looking at Salk, Philharmonic and Ascend. For sub SVS, Hsu, Rythmik, Power Sound Audio, Seaton, JTR, Funk. You'll need bass management if you want 2.1, there's no "pure" 2.1 signal out there; avrs are a good way to go and if you get pre-outs then you can always add a power amp if needed.

 

[Pogre]

I've never been a big fan of B&W. A lot of the crossovers in their speakers are intentionally designed to have a certain sound (read warm, not a flat response, not accurate). I'm with HD in wondering why salesfolk push B&W so often. I'd at least look into his suggestions. They're some of the best speakers you can buy for the money.

I know what it's like to have your heart set on something, then hear it might not be the best. I really thought I needed a bigger amp for better sound. I ended up putting my money into better speakers and haven't looked back. These guys really know their stuff and I think you can do much better for speakers in the same or even a lower price range.

I say upgrade your speakers (with a huge emphasis on the sub(s) and keep your current receiver for now. I think you'll be surprised how it sounds.

 

[Irvrobinson]

I'm with HD in wondering why salesfolk push B&W so often.

Some of the best gross margins in the consumer loudspeaker industry, and they're an easy sell due to good brand reputation and recognition. I think the fit and finish of their high-end products is very good, which makes them easy to present in a showroom. I also believe that the nature of their sales process, mostly B&M showrooms, explains their frequency balance. (Though TLSGuy's impression of the latest 80xD series gives me hope they changed their focus to accuracy.)

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

My TV is the Samsung ku6300. Sorry. I always say plasma for any flat screen it seems. (Am I showing my age) it's Led.

My current speakers: all klipsch
Fronts:
Rf15
Sub: rw 10
Center Rc10
Rears RS10 (I think)

Demoed these speakers:

The BWs mentioned
A couple Martin logans. Nice but big
Sonus Faber book shelf ones.
Sorry about not being entirely specific. But I do recall everything being upwards of 5k.

What I liked about the BWs were the soundstage, how crisp they were and the vocals were just outstanding. Something that delivers that sonic crispness and separates everything so you hear everyone's voices and all the instruments is what I am after. Hearing how the music was meant to be heard from that mastering of the final cut. I do think I may need more power. So what ever route I go, I'd at least like a pure 2.1 signal for listening.

Hope that gives a little more insight.

And thanks for all the awesome replies so far.

As I suspected, you should upgrade all fronts and definitely the sub.
http://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-rw-10d-powered-subwoofer-reviewed-1/?page=2
"The RW-10d sounded a bit heavy and slow across music material, especially classical and jazz material."
since you have smaller room and if you go with Phil's Slims - you may not need a sub at all

 

[Mangoman]

As I suspected, you should upgrade all fronts and definitely the sub.
http://hometheaterreview.com/klipsch-rw-10d-powered-subwoofer-reviewed-1/?page=2
"The RW-10d sounded a bit heavy and slow across music material, especially classical and jazz material."
since you have smaller room and if you go with Phil's Slims - you may not need a sub at all

Thanks for all the great input. Those Philharmonic Slims look awesome and the price point is solid. Especially coming from those new B&Ws and I like supporting the small business owner.

Now to find some rears and a center. I'll probably go with one (maybe two) SVS subs to round things out. I still may upgrade my receiver.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Thanks for all the great input. Those Philharmonic Slims look awesome and the price point is solid. Especially coming from those new B&Ws and I like supporting the small business owner.

Now to find some rears and a center. I'll probably go with one (maybe two) SVS subs to round things out. I still may upgrade my receiver.

Dennis has matching MTM center. You could continue to use existing Klipsch for surrounds. SVS is one good option, but don't forget to compare it to Rythmics, HSU and PSA

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

B&W & McIntosh probably have the best RESALE value, but I don't think they have the best Sound Quality (SQ).

Of course, the speakers that have the best SQ are the speakers you PREFER the best, not the speakers the sales guys or others like.

You already mentioned used speakers, which is probably for the best to save money.

Are are correct that the speakers are more important than the amps/preamps.

At the same time, you also want a great amp/preamp. They don't have to be "separates" like preamp + amp. That's because separates won't sound any better in my experience. Of course, some guys will duly disagree. But let's not get into that amp debate.

I think a good Denon/Marantz/Yamaha AVR on sale for about $1,000, MSRP about $1,500 - $2,000, would be a great center piece. For example, the Denon X4200 was on sale for $800 and Denon 4520 was on sale for about $1,000 on Amazon and Fry's a few months ago.

For speakers, I would open up other possibilities: B&W, KEF, RBH, PSB, Revel, and others. Compare them if possible and buy the ones that sound the best.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

B&W & McIntosh probably have the best RESALE value, but I don't think they have the best Sound Quality (SQ).

Of course, the speakers that have the best SQ are the speakers you PREFER the best, not the speakers the sales guys or others like.

You already mentioned used speakers, which is probably for the best to save money.

Are are correct that the speakers are more important than the amps/preamps.

At the same time, you also want a great amp/preamp. They don't have to be "separates" like preamp + amp. That's because separates won't sound any better in my experience. Of course, some guys will duly disagree. But let's not get into that amp debate.

I think a good Denon/Marantz/Yamaha AVR on sale for about $1,000, MSRP about $1,500 - $2,000, would be a great center piece. For example, the Denon X4200 was on sale for $800 and Denon 4520 was on sale for about $1,000 on Amazon and Fry's a few months ago.

For speakers, I would open up other possibilities: B&W, KEF, RBH, PSB, Revel, and others. Compare them if possible and buy the ones that sound the best.

ADTG, You did notice that OP already had Denon 2310CI avr. I think it's pretty decent foundation

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

ADTG, You did notice that OP already had Denon 2310CI avr. I think it's better decent foundation

Yeah, the Denon 2000 series AVR is decent enough.

But if he's thinking B&W 802D, he must be thinking much bigger and more expensive.

So I'm thinking the Denon 4000 series is probably minimum for him. The Denon 4520 may be a little older, but is more equivalent to the Denon 6000-7000 series.

 

[Mangoman]

Ha! I don't think I have enough space for an 802. I was looking more at the 805.

The Philharmonic Slims might be as big as I can go. Those do look, and the reviews are, very excellent.

 

[mpitogo2000]

BTW I would second getting the McIntosh MA5200. For music I was previously running Polk Audio LSi25 with a Denon AVR4802R in Pure Direct (No longer an HT receiver). While the Denon is rated at 125w/ch into 8 ohms the Denon couldn't adequately power the Polk and would occasionally go into protection. I suspect it couldn't handle the 4ohm load. The McIntosh on the other hand is conservatively rated at 100w/ch into 8ohms. Before buying I contacted McIntosh and asked about powering 4ohm loads MA5200 and they confirmed it will work. I have yet to trip its Power Guard and I don't regularly listen at very high volumes. My dealer said they sell many of these and the power exceeds the conservative rating.

Main sources for both are optical spdif Apple Airport Express for Airplay, CD Player, Echo Dot and a Turntable. The Mc sounds much more lively and has a decent built in phono preamp.

(The Made in Japan 39lbs Denon was not a bad HT receiver, it ran many years powering 7.1 Polk RT55,CS400,FX500 but these are 8ohm and never triggered the protection circuit)

Also regarding B&W I've auditioned a range of from the entry to the 800 D3. I also used the same vinyl for reference and I was taken aback on the 800 D3 not quite sure what I was hearing but not what I expected. Everyone is different but I thought I heard too much midrange. I'm not sure if it was equalized that way, the demo room response or was the MC on the MT-10, it was going through a c47 and mc452.

 

[dafirst]

With my experience, Receivers, Amps & Preamps do make a difference. Having used Pioneer Vsx-520, Rotel 1068, Sony Ta-e9000es, Lexicon Mc-12, Arcam avp700, Sony ep9es, Lexicon Mc-1, Yamaha receiver, I did notice difference in sound. Speakers are definitely a plus but what's feeding them too makes a difference. "Car tires are the ones that run but due to engine capacity, some runs faster than others". So the components are the engine and the tires are the speakers IMO. Not necessarily spending too much but the right receiver will bring the best out of the speakers.
My Speakers are Klipsch Rp-280f
Rp-450 C
Rp-160m surrounds.
I was playing only 2 channel without a Sub and had a call from my Landlord that 4 neighbors called that I should lower my volume especially the bass. And was only @ 74db. I'm not a bass guy. Get good speakers and also better audio equipment and you will be happy.

 

[PENG]

The 4802's protection tripped while the MA5200 wouldn't mainly because the McIntosh's power guard functions in a different way than Denon's. To preserve all the dynamic in music though, I would take the 4802 any time. Now of course we are talking about two channel applications here where the Denon only has to feed 2 speakers. If one listens to music that does not have a lot of short peaks, or compressed, than the MA5200 for sure will win because the 4802 is going to have trouble powering large 4 ohm speakers such as the LSI 25 on sustained basis when higher spl (e.g. reference) in medium large rooms. When compared apple to apple, for classical music including large symphony orchestra's, I dare say if the 100W Mc can do it then the Denon 4802 will do better in terms of power requirements. SQ is a different thing because it is subjective and Placebo rules in that regard. Just my 0.00002 cents.

 

[PENG]

With my experience, Receivers, Amps & Preamps do make a difference. Having used Pioneer Vsx-520, Rotel 1068, Sony Ta-e9000es, Lexicon Mc-12, Arcam avp700, Sony ep9es, Lexicon Mc-1, Yamaha receiver, I did notice difference in sound. Speakers are definitely a plus but what's feeding them too makes a difference. "Car tires are the ones that run but due to engine capacity, some runs faster than others". So the components are the engine and the tires are the speakers IMO. Not necessarily spending too much but the right receiver will bring the best out of the speakers.
My Speakers are Klipsch Rp-280f
Rp-450 C
Rp-160m surrounds.
I was playing only 2 channel without a Sub and had a call from my Landlord that 4 neighbors called that I should lower my volume especially the bass. And was only @ 74db. I'm not a bass guy. Get good speakers and also better audio equipment and you will be happy.

This topic has been discussed many times, there is no consensus, probably never will. It is better to say it is a matter of opinion, that way we all can get along and do our own thing.