What does 4K and Atmos/DTS X mean for those of us happy with legacy equipment?

Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
I feel like such a luddite. I only have 1080p, but I'm happy with it. I only have 5.1, but I'm happy with it. I listen to mostly stereo, but I'm happy with it. I am such a luddite.

Someday, I will build a new system. At that time, I shall assess which of you are true prophets and which are preaching with the forked tongue. Some of you, I suspect, are just grousing. Meanwhile, I am still enjoying my toys and my music on this shabby old hardware. sigh.........

If you like what you have, what's wrong with that. There is nothing wrong being resistant to new technologies if you are happy. I embrace new technology, but not so much I blindly upgrade just for the sake of upgrading. I was in multiple demo rooms before I decided on Atmos. I got my 4K distressed box from my dealer, which was the same price as a high end 1080P.

Yes I am a huge early adopter for Cell Phones, Computers, and gadgets, but I always do my homework before I buy and ebay is my friend if it turns out I don't like it
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
If you like what you have, what's wrong with that. There is nothing wrong being resistant to new technologies if you are happy. I embrace new technology, but not so much I blindly upgrade just for the sake of upgrading. I was in multiple demo rooms before I decided on Atmos. I got my 4K distressed box from my dealer, which was the same price as a high end 1080P.

Yes I am a huge early adopter for Cell Phones, Computers, and gadgets, but I always do my homework before I buy and ebay is my friend if it turns out I don't like it
I have more dang technology at my house than I know what to do with. I have five computers looking at me on my desk, just in my office. Don't even get me started on gadgets and phones. And even with all that horsepower, it doesn't help the humor get through in some of my posts. :D
 
G

gzubeck

Audioholic
I feel like such a luddite. I only have 1080p, but I'm happy with it. I only have 5.1, but I'm happy with it. I listen to mostly stereo, but I'm happy with it. I am such a luddite.

Someday, I will build a new system. At that time, I shall assess which of you are true prophets and which are preaching with the forked tongue. Some of you, I suspect, are just grousing. Meanwhile, I am still enjoying my toys and my music on this shabby old hardware. sigh.........
Dont feel bad Im doing a two channel system only for now due to space constraints. A first rate two channel system will embarrass a second rate multichannel system.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I would disagree even though I'm happy prolonging upgrading. 4k is the ultimate resolution, about as high, even on larger screens, as our eyes can resolve. After this thread prompting me to do a bit of research, I've realized Atmos is the ultimate surround format. In the real world, sound can be perceived from every direction in space. I have 5 front channels. Center, right, far right, left, and far left via Audyssey DSX. I moved my left and right speakers about a foot closer to make room for the wides. All sounds that would normally be mixed hard right and hard left now end up in the wides. This sounds significantly better than spacing my left and rights further and having a floating image between r total and l total. In order to have more convincing surround sound were going to need more speakers. Money and home theater practicality aside, I would argue that the perfect system would have a minimum of 20 channels. 7 fronts, 2 of those being elevated L/R similar to PLIIZ configurations, 4 sides,two of them being elevated surrounds, 5 rears, one of which being a center surround back and two of them being elevated backs, and four overhead channels. We could go as high as 24 channels. This is kind of what dts:x is going for.

Even if you stick with 7.1, 5.1, or 3.1, Atmos is superior, because instead of mixing audio into discrete channels, producers can place them in space, and the decoder can figure out how to best represent that space on the available sound channels. Without Atmos or dts x, a producer would be required to mix a ridiculous amount of audio channels. Atmos theaters are either going or already using much more than a 7.1.4 configuration. Just from photos I've seen one theater with 16 different speakers, all discrete. Try fitting a 22+ channel soundtrack onto a Blu ray already packed with 4k. Even with lossy compression that would be a huge waste of space, and down mixing into 5.1 or even 2 channels would be extremely problematic for a decoder.

The biggest issue I see with Atmos is implementing it at home. Installing in ceiling speakers is a big problem for people who rent, or people who don't have dedicated theater rooms. Many of your typical htib "consumer grade" buyers are going to be disappointed by upfiring speakers. It feels as gimmicky to me as that "theater dimensional" mode on my onkyo receiver. Does it sound more spacious and enveloping than stereo? Yes. Does it sound anything like even the most basic 5.1 system? Absolutely not. Outside of headphones where the sound stage is locked dead on your ears, there is no way to fake sound coming from a completely different direction it's not and have it actually be convincing. DTS X allows for a configuration involving heights in addition to or in place of overheads, I wish that Atmos would have followed this same configuration. It's easy to hang satellite speakers on the wall. I've even used those damage free Command picture hanging strips on tiny satellites with no problems with them falling off for years, I'm not sure I would try the same thing with my ceiling as I rather dislike being hit in the head by falling objects.

Atmos enabled speakers seem technically flawed. The idea is that the sound is supposed to arrive reflected from the ceiling, iirc, Atmos speakers are supposed to be limited to 120hz and up. Even at 120hz up to the end of the bass range and into the lower midrange sound is going to be less directional and have a wide dispersion pattern. Even if the drivers are horn loaded, that sound eventually has to leave the horn. If you've got a set of biampable speaker, disconnect the jumper and wire it just to the woofer and play something in two channel. Chances are good even in the sweet spot sound is going to be more diffuse because low frequencies have a wider dispersion. Directional cues in sound are derived from the brain sorting out which sound is A. Louder, and B. Arrived first to the ears. There is a very good chance you're going to hear sound directly from the Atmos speaker before the sound from the ceiling bounce, if anything this would just add ambiance and spaciousness to the sound field similar to the way first reflections do in a two channel setup.

4k is here to stay. Nobody will disagree that it is vastly superior to 1080p and the only hurdle was cost concerns and availability of content, neither of those are as big an issue as before. Even a budget conscious shopper can pick up an affordable 4k display.

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Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Also, pay close attention to what they are saying in this video, particularly between the 10:00 -15:00 minute mark. There are aspect of display technology way more important than more pixel (i.e.4K). 4K is basically worthless on small screens.

Wouldn't be worthless to me. Like I said previously, with 20/16 corrected vision, I can easily resolve the pixels on a 1080p 17“ screen sitting 1 meter away. In Walmart I can easily see the difference between 1080p and 4k even on 42“ displays at a distance of 12 feet. My brother has an iPhone with a retina display (I think it's similar to 1080p on a 4“ screen), my phone is similarly sized at 4“ and 720p and there is a clearly noticeable improvement on his phone holding them 24" from my face. The whole idea behind those "what distance/size does 720p, 1080p, and 4k become resolvable" charts is putting it too simply. If I listened to those charts 480p on a 24“ TV at 7' should look no worse than 720p, yet the SD channels on cable still look bad compared to the HD ones on my bedroom TV.

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MR.MAGOO

MR.MAGOO

Audioholic Field Marshall
Why would one need Atmos / 4k, if the signal is not of that format? Will Atmos and/or 4k really be a breath-taking stunning upgrade to a black & white classic DVD or blu-ray? For example: Casablanca, Psycho (original Hitchcock), etc?
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Why would one need Atmos / 4k, if the signal is not of that format? Will Atmos and/or 4k really be a breath-taking stunning upgrade to a black & white classic DVD or blu-ray? For example: Casablanca, Psycho (original Hitchcock), etc?
Why wouldn't the signal be of that format? I would say 4k is like going from DVD to Blu Ray. Nothing is going to be as big ground breaking as going from black and white to color or from VHS with Dolby surround on a CRT to digital on a flat screen with discrete 5.1. That'd like going from watching movies with good speakers to having a close approximation of a true theater experience.

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Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
I never meant to imply that HDR and 4k are dependent on each other, but at least you got my main point, is that you will never see HDR implemented on 1080 sets. New TV technology will not filter down anymore to 1080P sets.

The PS4 (non pro) is supposed to be able to support HDR in the software, yet I don't think we will see any games take advantage of it.

As for Atmos really taking off, I don't see that either,

  • it's cumbersome to set up unless it's new construction, or you try the upfiring speakers (Which I don't reccomend)
  • It's expensive, adding 2, 4 or more speakers to your setup.
Those things being said, it doesn't take away from the fact that IMO the sound brings you more into the movie, and I enjoy it. As for popularity, you will see more and more movie theaters support it. Disney offered it with it's Rogue One release and other big studios are releasing movies in format.

I also don't think that 3 sound formats, Atmos, DTS:X and the Auro 3D is overkill. At this point the industry seems to be behind Atmos more than the others.

as for 65" TV the viewing distance is 4-8 feet aprox, not 3-4
You are incorrect. I have been researching this for quite some time. I posted a video interview from Joe Kane so you can hear his comments. If you don't know who Joe Kane is, you need to look him up, he's no light weight he know his stuff. By the way, he has an 80 inch 4K TV and his saying what I'm saying to you.

Verification of Calculations by Sony and THX

"Sony lists identical required viewing distances in the Frequently Asked Questions section of their product description. Checkout the Amazon.com product description FAQ for the Sony 65X900A 4k Ultra HDTV. It shows the same distances I have calculated (i.e. 3.6 feet for a 55″ screen and 4.2 feet for a 65″ screen.) If you don’t believe my numbers, confirmation from Sony should help convince you."

https://carltonbale.com/does-4k-resolution-matter/

Sitting at 8 feet from a 65 inch set is pointless and waste of pixels.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
What he is getting at is that you are focusing on the disadvantages of Atmos, and that is all on the end-user side (more speakers to install, etc).

There are also advantages of Atmos, mostly the object based mixing vs. the old way of discrete channel mixing. Your argument has ignored the advantages of Atmos and only focused on the disadvantages.

Personally, I'm on the fence concerning Atmos, but it certainly won't happen in my current house, something to consider in my next house.
Yes, I mostly focused on this disadvantages of Atmos because the preponderance of them when it comes to this format. They heavily outweigh the advantages, whatever they might be. Its all about implementation to me, if its not practical or it just plain superfluous, whatever subjective advantages it might have are so overwhelmed by its disadvantages, it makes it pointless.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Wouldn't be worthless to me. Like I said previously, with 20/16 corrected vision, I can easily resolve the pixels on a 1080p 17“ screen sitting 1 meter away. In Walmart I can easily see the difference between 1080p and 4k even on 42“ displays at a distance of 12 feet. My brother has an iPhone with a retina display (I think it's similar to 1080p on a 4“ screen), my phone is similarly sized at 4“ and 720p and there is a clearly noticeable improvement on his phone holding them 24" from my face. The whole idea behind those "what distance/size does 720p, 1080p, and 4k become resolvable" charts is putting it too simply. If I listened to those charts 480p on a 24“ TV at 7' should look no worse than 720p, yet the SD channels on cable still look bad compared to the HD ones on my bedroom TV.

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Most people have 20/20 vision, so that's what I basing my statements on, not the exception to the rule. You have people out there that claim their ears can resolve 24bit/192khz audio, some even claim they can hear infrasounds so they go out and spend big bucks on the biggest, baddest, most powerful subwoofers, those people are the exceptions. Again, my statements are directed to the rest of use mere mortals, that aren't capable of that.

You can try to discredit the charts, but what other science, mathematics or objective measurements we have to reply upon. It is a fact that human eye sight a limit to the amount resolution we can resolve, the charts is a way to show and explain how that's measured.

However, consumers in this hobby are so susceptible to hype and marketing, almost as bad as the people that upgrade their Iphone every year.

The manufacturing and marketing 4K TV is "Planned Obsolesce" at its best. Apple is good at planned obsolesce, it seems the display manufacturers have learned well from Apple.

It is disappointing to read comments from people in forums like this, AVS forum, Blu Ray Forum, etc., which are supposed to consist of folks that are more informed about consumer electronic products, especially A/V gear, than the rest of the masses, and less than susceptible to the marketing hype than your everyday, prototypical, unlearned consumer.

For example, if I was to come into any one of the aforementioned forums and post that "Bose speakers are the best" many of the members, especially those that hold themselves up as being knowledgeable, would come at me in the swiftest and explain to me the many reason why Bose are not the best speakers, in spite of Bose powerful marketing at convinced to purchase Bose in the first place.

I should have known that the "Marketeers" are smarter than us here on forum boards, they know the psychology behind the human mind and what drives us to purchase products, and more than not its has nothing to with practicality, science and objectivity. For example, we will purchase a 55 inch 4K TV and sit 10 feet from and proclaim the greatness of 4K resolution.

4K was and is a hugely successful marketing campaigned, especially if it can seduce those that aren't supposed to be susceptible to such seductions.

By the way, 4K TV is already obsolete. 8K is already in the works, it might be a while, but its coming. We will be back here again, just like in the Matrix movies, those that we claim how much for 8K blows away 4K on their new 55 inch 8K from 10 feet.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
If you like what you have, what's wrong with that. There is nothing wrong being resistant to new technologies if you are happy. I embrace new technology, but not so much I blindly upgrade just for the sake of upgrading. I was in multiple demo rooms before I decided on Atmos. I got my 4K distressed box from my dealer, which was the same price as a high end 1080P.

Yes I am a huge early adopter for Cell Phones, Computers, and gadgets, but I always do my homework before I buy and ebay is my friend if it turns out I don't like it
It's not just someone being resistant to new technology. Some new technology isn't good and should fail in the market. Just because something is new doesn't always mean its better. What have going on here, particularly in the U.S. is unabated consumerism (which sometimes adversely affect the environment) and the creation of massive debt.

Home Dolby Atmos, in my opinion, is an example of a format that should fail in the market. It is clear, it's not implementable nor even practical for most A/V enthusiast. I think it has failed to some degree, because I think the goal for Dolby and consumer electronic companies would be for this format to widely adopted in consumer homes, I don't think that's happening.

 
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Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
You can try to discredit the charts, but what other science, mathematics or objective measurements we have to reply upon. It is a fact that human eye sight a limit to the amount resolution we can resolve, the charts is a way to show and explain how that's measured.
Auditor55

I am giving you two-high-fives. I just can't figure out how to emoji that or put it in a post. Audio seems particularly vulnerable to the fringe when it comes to claims and excess. I enjoy listening to music and doing so at a reasonable high fidelity. I can't stand a bug on my windshield because I enjoy a sparkling clear view of the world.

Audio has a fringe and the HT crowd does as well. That can't be stopped or even fenced in. The approach of "show me the science" is a great way to go. Its supposed to be the underpinning of what makes this forum different from others. It works most of the time because most of the time the opinions that weigh in here will do so with some good data to support their stances.

It doesn't always carry the day when a "true audiophile" or a "true what-ever-they-call-a-home-theater-nut" weighs in with his highly esteemed and self centered claims of prowess. When you get on a thread where claims are made of fantastic hearing ability (I can hear the difference between 320kbps and lossless sampling like night and day, blindfolded, standing in a subway station) and similar claims for ocular prowess (I can tell the difference in the colors of peoples clothes with my $300 aftermarket power cable verses the stock one that came with the TV) then you know its time to either go to another thread, or go have a sandwich. Those folks are not going to listen to the science or arguments of "little people". (Bladerunner)

I got your point of view. I attended that school of thought. Keep up the good work. Enjoy the music.
 
Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
You are incorrect. I have been researching this for quite some time. I posted a video interview from Joe Kane so you can hear his comments. If you don't know who Joe Kane is, you need to look him up, he's no light weight he know his stuff. By the way, he has an 80 inch 4K TV and his saying what I'm saying to you.

Verification of Calculations by Sony and THX

"Sony lists identical required viewing distances in the Frequently Asked Questions section of their product description. Checkout the Amazon.com product description FAQ for the Sony 65X900A 4k Ultra HDTV. It shows the same distances I have calculated (i.e. 3.6 feet for a 55″ screen and 4.2 feet for a 65″ screen.) If you don’t believe my numbers, confirmation from Sony should help convince you."

https://carltonbale.com/does-4k-resolution-matter/

Sitting at 8 feet from a 65 inch set is pointless and waste of pixels.

Crutchfield

https://www.crutchfield.com/S-ZejNxdcCzzX/learn/learningcenter/home/TV_placement.html

http://referencehometheater.com/2013/commentary/4k-calculator/

https://www.tekrevue.com/tv-screen-size-calculator/

I have researched it as well as I have multiple sources to stated viewing distance. You are correct that around 4-5ft is ideal, but a difference can be perceifed with 20/20 vision up to ~8ft according from the multiple sources i reserached. Would they be able to see the full 4k at the larger distance, no, but will they see a difference between that and 1080p, at least according to my sources, yes. I could keep putting links up as well.

As I stated in my earlier posts, the greatest advantage 4K has right now, is HDR and newer technology (refresh rates, contrast ratio, imaging processing) not the resolution. Investment isn't going to be made in 1080P.

I am not a resolution freak, I don't care if my video games play at 900P or 1080P, because I won't be able to tell a difference with all the movement. The same can be said with 4K and 1080p, but what I will see is greater contrast ratios, color, etc.
 
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Cos

Cos

Audioholic Samurai
It's not just someone being resistant to new technology. Some new technology isn't good and should fail in the market. Just because something is new doesn't always mean its better. What have going on here, particularly in the U.S. is unabated consumerism (which sometimes adversely affect the environment) and the creation of massive debt.

Home Dolby Atmos, in my opinion, is an example of a format that should fail in the market. It is clear, it's not implementable nor even practical for most A/V enthusiast. I think it has failed to some degree, because I think the goal for Dolby and consumer electronic companies would be for this format to widely adopted in consumer homes, I don't think that's happening.


Resistant to new technology was his words he used not mine, I just replied back from his response

I feel like such a luddite.


My point was if he is happy with what he has, and doesn't see a need to change that is fine, why change just to change. My reply was taken way out of context.

As for Atmos, it is your opinion, and I don't disagree with the fact that it is extremely difficult to implement for most A/V enthusiast. It will never have the mainstream appeal of DTS Master Audio, etc, because it does require a significantly larger investment with the right room conditions.

That does not, however, take away from my opinion, that it enhances the the movie experience when implemented correctly. It's a sound format that is slowing being adapted by big movie theaters and movies, like Star Wars Rogue One, VIII, etc. As long as that continues to be supported by those mediums, there should be support in the Home Theater Community.

So you think it is pointless and offers no improvement in sound quality. As someone who built his HT room from studs on up, and was able to set it up correctly, I will disagree and state that, to me, it actually does improve the sound experience when I watch a movie encoded with it.

As for myself, I am not a smoke and mirrors kind of person, I don't buy $300.00 dollar speaker cables, I use Monoprice HDMI and Blue Jeans Interconnects. I will also agree that if I did not have the right conditions to set up up (both financial and room size) I would not be using it.
 
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H

hosko

Audiophyte
Home Dolby Atmos, in my opinion, is an example of a format that should fail in the market. It is clear, it's not implementable nor even practical for most A/V enthusiast. I think it has failed to some degree, because I think the goal for Dolby and consumer electronic companies would be for this format to widely adopted in consumer homes, I don't think that's happening.
And 7.1 is widely adopted? it won't die because studios need to mix it for the theatre releases so why not include it on a 4k bluray release. It really makes no difference to them and the cost difference is tiny.
 
S

sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
I only replace technology with newer technology when my technology breaks and can not be repaired. Right now, I'm enjoying 5.1 from 17 year old equipment upgraded with Airport Express allowing me to enjoy stereo from my laptop. BTW, I do not think there is an ultimate, except perhaps in turntable/cartridge technology. As far as surround sound goes I think we will soon have 120 channel capability using active speaker arrays. These will be driven by cell phones; and, there will be no more need for pre/pros, receivers or universal players.
 
Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
4k is easily resolvable on a 55" display at a distance of 10 feet, even according to the charts. I can here down to 15hz, a majority of people can't but you can definitely feel it, even if you're deaf. Lots of things are marketing hype but 4k isn't one of them and neither are infrasonic subwoofers. 1080p is too low of a resolution for a very large display, it's why theaters have been using 4k for longer than the consumer market has.


Nobody is going to argue that 196/24 is better than 48/16. Humans just can't hear above 22khz and most of us would be lucky to hear above 18khz.

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yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
I don't want it to fail. I was super excited when PLIIZ and Audyssey dsx came out, and I am currently using it. Atmos elevation speakers, while not ideal compared to overhead speakers, will definitely expand the sound field enough to be noticeable to consumers. Just because your average Joe best buy shopper might not use it doesn't mean it will fail. Theaters use it and have invested millions into equipment for it, it's backwards compatible, and works with lowly 5.1. Tons of consumers use 5.1, but 7.1 content is almost standard nowadays. Heck, many consumers just use a sound bar or even their TV speakers, but even local channels over the air broadcast in surround. Dolby Atmos should also greatly simplify the mixing process.

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Y

yepimonfire

Audioholic Samurai
Resistant to new technology was his words he used not mine, I just replied back from his response

I feel like such a luddite.


My point was if he is happy with what he has, and doesn't see a need to change that is fine, why change just to change. My reply was taken way out of context.

As for Atmos, it is your opinion, and I don't disagree with the fact that it is extremely difficult to implement for most A/V enthusiast. It will never have the mainstream appeal of DTS Master Audio, etc, because it does require a significantly larger investment with the right room conditions.

That does not, however, take away from my opinion, that it enhances the the movie experience when implemented correctly. It's a sound format that is slowing being adapted by big movie theaters and movies, like Star Wars Rogue One, VIII, etc. As long as that continues to be supported by those mediums, there should be support in the Home Theater Community.

So you think it is pointless and offers no improvement in sound quality. As someone who built his HT room from studs on up, and was able to set it up correctly, I will disagree and state that, to me, it actually does improve the sound experience when I watch a movie encoded with it.

As for myself, I am not a smoke and mirrors kind of person, I don't buy $300.00 dollar speaker cables, I use Monoprice HDMI and Blue Jeans Interconnects. I will also agree that if I did not have the right conditions to set up up (both financial and room size) I would not be using it.
Ideally we would all be using very large, 4-way active crossover floor standing speakers in a room without corners or heavily treated with acoustic material, all speakers placed in a circular axis pointing directly at the listening position while listening at reference volume with a subwoofer woofer that could put out 115dB all the way down to 20hz or below, with full range speakers and amplifiers capable of 105dB across the entire audible frequency range. Lots of things in the home audio world sound better but are impractical, it doesn't mean it's snake oil or a money grabbing scheme. It's nice to have the option to do better, there will always be someone willing to put in the money or effort to achieve perfection, for everyone else there's less expensive and less intrusive options. You can put Atmos capability into a receiver and still listen in 2ch mode, you can put Atmos on a Blu ray and still hook it up with stereo rca cables, so why not?

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