when to upgrade to separates

J

jalesi

Junior Audioholic
My current set up is:

Onkyo TX-SR805
AV123 Statik's open baffle fronts
AV123 Statik's center
AV123 X Omni rears
MFW 15 subwoofer

For a 5.1 set up. I am looking to upgrade my receiver and the deals on the Yamaha RXA 2020 are pretty sweet right now ($1000). It is more than I was going to spend, but the advantage over the 1020 is worth the extra $200 for me. I've always wanted a yamaha receiver. I've had an ancient 3.0 Onkyo receiver, a Denon 5.1, which is in the basement being used by my brother. And of course the above Onkyo.
I was looking at possibly going Outlaw or Emotive/Sherbourn for preamp/processor and amps. I mostly watch movies and sports and I'm getting back into music. I have a Music Hall turntable ready to deploy.

The short question is, to 2020 or go separates?

Thanks in advance for any advice you can give.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
For $1000 its a tough call, what does the 2020 have that you like so much? Are you going to go 9.2 in the future? What features are you wanting over the 805?I personally wouldn't ever spend more than $500 on an avr again, I learned my lesson {yamaha taught it to me, lol}, 1 they are outdated fast, 2 they like to break when you spend a lot of money on them, 3 even if they work after 3 years they are almost worthless, ect ect ect.. I like the idea of a decent avr with preouts for around $450, then an xpa3 or 3 outlaw 2200's ect to power my front 3 and use the avr to power the surrounds...

To go with a pre pro and amp $1000 is a tough budget if you want around 200 watts per channel, but the xpa3 is only around $700 {$620 b stock}, and the denon 3311 DENON AVR-3311CI 7.2-Channel Network Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less ...

I alos like the high end denons over the yammy, you can get the 4311 cheap and a few others for under $1000.... DENON AVR-4311CI 9.2 Channel Network Home Theater Receiver | Accessories4less

If you just have a $1000 to spend why not a nice 2 ch music only system? That would be a nice xmass present to yourself..
 
J

jalesi

Junior Audioholic
Great questions. And the short honest answer is, I have a thing for electronics, it has been awhile since I purchased any and I figure now might be a good time to upgrade. I just upgraded my TV, so why not the receiver part?
I like the air play option and the ability to upgrade to 7 or 9.1 in the future. I like the zone part, but now that I think about it, I wouldn't be doing that soon. Best case would be running speakers outside for my back porch shenanigans. I do like the ability that if I upgrade to a 4k TV, I will not have to upgrade again.
I do like the music idea, but my thoughts were to upgrade the main HT and move the Onkyo into the bedroom or the office and use it mainly for music. I then thought that I could go with pre/pro and amps and get good equipment a little at a time. For example, I could get the Outlaw 975 or the UMC 200, and the UPA 700. Or better yet, I might could stretch my budget for the XPA5.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Well in that case I can tell you I love my xpa5, that thing runs for 20 hours a day and never skips a beat, lol... {mine is gen 1 so gen 2 is even better}...

But instead of going with the umc200 {which I have and like} maybe find a decent avr with preouts, you will be happier in the long run, I think...
 
J

jalesi

Junior Audioholic
I haven't thought of that route. I just have to be careful to make sure that I am not running full speed downhill into a brick wall. I want to upgrade, but want to be smart about it.
 
G

Grador

Audioholic Field Marshall
The other advantage of going the AVR with pre-out rout is that you can try out the AVR alone to see if that does it for you. If you determine that it doesn't, you can add an amp while still having your initial purchase be worthwhile. Most pre-pros will cost you as much as an AVR anyway.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
If I were going to spend $1000 on a receiver or its equivalent right now, I would go with the Yamaha RX-A2020. If you have some "legacy" sources (i.e., old, outdated sources), its video up-conversion is quite good. It also has a wealth of inputs and outputs and features. If you don't need any of the extra features (including the really good video up-conversion), then going with a less expensive Yamaha would make sense, as receivers do not hold their value over time. That, by the way, is a reason to wait until you really, really need a new one, and not get one before it is necessary. Really, they are like computers: You don't want to buy one now unless you need it now; you will get more ability next year for your money.

It is a good idea to get a separate amplifier if and only if your speakers are difficult to drive and would benefit from more power that you cannot reasonably get in a receiver. Even then, it usually is a good idea to buy a receiver with preamp outputs instead of a preamp, because usually the receiver will be cheaper and have more features.


Another important consideration is reliability. Judging by complaints people make online, Yamaha is about as reliable as you can get. It does not matter how great something is supposed to be, if it does not work right and gives you trouble.
 
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J

jalesi

Junior Audioholic
Good points, but I have always grouped receivers and electronics in general into the they'll never hold their value. They are like computers, what you pay $600 for today will be $300 in a few months. I can't future proof my HT, but I would like to possibly make this a purchase that I don't have to repeat anytime soon. I seem to be on the 5-10 year update plan. Having said that, my record player was purchased about 1 year ago and hasn't left the box. A long story on that one.
I can see advantages to both sides where separates offer more options in equipment, but not all of the bells and whistles in a quality package like an AVR does.
 
psbfan9

psbfan9

Audioholic Samurai
The other advantage of going the AVR with pre-out rout is that you can try out the AVR alone to see if that does it for you. If you determine that it doesn't, you can add an amp while still having your initial purchase be worthwhile. Most pre-pros will cost you as much as an AVR anyway.
+1.
I would suggest the Yamaha A830. And, as Grador said above, if you think you need to add an amp later you can.
At $849.00 this is a great amp. I'm very happy with my A830.

Yamaha RX-A830 AVENTAGE 7.2 Channel Network AV Receiver Preview | Audioholics
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
I think these are all good suggestions, especially getting the receiver first and then debating the amplifier.

My experience has been, long term, it's best to go with separates. It allows you to buy good amplifiers (which last a really long time), and then just swap out the pre-processor. Again, that's my experience (and my budget).

Buy great stuff, slowly, and with a plan of where you want to be. You end up saving a lot that way, if your hobby is a long term one hehe.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Good points, but I have always grouped receivers and electronics in general into the they'll never hold their value. They are like computers, what you pay $600 for today will be $300 in a few months. I can't future proof my HT, but I would like to possibly make this a purchase that I don't have to repeat anytime soon. I seem to be on the 5-10 year update plan. Having said that, my record player was purchased about 1 year ago and hasn't left the box. A long story on that one.
I can see advantages to both sides where separates offer more options in equipment, but not all of the bells and whistles in a quality package like an AVR does.
Some parts don't need to be replaced when new features come out. Speakers, for example, can be used no matter what new format is developed, and so they are a very good place to put a lot of money. (Also, they affect the sound quality more than anything else, so you should be putting most of your money in them if you are wanting good sound for your money.)

I personally have over $6000 worth (retail price, not resale value) of speakers in my home theater, and I NEVER plan on replacing them.

If you need power amps for your particular speakers, they, too, do not need to be replaced when new features become available. They still will drive your speakers no matter what new features come out, so they, if needed, are a good investment. For my unpowered subwoofers, I use a power amp, and I NEVER plan on replacing it.

Obviously, something could fail, and then I might have to either repair or replace, but otherwise, there is no need, and so those things may be considered permanent. In the case of speakers, they tend to be very reliable, and if not abused, many can last a lifetime.

Receivers (and preamp/processors), on the other hand, are things where new features are added, and those can make all the difference. So there is a good chance that you will want to replace it in a few years, though how many depends on your particular needs and what, exactly, you buy. But this is where the value drops terribly; someone can still use your 10-year-old speakers and power amp for a modern system, but not your 10-year-old A/V receiver or preamp. So old surround receivers are just not worth much.

That said, what you should get depends on your finances and your needs. Some receivers, like the Yamaha RX-A2020 that you can currently get for $1000, have better video upconversion than the lower models, so if that is needed, then going cheaper will not work. But if you do not need that (or any of its other advantages), then going with a cheaper model makes sense. Eventually, you will probably want to replace whatever receiver you buy now (though I do not know what, exactly, one will need in the future that the RX-A2020 cannot do, as it can pass a 4k signal and even upconvert video to 4k; but rest assured, manufacturers are working on adding things that people will feel the need to get).
 
E

English210

Audioholic
I would go with the Yamaha 2020 @ $1000. Good bang for buck, and will do fine with your current speakers. If you need/want more power, then add an amp, and then later (if needed) upgrade the processor. I got a 3010 on a closeout for $600 a year ago, and it replaced a Yamaha receiver I've had since the 80's (still worked, except radio, and the display was dead). I did benefit from an additional amp, and now I have a good one. If the need arises to upgrade the pre/pro, then I'll deal with that then. The 2020 you can get looks like a good deal, although there are those here with very strong opinions on whether different brands are 'better' -ignore them IMO, as the most imprtant disclaimer is YMMV!!!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If you use subs, it would behoove you to try out the Audyssey XT32 Dynamic EQ.

In Direct mode, I think all the AVR & pre-pro will sound about the same. But not all Sub EQs are created equal. You would have to experience it to believe it.

Worth trying out the Sub EQ from Denon vs. Yamaha.
 
E

English210

Audioholic
If you use subs, it would behoove you to try out the Audyssey XT32 Dynamic EQ.

In Direct mode, I think all the AVR & pre-pro will sound about the same. But not all Sub EQs are created equal. You would have to experience it to believe it.

Worth trying out the Sub EQ from Denon vs. Yamaha.
Good point - I'm not sold on the YPAO in the 3010 I have.
 
J

jalesi

Junior Audioholic
The Denon x4000 is a contender, and I've had a Denon before, it's still running strong. It's such a great debate as there are a thousand different ways to go. In the long run, I see myself with separates, but I don't have a timeline on that. The one thing about receivers are I always recycle them by using them in another room or give them to my brother as I upgrade. My most immediate vision is upgrading my HT and starting one in my bedroom with my old Onkyo and a set of AV123 Rockets that I have.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
For $1000 its a tough call, what does the 2020 have that you like so much? Are you going to go 9.2 in the future? What features are you wanting over the 805?I personally wouldn't ever spend more than $500 on an avr again, I learned my lesson {yamaha taught it to me, lol}, 1 they are outdated fast, 2 they like to break when you spend a lot of money on them, 3 even if they work after 3 years they are almost worthless, ect ect ect.. .
Wow really? You don't buy electronics as an investment. Everyone knows that. I guess there's a first for everyone.

My old Yamaha RX-V1800 is still going strong after 5 years and despite some of the upgrades like Apple AirPlay ( like I could give a crap about what that company sells in terms of compressed audio) and networking, I'm not left wanting/needing an upgrade for the latest feature set. If you think AVRs get out date fast, most pre/pros leaving the stable to be sold for the first time are already out of date. Just sayin
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
In the long run, I see myself with separates, but I don't have a timeline on that.
Just buy separates NOW and get it out of your system already for crying out loud! :D

Just do it.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
You can stream Lossless M4A audio files to AirPlay.
I prefer my networking and streaming services to be outside of the AVR via a ROKU or WD device. Its cheaper than having that stuff embedded into the price of the AVR.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Wow really? You don't buy electronics as an investment. Everyone knows that. I guess there's a first for everyone.

My old Yamaha RX-V1800 is still going strong after 5 years and despite some of the upgrades like Apple AirPlay ( like I could give a crap about what that company sells in terms of compressed audio) and networking, I'm not left wanting/needing an upgrade for the latest feature set. If you think AVRs get out date fast, most pre/pros leaving the stable to be sold for the first time are already out of date. Just sayin
I was speaking comparatively, for example your v1800 cost around $1100 new? Its worth under $200 now, If you bought a an XPA5 in 2008 it would have cost you under $700 and rite now its will sell on ebay for around $600, and if you read my posts you will see I don't think pre pro's are the answer, I bought my emo pros because I got great deals on them, but the better buy is a refurbed or left over avr with preouts...

As far as not knowing electronics aren't an investment, I guess you and me think about money differently, because ANYTHING I spend my money on, is an investment, I expect a return in some way, sure if I buy food or clothes, my return is nourishment and being clothed but when I purchase tangible goods like a car my where my return is transportation I still have the expectation of some type of monetary return when I am done with it... With something like electronics where I upgrade often I want the equipment I am trading in to be worth enough to off set the balance of the new purchase, so I try to buy materials with high resale values, I incorporate this into all my spending, when I bought my wife her suv the deciding factor to get an unlimited rubicon was its high resale value, if you don't take resale "worth" into consideration when making a purchase you are silly or have way too much money. Just sayin ;) ....
 

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