When to Add External Amplification to an A/V Receiver

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What did I say that's a hypothesis?

There is a valid question about whether or not the variability is audible

I was talking about all the amp debates in general.

 

[Bryceo]

Never ;p nah jokes I had one in my bedroom system till I worked out my avr was smart enough to do it

 

[3db]

Let's start a poll to see how many people DON'T own at least one external amp, regardless of what they believe.

Back when I started this hobby, I owned external amps right off the bat - 2 Acurus 200X3 amps. Never been without an amp.

So most likely when an audiophile asks, "When should I get an amp?", the answer is, "It's not When, but Which amp."

I do NOT own an external amp nor do I need one in my set up. Money saved goes towards by Vinyl. CD and BuRay purchases

 

[alienmuppet]

Let's start a poll to see how many people DON'T own at least one external amp, regardless of what they believe.

Back when I started this hobby, I owned external amps right off the bat - 2 Acurus 200X3 amps. Never been without an amp.

So most likely when an audiophile asks, "When should I get an amp?", the answer is, "It's not When, but Which amp."

I do NOT have an external amp on my main setup either. I have a dedicate amp on my computer and on my "hi-fi" upstairs. AVR systems sounds the best... because it has the best speakers ;-)

I did nearly look at getting an external amp but decided why bother, it sounds fine. I'd rather put the money towards other things, like the new cartridge I bought for my record player recently. That made a huge difference! Moving parts and all that.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do NOT own an external amp nor do I need one in my set up. Money saved goes towards by Vinyl. CD and BuRay purchases

Prioritization.

That's what life is all about for us poor guys.

I suppose people who don't buy Vinyl, CD, and BD could save their money to buy a new shinny amp.

I haven't bought a CD in like 15 years. Never bought Vinyl in my life. And the last BD I bought was Adele Live at the Royal Albert Hall (2011, DTS-HD MA), which means I probably bought only 1 BD in the past 5 years.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I do NOT have an external amp on my main setup either. I have a dedicate amp on my computer and on my "hi-fi" upstairs. AVR systems sounds the best... because it has the best speakers ;-)

I did nearly look at getting an external amp but decided why bother, it sounds fine. I'd rather put the money towards other things, like the new cartridge I bought for my record player recently. That made a huge difference! Moving parts and all that.

I don't have an amp yet for my Denon 3312 either, which powers the Phil3 towers (4 ohms, 85dB/2.83v/m) in my 18' x 20' family room. It doesn't seem to need an amp. Not even one hint of needing an amp. So if I ever get something like the ATI AT1202 or AT1802 amp, it wouldn't be secondary to need. It would probably be frivolous fun.

And BTW, when are you dinosaurs ever moving from archaic analog vinyl to digital lossless audio?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Status Acoustics Titus 8T Floorstanding Speaker System Review | Audioholics

I was re-reading that thread last night. It made me chuckle. It is such a microcosm of the entire AH experience. The review itself was also one of the best I've read.

 

[3db]

Prioritization.

That's what life is all about for us poor guys.

I suppose people who don't buy Vinyl, CD, and BD could save their money to buy a new shinny amp.

I haven't bought a CD in like 15 years. Never bought Vinyl in my life. And the last BD I bought was Adele Live at the Royal Albert Hall (2011, DTS-HD MA), which means I probably bought only 1 BD in the past 5 years.

I really don't need one. My Yammy has more than enough power to comfortablly drive my speakers into the mid to high 90s and that is already too loud for me. So buying an outboard amp (I like shiny too BTW ) will not improve upon my sound. Other than shiny, there's nothing that an outboard amp offers me in terms of sonic performance improvement.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I really don't need one. My Yammy has more than enough power to comfortablly drive my speakers into the mid to high 90s and that is already too loud for me. So buying an outboard amp (I like shiny too BTW ) will not improve upon my sound. Other than shiny, there's nothing that an outboard amp offers me in terms of sonic performance improvement.

Don't blame you. I don't think buying external amps is about needing amp power unless your speakers are $50K RBH 8T speakers that drink power like water.

If I owned $50K RBH 8Ts, I'd get McIntosh 1kW amps.

 

[RichB]

Don't blame you. I don't think buying external amps is about needing amp power unless your speakers are $50K RBH 8T speakers that drink power like water.

If I owned $50K RBH 8Ts, I'd get McIntosh 1kW amps.

Me: Objection your honor.
Consul is insinuating that only 8T's benefit from large amps and that the only amps available over an AVR amp are 1 KW.

Judge: Sustained.

- Rich

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Me: Objection your honor.
Consul is insinuating that only 8T's benefit from large amps and that the only amps available over an AVR amp are 1 KW.

Judge: Sustained.

- Rich

Well, contrary to popular beliefs (which is my style ), I don't think $20K mere mortal speakers from Revel, B&W, and KEF benefit much from 500-1000W amps. I think 300W is pushing it for mere mortal speakers.

Only the RBH 8T, god of the speakers, would benefit from such power.

 

[alienmuppet]

I don't have an amp yet for my Denon 3312 either, which powers the Phil3 towers (4 ohms, 85dB/2.83v/m) in my 18' x 20' family room. It doesn't seem to need an amp. Not even one hint of needing an amp. So if I ever get something like the ATI AT1202 or AT1802 amp, it wouldn't be secondary to need. It would probably be frivolous fun.

And BTW, when are you dinosaurs ever moving from archaic analog vinyl to digital lossless audio?

When it gives me the same feeling

And when that lossless digital audio is from a 24/96 source, not 16/44. No no no no no no not going to get into debate about that ;-)

Seriously though, it isn't just about the sound. I like to have my favourate albums on vinyl (most originating from the 70's and 80's, like Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac, Kate Bush, etc.); putting it on is like an event, and the whole experience is just... better (for me at least). I like seeing the artwork, I like having the physical media. To each their own! And for some reason I like knowing I am bypassing anything digital - even though I doubt I could tell the difference if I let the AVR process it. It just makes me happy, and I want to listen to the album more.

Human beings; bloody weird things.

 

[RichB]

Well, contrary to popular beliefs (which is my style ), I don't think $20K mere mortal speakers from Revel, B&W, and KEF benefit much from 500-1000W amps. I think 300W is pushing it for mere mortal speakers.

Only the RBH 8T, god of the speakers, would benefit from such power.

Consider a sportscar analogy. Every so often a driver might enjoy taking it out for a spirited drive on a winding road like Sunset Way, Muir Beach, CA. Such a driver might buy better tires that perform better but will not last as long. The car does not need those tires and the driver does not need do this type for driving. It is also dangerous, but...

I was able to illuminate the ATI3005 clip indicators driving the Salons below reference volume (on the AV8801) with Sara McLachlan's Surfacing album, coinciding with the piano strikes.

Unfortunately, most amps, including my Parasound A51, do not have clip indicators. I am quite certain the A21 is clipping peaks below -10 on some content since the ATI3005 has. The A51 is spec'ed at 1.5 DB headroom so it can likely produce 600 watts into 4 ohms and the ATI3005 is more powerful.

Listening to my friend's A21/F206 system, I do not believe speakers reach the limit of their performance before the A21.

Clipping is not always harsh sounding, sometimes it limits the performance of a speaker before distortion becomes objectionable. A listener not know this is occurring. A reviewer would know who has heard their speakers with other amps.

The difficulty lies for a enthusiast to determine if they are limited by an AVR and should consider a 200 to 300 watt high current amp with power reserves required to drive difficult loads.

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Consider a sportscar analogy. Every so often a driver might enjoy taking it out for a spirited drive on a winding road like Sunset Way, Muir Beach, CA. Such a driver might buy better tires that perform better but will not last as long. The car does not need those tires and the driver does not need do this type for driving. It is also dangerous, but...

I was able to illuminate the ATI3005 clip indicators driving the Salons below reference volume (on the AV8801) with Sara McLachlan's Surfacing album, coinciding with the piano strikes.

Unfortunately, most amps, including my Parasound A51, do not have clip indicators. I am quite certain the A21 is clipping peaks below -10 on some content since the ATI3005 has. The A51 is spec'ed at 1.5 DB headroom so it can likely produce 600 watts into 4 ohms and the ATI3005 is more powerful.

Listening to my friend's A21/F206 system, I do not believe speakers reach the limit of their performance before the A21.

Clipping is not always harsh sounding, sometimes it limits the performance of a speaker before distortion becomes objectionable. A listener not know this is occurring. A reviewer would know who has heard their speakers with other amps.

The difficulty lies for a enthusiast to determine if they are limited by an AVR and should consider a 200 to 300 watt high current amp with power reserves required to drive difficult loads.

- Rich

The tire analogy doesn't hold water well, Rich, because performance tires often enable better steering feel and shorter stopping distances. And of course summer performance tires are usually more noisy and ride more harshly, while very high power amplifiers don't have any downside I can think of, except that they cost more. Summer performance tires have enough pros and cons that even for someone who spends a lot time on winding roads (like me) it is a complex decision. Unlike almost any automotive decision I can think of off-hand, a really high performance amplifier is just a matter of cost (and maybe space).

Many amps are like ATIs in that they have soft clipping circuits. Clipping will be audible only as compression. When I drove the Salon2s with the AT602, which does not have clipping lights but does have soft clipping, I could hear the difference unmistakably, but there wasn't any audible distortion except compression.

I'm also not one who thinks that only the 8T needs a lot of power. While the 8T has a lot of drivers, so do many other speakers (especially from Legacy Audio and McIntosh, for example), and in large rooms the power demands can be quite high if you're trying to realistically reproduce live music as it would be heard if the musicians were in the room. (If you are trying to reproduce the sound you hear in a very large venue in your home the power requirements are generally dramatically lower.)

 

[PENG]

Unfortunately, most amps, including my Parasound A51, do not have clip indicators. I am quite certain the A21 is clipping peaks below -10 on some content since the ATI3005 has. The A51 is spec'ed at 1.5 DB headroom so it can likely produce 600 watts into 4 ohms and the ATI3005 is more powerful.


- Rich

I have two amps that have clip indicators yet I have never ever seen them brink. On the other hand that does not mean clipping has not taken place, it depends on the sensitivity of the indicating circuits.

 

[cpp]

Well, contrary to popular beliefs (which is my style ), I don't think $20K mere mortal speakers from Revel, B&W, and KEF benefit much from 500-1000W amps. I think 300W is pushing it for mere mortal speakers.

Only the RBH 8T, god of the speakers, would benefit from such power.

Ok just to jump in here for a sec, so you are actually saying your Salons don't need your ATI attached.

The tire deal well like any performance car it's not about the tires but the compete suspension and the ability of the suspension to put power the ground or to stop or slow the car. Like an amp it's got to match the rest of the equipment for all devices in the chain to perform their best .

 

[RichB]

Ok, the tire thing was a bit off.

The point is, speakers that preform well with power, it's just fun to crank them up every once and a while.

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Many amps are like ATIs in that they have soft clipping circuits. Clipping will be audible only as compression. When I drove the Salon2s with the AT602, which does not have clipping lights but does have soft clipping, I could hear the difference unmistakably, but there wasn't any audible distortion except compression..)

Some AVR's might have this behavior.
Can current limiters such as 4 ohm settings have a similar effect, reducing dynamics without incurring identifiable distortion?

- Rich

 

[Irvrobinson]

Some AVR's might have this behavior.
Can current limiters such as 4 ohm settings have a similar effect, reducing dynamics without incurring identifiable distortion?

- Rich

What do you mean by "4 ohm settings"?

 

[RichB]

What do you mean by "4 ohm settings"?

Some AVR's like my Yamaha A820 have amplifier have 6 and 4 ohms speaker impedance settings that act as power limiters.
Even at fairly low level, I have found a reduction in sound quality in the 4 Ohm setting driving Revel M20 bookshelf speakers which are 4 ohms and not very efficient:

Revel Performa M20 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

This is interesting because it may shed some light on the performance of amps where power might limit speaker performance.
In my experience, some AVR's sound compressed before they produce recognizable distortion.

- Rich