What's the best DAC?

P

Paddymossy

Audiophyte
Hi all,

After enjoying my set up for some years now, I'm now upgrading to hooking up a Mac Mini running Amarra software through a DAC in order to stream 24 bit recordings to my set up. Question is: what is the best DAC in the market up to let's say 1500 USD? I've tried the Arcam rDac, the Rega Dac, Apogee Mini Dac and hopefully I'm testing the Musical Fidelity M1 DAC-A soon. Any other suggestions?

For the records, this is my set up:

Pre-amp: Musical Fidelity A308CR
Amps: 2 Goldmund Job 300 monoblocks
Speakers: Totem Acoustics Model One Signature

Any suggestions would help me a lot.
Thanks
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Hi all,

After enjoying my set up for some years now, I'm now upgrading to hooking up a Mac Mini running Amarra software through a DAC in order to stream 24 bit recordings to my set up. Question is: what is the best DAC in the market up to let's say 1500 USD? I've tried the Arcam rDac, the Rega Dac, Apogee Mini Dac and hopefully I'm testing the Musical Fidelity M1 DAC-A soon. Any other suggestions?

For the records, this is my set up:

Pre-amp: Musical Fidelity A308CR
Amps: 2 Goldmund Job 300 monoblocks
Speakers: Totem Acoustics Model One Signature

Any suggestions would help me a lot.
Thanks
Honestly? Look at the Appogge Duet + for $599 if you are determined to spend that much.

Experience leads me to believe that $1500 for a DAC is simply flushing $$ down the toilet.

MarkK from Audioheuristics.org owns a sub $200 Asus Xonar and ~$1K Benchmark DAC. He can't tell you which is which and the man has some serious chops.

I'm running an E-MU 1212M PCIe audio card and for D/A compared to $1200 RME fireface I would be willing to say you couldn't tell me which is which stone cold.

I know you didn't ask for this but given your setup and what you are looking to spend on a DAC I would personally reformulate my setup and get better speakers. Sell the amps, sell the speakers, take the $1500 budgeted for the DAC and get something else speaker wise. Again that is just me but I don't see the point in driving speakers with $1800 market value new with what is probably exceeding $5K of electronics (I don't know the MSRP on the Mono's).
 
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I

ichigo

Full Audioholic
Spend that money on a new blu ray player and some movies...or get some new CDs...you probably won't even get 0.01% improvement with a new rack, unless you are looking for a shiny box on your equipment rack.
 
B

bikemig

Audioholic Chief
This is not a very dac friendly website, :D. I like that most of the posters here are skeptical of dacs but I know people who swear by them. You may want to post your question on computer audiophile; I don't think there is any dac that's too expensive on that website that won't get some positive remarks, ;). The musical fidelity M1 Dac-A has been getting some positive buzz. I've been really happy with my HRT musicstreamer II (which runs $150). I don't know if you use headphones (or whether you are happy with an existing headphone amp) but there are plenty of decent dac/headphone amps as well that you might want to check out like the centrance dacmini or one of the benchmark dacs.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hi all,

After enjoying my set up for some years now, I'm now upgrading to hooking up a Mac Mini running Amarra software through a DAC in order to stream 24 bit recordings to my set up. Question is: what is the best DAC in the market up to let's say 1500 USD? I've tried the Arcam rDac, the Rega Dac, Apogee Mini Dac and hopefully I'm testing the Musical Fidelity M1 DAC-A soon. Any other suggestions?

For the records, this is my set up:

Pre-amp: Musical Fidelity A308CR
Amps: 2 Goldmund Job 300 monoblocks
Speakers: Totem Acoustics Model One Signature

Any suggestions would help me a lot.
Thanks
If you want to spend that much money on a DAC, there is one clear choice.

It is the RME Fireface 800.



Installed in my system.



These units offer a lot of functionality. It is rock solid stable and is one of the best purchases I ever made.

Visiting sites you see them everywhere. The uses have nothing but praise for them. At MPR studios in St. Paul, they are all over the place.

Made in Germany, not China, these units have the finest clocking and lowest jitter in the business. Strongly recommended.
 
Warpdrv

Warpdrv

Audioholic Ninja
Thanks for posting here TLS, I've been looking for a good DAC that will allow me to get better SQ out of my streaming from my PC.

Pretty confident that no-one is going to come in here and say your crazy, like they do to anyone else that turns their noses up at the thought of a DAC making any difference in SQ.

Wonder why that is... :rolleyes:

I will say that I got a good bit of information from one guy that posted in this thread...
Difference in chips? What makes a good DAC a good DAC?

As a Computer head (or digital head), I had also fallen to the same trap of thinking about things in the same way (e.g. chipset etc) and bits are bits.

What happens in a basic DAC is:

1) A input of digital signal
2) A processing of that digital signal
3) That digital signal is fed into a DAC to get a Analog output
4) Since the Analog output will be square wave, some filter is applied
5) That Analog signal is slightly amplified to line level so it gets transmitted to the preamp at the right level

Actually, the chips you list out are used for 1) input handling, 2) digital processing and 3) conversion to Analog

Those chips are all off the shelf and you will see even the medium end or high end one will use the same chips, does that make them sound the same? Hell no.

Audio is not like computer, it is very sensitive to a lot of things.

A few points greatly differentiate the sound:

1) Any input signal, albeit digital, introduce timing differences, which affects the sound output. The more expensive solutions has something to reclock the data, or to sync its clock with the source of digital signal. This will lead to more accurate sound playback

2) Digital processing differs from simply using off the shelf oversampling to significant DSP algorithms. In addition, digital filter is also applied before sending them to the DAC.

3) After the Analog signal is output from the DAC, it gets amplified. As the output is at really really low level, any slight distortion is highly significant. There are the basic op am to class A circuit or even tubes to amplify this sound to line level which can significantly affect the sound.

4) The circuit design, which may include, channel separation, minimize cross talk, separate digital stage and analog stage, and good power supply to ensure good amplification of signal.

These are the general points and I am sure there are others including the selection of circuit material, caps and capacitors, symmetry and minimization of signal path.

Mostly, digital circuits and computing only need to ensure it sends a as loud signal as possible as a 1 and no signal as 0. In addition, there is also numerous things in error corrections to ensure that 1s are 1s and 0s are 0s in our computing device. When we save and open word files always retrieving the same data, it is hard to believe bits aren't bits, and believe audio products should be as cheap as computing devices.

Not so, Analog processing requires not only high and low, it is everything in between that must be kept intact by the circuit. Also, Audio playback is the ultimate real time application, your amplifier is continuously outputting signal to the speaker/headphone to your ears, involving no discrete stage like your CPUs getting data. Your CPU can be notified about error correction and wait for the next clock, your ears does not have that capacity to wait. Any timing difference is directly amplified and goes to your ear, no error correction and no waiting.

It is unfortunate that these circuit design stuff are trade secrets to the manufacturers and they are likely to only outline the technology they use in vague marketing terms (e.g. upsampling algorithm, DAC chip (seems emphasized by only the very low end markets), some basic circuit design) but they cannot tell you all the details, nor are they meaningful. Ultimately, it is your ears they are trying to please and so you should trust your ears and forget all about those.

In the end, I think buying audio equipment is not buying computer, you cannot select the chipset on an internet website and get more or less what you wanted. You must audition it and see how your ears and heart respond to it before buying.
 
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jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
If you want to spend that much money on a DAC, there is one clear choice.

It is the RME Fireface 800.

Just put a Fireface 400 in a mastering studio along with some high end Mackie Monitors.

The A/D on that thing is just amazing. With that said if he simply needs D/A the Appogee Duet + will save him ~$1000 and no sacrifice in SQ.
 
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jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Thanks for posting here TLS, I've been looking for a good DAC that will allow me to get better SQ out of my streaming from my PC.

Pretty confident that no-one is going to come in here and say your crazy, like they do to anyone else that turns their noses up at the thought of a DAC making any difference in SQ.

Wonder why that is... :rolleyes:
It's entirely possible to get a poorly implemented DAC, expensive or cheap.

It's entirely possible to get a properly implemented DAC, expensive or cheap.

Does the Fireface 400 blow my 1212M out of the water for D/A ($1200 vs $160) Nope. Does the Firebox do MORE than my 1212M. Certainly.

Is spending another $1500 in electronics to drive some $1800 speakers the best avenue to increased SQ? Nope. The OP should think about reformulating his setup and invest a bunch more money in speakers.

Because it doesn't matter how much DAC he purchases his Totems are only going to get so good. They are the limiting factor.

He could get the Zaph ZRT 2.5's for $2K.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
This is not a very dac friendly website, :D. I like that most of the posters here are skeptical of dacs but I know people who swear by them. ....
What do you mean not friendly? ;) We all have a dac or two in our setups;)

If you do away with them, the only thing that would entertain you are vinyls;):D

People swear by lots of worthless stuff so others swearing by DACs is not very good evidence for them.:)
 

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