Where to spend the dollar?

[Tmart]

It appears my SuperCube 1 is finally giving up the ghost. Getting some crackling sounds from it when things get loud or the frequency drops too low. I've looked through some posts and this looks like the equivalent of the blue screen of death. I will try and replace the cord, but I'm not too hopeful.
Assuming this is the end for my little friend, I was hoping to find something a little beefier and more powerful as a replacement. More specifically, I wanted to see where my money would be best spent.

I could go dual subwoofers with a budget of about 1200 to 1500 or should I go with a single sub in the 15-inch driver range and start moving towards a 4K solution for my projector/ home theater.
Hsu ULS or VTF 15 and svs pb or psa 15V would appear to fit the bill and seemed well reviewed on this site and others. Open to all ideas for my approx 4500 cubic foot space. (12×40×8)
Currently running:
Onkyo TX-NR1009 with Klipsch RF83's and matching center.
Surround klipsch RS42 dipole
Surround back ceiling mount Klipsch cdt 3650
Ben Q 1070 on 92" fixed screen.
Samsung bdp 3600
Roku 4

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[TheWarrior]

It appears my SuperCube 1 is finally giving up the ghost. Getting some crackling sounds from it when things get loud or the frequency drops too low. I've looked through some posts and this looks like the equivalent of the blue screen of death. I will try and replace the cord, but I'm not too hopeful.
Assuming this is the end for my little friend, I was hoping to find something a little beefier and more powerful as a replacement. More specifically, I wanted to see where my money would be best spent.

I could go dual subwoofers with a budget of about 1200 to 1500 or should I go with a single sub in the 15-inch driver range and start moving towards a 4K solution for my projector/ home theater.
Hsu ULS or VTF 15 and svs pb or psa 15V would appear to fit the bill and seemed well reviewed on this site and others. Open to all ideas for my approx 4500 cubic foot space. (12×40×8)
Currently running:
Onkyo TX-NR1009 with Klipsch RF83's and matching center.
Surround klipsch RS42 dipole
Surround back ceiling mount Klipsch cdt 3650
Ben Q 1070 on 92" fixed screen.
Samsung bdp 3600
Roku 4

Thanks in advance for any ideas!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Assuming you share this experience with more than one person, I would get at least two subs.

4K is not spreading quickly, so early adopters are getting stuck with great, shiny new technology, with which there is little content.

 

[Tmart]

Okay thanks for the reply. This makes a lot of sense. I would assume the subs will give me more bang for the buck (some pun intended). And it looks like the cost for True 4K is fairly prohibitive.
Any strong feelings on which sub to go after?
Also, I have one outlet with surge protector running most all my gear. Is it time to run another circuit to the breaker?

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[TheWarrior]

Okay thanks for the reply. This makes a lot of sense. I would assume the subs will give me more bang for the buck (some pun intended). And it looks like the cost for True 4K is fairly prohibitive.
Any strong feelings on which sub to go after?
Also, I have one outlet with surge protector running most all my gear. Is it time to run another circuit to the breaker?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

HSU makes some great products, I would also recommend looking at Rythmik. The sealed 15HP is a real performer in a relatively small cabinet, but one would consume your budget. I've been less than impressed with PSA's - building a 15" sub that struggles below 30 hz seems pretty redundant to me.

I guess my point is do not concern yourself with driver diameter, it has nothing to do with anything when it comes to frequency response. SVS also builds great products, and I know they as well as others offer multi-sub discounts when buying more than one. Companies that offer that discount should definitely be at the top of your list.

There's a lot that goes in to how much a 15amp circuit can handle. You're definitely getting close, if not at the limit already, to what a single circuit *should* be in charge of. Hopefully your home allows easy access so you can add as many circuits as you need. My living room theater is over a crawlspace, so adding another circuit was a breeze!

 

[Tmart]

Good for you on the crawlspace! Not quite so lucky in my basement, but can be accomplished.
Thanks again for your advice!

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[KEW]

I've been less than impressed with PSA's - building a 15" sub that struggles below 30 hz seems pretty redundant to me.

The 15V is the current revision of the XV15 that Josh Ricci tested.
Josh Ricci never mentions it struggling below 30Hz!

Here is his concluding paragraph of the Measurements section:

CEA-2010 burst output testing indicates that the XV-15 is capable of good output down into the 16-20Hz range in the typical room and produces commendable output from 30-80Hz for a subwoofer in this price class. In room CEA-2010 testing showed that the XV-15 was even capable of some passing output at the 12.5Hz band. A pair of XV-15's should be a quite capable system in even a large room.

From the Ricci reviews I have read, "a quite capable system" would not be something he would say about a sub that struggles under 30Hz.

Here is his concluding paragraph of the System Overview section:

In use the XV-15 proved to be quite capable and well rounded as indicated by the measurements and the listening sessions with it, which shows that the folks at PowerSound have a good grasp on how to make a well rounded cost effective subwoofer. Additionally PSA publishes quite a few measurements on their own subwoofers. The Data-Bass CEA-2010 results were within about a dB of PSA's own internal results and the other measurements corroborated each other well. The only misbehavior noted with the XV-15 is possible port chuffing when driven heavily near 20Hz and some pumping of the limiter in this same scenario. However both of these were only noted with test signals in an outdoor environment and never in room with typical content. Otherwise the XV-15 behaved flawlessly. Maximum output for this price range especially in the deep bass is much better than most subs under $1000, however 2 units will likely be wanted to provide headroom for very large rooms or users who like the bass hot and loud.

The newer 15V costs $950 (as opposed to the XV15 which was $800). AFAIK, the main change is upgrading the amp from BASH to a Made in America ICE amp.

Do you have knowledge that the newer 15V design compromised the XV15 design?

Edit: To further make the point that this is not a "struggling" sub, here are Ricci's comments from the Audioholics review:

The Power Sound XV15 easily meets the required output thresholds to receive the Audioholics Bassaholic Large Room rating, but was just a little short of making the more difficult Extreme room rating. It would have been the least expensive unit to do so by far. The Large room rating indicates that this sub is recommended as maintaining adequate headroom in rooms or spaces of between 3,000 to 5,000 cubic feet and/or for users who usually listen at moderate to high volume levels.

 

[Tmart]

Thanks for the info from the review. I think I had seen that review previously and it sounded like a capable sub for the price. The only other one I've come across to consider is the OutlawX12. Thoughts?

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[KEW]

Thanks for the info from the review. I think I had seen that review previously and it sounded like a capable sub for the price. The only other one I've come across to consider is the OutlawX12. Thoughts?

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I really can't offer much, I have heard neither the V15 nor the X12.
If you are in a position of deciding between two X12's and one V15, I am a big fan of dual subs and would go with dual X12's. However, if you listen alone from one position in the room, you won't get teh biggest benefit of dual subs which is smoothing the response throughout the room.
I would give PSA a call and tell Tom that you are looking at the X12. There is a good chance that he has researched it. IME, he will not trash-talk the competition! More to the point, he may have a XV15 or 2 laying around that he has not gotten around to listing on his b-stock outlet store that you might get a good deal on!

 

[Tmart]

Nice idea! Will do and thanks

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[TheWarrior]

The 15V is the current revision of the XV15 that Josh Ricci tested.
Josh Ricci never mentions it struggling below 30Hz!

Here is his concluding paragraph of the Measurements section:


From the Ricci reviews I have read, "a quite capable system" would not be something he would say about a sub that struggles under 30Hz.

Here is his concluding paragraph of the System Overview section:


The newer 15V costs $950 (as opposed to the XV15 which was $800). AFAIK, the main change is upgrading the amp from BASH to a Made in America ICE amp.

Do you have knowledge that the newer 15V design compromised the XV15 design?

Edit: To further make the point that this is not a "struggling" sub, here are Ricci's comments from the Audioholics review:

The XV is vented, I was referring to the sealed model, which in Ricci's testing of the XS-15SE the tests were distortion limited up to 30 hz in room. Even the JL E112 measures better!


(from the hotlinks, scroll down to the tabs and select static graphs)

 

[shadyJ]

The XV is vented, I was referring to the sealed model, which in Ricci's testing of the XS-15SE the tests were distortion limited up to 30 hz in room. Even the JL E112 measures better!


(from the hotlinks, scroll down to the tabs and select static graphs)

Not many sealed subs deals with stuff at 30 Hz and below very well. Unless you get an 18" with a lot of excursion, I wouldn't be expecting too much of a sealed sub in deep bass. The E112 is substantially more expensive than the XS-15SE anyway, so it's not so surprising that it behaves better in deep bass.

 

[TheWarrior]

Not many sealed subs deals with stuff at 30 Hz and below very well. Unless you get an 18" with a lot of excursion, I wouldn't be expecting too much of a sealed sub in deep bass. The E112 is substantially more expensive than the XS-15SE anyway, so it's not so surprising that it behaves better in deep bass.

Absolutely. I referenced the JL as that is a sub both Kurt and I kinda 'wrote-off' despite it's positive reviews after listening in different rooms. But the measurements tell of a much more capable sub in the JL than the PSA.

 

[shadyJ]

Absolutely. I referenced the JL as that is a sub both Kurt and I kinda 'wrote-off' despite it's positive reviews after listening in different rooms. But the measurements tell of a much more capable sub in the JL than the PSA.

Nothing wrong with it according to those measurements. The problem was probably placement and calibration, as it so often is with subwoofers.

 

[TheWarrior]

Nothing wrong with it according to those measurements. The problem was probably placement and calibration, as it so often is with subwoofers.

Sure, if you're ok with a subwoofer that can't reproduce below 30 hz as a fundamental and you consider higher order harmonics to be accurate reproduction. The PSA's were wonderful for mid bass, but they just rumble when asked to play below 30 hz. The JL's were only mildly better. But again, I reference them because we listened to them in the same rooms, with the same placement.

 

[shadyJ]

Sure, if you're ok with a subwoofer that can't reproduce below 30 hz as a fundamental and you consider higher order harmonics to be accurate reproduction. The PSA's were wonderful for mid bass, but they just rumble when asked to play below 30 hz. The JL's were only mildly better. But again, I reference them because we listened to them in the same rooms, with the same placement.

You ain't getting deep bass out of a small sub unless it has huge excursion abilities and monster amplification, and that costs big bucks (and it will weigh a ton). You have to judge these subs in context, and the context here is size. Most music does not dig to 30 Hz, and the distortion behavior of the E112 isn't bad until you push it to its limit, at least above 30 Hz.

 

[KEW]

The XV is vented, I was referring to the sealed model, which in Ricci's testing of the XS-15SE the tests were distortion limited up to 30 hz in room. Even the JL E112 measures better!


(from the hotlinks, scroll down to the tabs and select static graphs)

Okay, I needed to correct that as you made that statement as generic to PSA 15" subs and the OP specifically mentioned the vented PSA sub!

I don't understand your calling out PSA on this. If your basis is distortion limited below a frequency, the HSU ULS-15 mk II is technically (per the resolution of the test data) distortion limited below 40Hz:
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/hsu-uls-15-mk2/measurements

So, by that standard the Hsu ULS is sugnificantly less capable than the XS15se! I think the reality is these are pretty similar and competitive subs.

To further make the point, by that standard, the ULS 15 mkII is significantly less capable than the SVS SB12 nsd!
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/sb12-nsd-subwoofer/sb12-nsd-measurements

I don't think being distortion limited is that good of a standard to use for sub capability. I would believe the output is the intended important aspect of this measurement, not whether it was limited by distortion or power.

I agree that if you are all about HT LFE, a vented sub probably makes more sense, but PSA has pretty good equivalency with any of the other major players. Whether they represent the best value to you depends on your specific priorities.

 

[TheWarrior]

Okay, I needed to correct that as you were made that statement as generic to PSA 15" subs and the OP specifically mentioned the vented PSA sub!

I don't understand your calling out PSA on this. If your basis is distortion limited below a frequency, the HSU ULS-15 mk II is technically (per the resolution of the test data) distortion limited below 40Hz:
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/hsu-uls-15-mk2/measurements

So, by that standard the Hsu ULS is sugnificantly less capable than the XS15se! I think the reality is these are pretty similar and competitive subs.

To further make the point, by that standard, the ULS 15 mkII is significantly less capable than the SVS SB12 nsd!
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/sb12-nsd-subwoofer/sb12-nsd-measurements

I don't think being distortion limited is that good of a standard to use for sub capability. I would believe the output is the intended important aspect of this measurement, not whether it was limited by distortion or power.

I agree that if you are all about HT LFE, a vented sub probably makes more sense, but PSA has pretty good equivalency with any of the other major players. Whether they represent the best value to you depends on your specific priorities.

This got so far from the OP that I forgot they were looking at vented all along, making all of this moot.

I'll shut up now...

 

[shadyJ]

Okay, I needed to correct that as you were made that statement as generic to PSA 15" subs and the OP specifically mentioned the vented PSA sub!

I don't understand your calling out PSA on this. If your basis is distortion limited below a frequency, the HSU ULS-15 mk II is technically (per the resolution of the test data) distortion limited below 40Hz:
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/hsu-uls-15-mk2/measurements

So, by that standard the Hsu ULS is sugnificantly less capable than the XS15se! I think the reality is these are pretty similar and competitive subs.

To further make the point, by that standard, the ULS 15 mkII is significantly less capable than the SVS SB12 nsd!
http://www.audioholics.com/subwoofer-reviews/sb12-nsd-subwoofer/sb12-nsd-measurements

I don't think being distortion limited is that good of a standard to use for sub capability. I would believe the output is the intended important aspect of this measurement, not whether it was limited by distortion or power.

I agree that if you are all about HT LFE, a vented sub probably makes more sense, but PSA has pretty good equivalency with any of the other major players. Whether they represent the best value to you depends on your specific priorities.

I agree that you have to judge distortion with respect to output levels. That should be obvious. If you want awesome max distortion measurements, all you have to do is severely underpower a driver, and set the limiter to knock off input voltage before amplifier clipping. 'Distortion limited' with respect to CEA-2010 doesn't mean a whole lot in terms of audibility, it has more significance as a point where the driver is stressing and is traveling past Xmax. In terms of audibility, it is better than a simple THD metric, but distortion can still be grossly audible and have a passing CEA-2010 measurement.

I don't agree that the XS15se has parity with the ULS. The measurements don't support that for the most part. The ULS is a beast, and is pound-for-pound one of the most powerful if not the most powerful sub out there. The 'pound' part is important when you have to haul it back and forth from a test site multiple times! I would have bought my review unit if I wasn't already inundated with subs.

 

[KEW]

I really appreciate Josh Ricci's in room CEA2010 measurements side by side with his outdoor CEA2010 measurements. I know that I cannot assume I will get the same in-room response as he does, but I would expect his in-room response to be a closer indication of my own in-room response than the outdoor measurements.
For example, the SVS SB13-Ultra has a max passsing SPL of 84dB at 10Hz outside, but Josh measured 101.5dB at 10Hz indoors!

 

[shadyJ]

I really appreciate Josh Ricci's in room CEA2010 measurements side by side with his outdoor CEA2010 measurements. I know that I cannot assume I will get the same in-room response as he does, but I would expect his in-room response to be a closer indication of my own in-room response than the outdoor measurements.
For example, the SVS SB13-Ultra has a max passsing SPL of 84dB at 10Hz outside, but Josh measured 101.5dB at 10Hz indoors!

I would be wary of 10 Hz measurements, although those certainly sound plausible. What happens for his indoor testing is that pressure vessel gain boosts the deepest frequencies way up without applying as much boost to the harmonics, since, naturally, they are much shorter wavelengths. That is great for CEA-2010 measurements since they have stricter distortion thresholds as the harmonics increase. However, until you actually measure your own subwoofer's response, I wouldn't make any assumptions about its performance in your room. If you are sitting in a null, a CEA-2010 measurement could actually be worse at the null frequency than it would be in a groundplane setting.