Volume for digital playback

[killdozzer]

In a 'chain', let's call it that, from my PC to my speakers there are several places I can change the volume. What would you say is the best way to change volume level?

I have a software player (I use winamp) and I can change volume on its interface (I have no idea what does this change really, what is the type of the signal going through a software player).

I can change volume on my PC laptop and I'm guessing this affects the analogue signal as it lower or raises the volume on the 3.5 headphones output jack.

And I can change volume level on my rcvr.

It doesn't always sound the same. So I'm guessing that at least one of them (my suspicion goes to the PC player software) is in deed gain. If I leave my player really low and crank up my rcvr there's significantly more going on in lower freqs. If I turn the player's volume way up and lower my rcvr it's all mid's and high's.

Now, other than 'what works best for you', could you tell me which combination might be guilty of distorting?

A good friend of mine says that he got an advice that you should have everything on your PC all the way up, and control the sound with your amp or rcvr because volume sliders on your PC software are always an algorithm of a kind and that they don't really amplify or attenuate anything but change the signal to appear to be of a lower or higher SPL.

 

[TLS Guy]

In a 'chain', let's call it that, from my PC to my speakers there are several places I can change the volume. What would you say is the best way to change volume level?

I have a software player (I use winamp) and I can change volume on its interface (I have no idea what does this change really, what is the type of the signal going through a software player).

I can change volume on my PC laptop and I'm guessing this affects the analogue signal as it lower or raises the volume on the 3.5 headphones output jack.

And I can change volume level on my rcvr.

It doesn't always sound the same. So I'm guessing that at least one of them (my suspicion goes to the PC player software) is in deed gain. If I leave my player really low and crank up my rcvr there's significantly more going on in lower freqs. If I turn the player's volume way up and lower my rcvr it's all mid's and high's.

Now, other than 'what works best for you', could you tell me which combination might be guilty of distorting?

A good friend of mine says that he got an advice that you should have everything on your PC all the way up, and control the sound with your amp or rcvr because volume sliders on your PC software are always an algorithm of a kind and that they don't really amplify or attenuate anything but change the signal to appear to be of a lower or higher SPL.

Your friend is correct.

However under domestic conditions, you never really know how near maximum you are in the digital domain.

I usually play music from my DAW. Among other features, it has a bit meter, so I can see how close I am to running out of bits and set the gain structure accordingly. Also when I work or open a WAV file I can measure how many db of head room I have before running out of bits. I can change the level of the whole WAV file at the click of a mouse, to optimize gain.

There are signal to noise issues in the digital domain because of dithering. So you do need to optimize gain structure in the digital an analog domains. However few people can do this. I often wonder if these issues make people unhappy with digital sound sources.

However my best advice is to set the gain in the digital domain so that your receiver volume is set to a level that you play most CDs at. You hope that your commercial CDs have been mastered correctly.

A lot of people don't realize that you do have to pay attention to gain structure in the digital domain.

One last issue is that I don't think Winamp has been supported for some time. Codecs continually evolve, even MP3. My suspicion is that your player is out of date and therefore it is no longer decoding properly. Get rid of Winamap and go to a good currently supported player.
I use open source VLC.

 

[MrBoat]

I do set the pc at maximum and control the volume at the AVR most of the time. However, it is convenient at times to control the volume at the PC, which is still at the upper levels of input comparatively. If the speakers and source material are really good to excellent, the differences may not be so noticeable without some real critical attention to the details or that might not be noticeable on low volume anyway.

 

[killdozzer]

Great reply @TLS Guy , there are few of you who in these forums who both understand audio and are able to explain things to us amateurs.

So I can use a CD to determine the volume of my PC player. Then I should probably just leave it there and go on turning volume up and down on the rcvr. I didn't understand everything; what you say about running out of bits is to abstract for me, but I noticed the difference in sound and it is easily detectable. So this got me wondering where does this difference come from? I must say I enjoy the sound better when my winamp player is very low and I compensate that on the rcvr, because, as I said, you can detect more bass and then even if you listen at low levels the music is still 'meaty' with no extra correction. I enjoy low listening when the flat is quiet, but there's always the task of slightly boosting low frequencies when doing so.

However, I'm always drawn to what sounds accurately so I'll make the necessary changes.

Didn't know about winamp being old. I liked the smooth and simple look of it, VLC was always ugly to me, but it's not just you saying that VLC is good, so I'll give it a try and just find a nice skin for it.

So, stop me if I'm wrong , what I gathered from everything you said PC players might be the guilty party for minute inaccuracies in sound, but it is possible that a PC player will sound more accurately at, let's say 80% or 90 or 75% of the volume and since I don't have adequate equipment to asses this I might use a CD to find the 'sweet spot'. (I might even take a couple of good sounding CD's and find the middle and just leave it there).

Thank you very much @MrBoat and @TLS Guy

 

[slipperybidness]

Great reply @TLS Guy , there are few of you who in these forums who both understand audio and are able to explain things to us amateurs.

So I can use a CD to determine the volume of my PC player. Then I should probably just leave it there and go on turning volume up and down on the rcvr. I didn't understand everything; what you say about running out of bits is to abstract for me, but I noticed the difference in sound and it is easily detectable. So this got me wondering where does this difference come from? I must say I enjoy the sound better when my winamp player is very low and I compensate that on the rcvr, because, as I said, you can detect more bass and then even if you listen at low levels the music is still 'meaty' with no extra correction. I enjoy low listening when the flat is quiet, but there's always the task of slightly boosting low frequencies when doing so.

However, I'm always drawn to what sounds accurately so I'll make the necessary changes.

Didn't know about winamp being old. I liked the smooth and simple look of it, VLC was always ugly to me, but it's not just you saying that VLC is good, so I'll give it a try and just find a nice skin for it.

So, stop me if I'm wrong , what I gathered from everything you said PC players might be the guilty party for minute inaccuracies in sound, but it is possible that a PC player will sound more accurately at, let's say 80% or 90 or 75% of the volume and since I don't have adequate equipment to asses this I might use a CD to find the 'sweet spot'. (I might even take a couple of good sounding CD's and find the middle and just leave it there).

Thank you very much @MrBoat and @TLS Guy

Try out Foobar2000 as your audio player. It is free and it is very well liked for many reasons, this is what I use.

Personally, I max out my PC volume and control volume through my AVR.

 

[yepimonfire]

Great reply @TLS Guy , there are few of you who in these forums who both understand audio and are able to explain things to us amateurs.

So I can use a CD to determine the volume of my PC player. Then I should probably just leave it there and go on turning volume up and down on the rcvr. I didn't understand everything; what you say about running out of bits is to abstract for me, but I noticed the difference in sound and it is easily detectable. So this got me wondering where does this difference come from? I must say I enjoy the sound better when my winamp player is very low and I compensate that on the rcvr, because, as I said, you can detect more bass and then even if you listen at low levels the music is still 'meaty' with no extra correction. I enjoy low listening when the flat is quiet, but there's always the task of slightly boosting low frequencies when doing so.

However, I'm always drawn to what sounds accurately so I'll make the necessary changes.

Didn't know about winamp being old. I liked the smooth and simple look of it, VLC was always ugly to me, but it's not just you saying that VLC is good, so I'll give it a try and just find a nice skin for it.

So, stop me if I'm wrong , what I gathered from everything you said PC players might be the guilty party for minute inaccuracies in sound, but it is possible that a PC player will sound more accurately at, let's say 80% or 90 or 75% of the volume and since I don't have adequate equipment to asses this I might use a CD to find the 'sweet spot'. (I might even take a couple of good sounding CD's and find the middle and just leave it there).

Thank you very much @MrBoat and @TLS Guy

You're artificially lowering the bit depth with digital volume controls and getting an approximation of the original signals dynamics. Really the best way to handle PC audio is via spdif if you want to be a purist about it. I have a FiiO headphone amp and USB dac that won't even let me adjust the volume in windows. Really though your best bet is to just keep the volume in windows on max. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with bass. What you would hear if you even heard anything would be artifacts that sound scratchy and "pixelated".

Sent from my SM-G360T1 using Tapatalk

 

[killdozzer]

You're artificially lowering the bit depth with digital volume controls and getting an approximation of the original signals dynamics. Really the best way to handle PC audio is via spdif if you want to be a purist about it. I have a FiiO headphone amp and USB dac that won't even let me adjust the volume in windows. Really though your best bet is to just keep the volume in windows on max. I seriously doubt it has anything to do with bass. What you would hear if you even heard anything would be artifacts that sound scratchy and "pixelated".

Sent from my SM-G360T1 using Tapatalk

I appreciate and welcome your two bits to the topic, but perhaps there is something other than scratchy and "pixelated". First sentence in your post is a well written and much needed simple explanation. But I repeated the procedure several times with different music, it always sounds deeper when winamp is low and rcvr is high. Is it not possible that by lowering the volume in winamp you simply loose more in the mid/high range and it appears lower because of that?

Anyway, as I said, I understand now the sum of it and will set the volume accordingly.

 

[Bucknekked]

I appreciate and welcome your two bits to the topic, but perhaps there is something other than scratchy and "pixelated". First sentence in your post is a well written and much needed simple explanation. But I repeated the procedure several times with different music, it always sounds deeper when winamp is low and rcvr is high. Is it not possible that by lowering the volume in winamp you simply loose more in the mid/high range and it appears lower because of that?

Anyway, as I said, I understand now the sum of it and will set the volume accordingly.

Foobar2000 is a windows only player. If you run Windows, no harm no foul. I'm a Mac guy so I can't.
VLC is platform independent. It runs/supported nearly everywhere. It also has the advantage of being able to open just about any filetype and make it play if its possible to play it.

I wish the folks who built Foobar200 would come out with a windows port. alas, none yet.
VLC works although to your point, it is not visually attractive.

 

[yepimonfire]

I appreciate and welcome your two bits to the topic, but perhaps there is something other than scratchy and "pixelated". First sentence in your post is a well written and much needed simple explanation. But I repeated the procedure several times with different music, it always sounds deeper when winamp is low and rcvr is high. Is it not possible that by lowering the volume in winamp you simply loose more in the mid/high range and it appears lower because of that?

Anyway, as I said, I understand now the sum of it and will set the volume accordingly.

Try changing the sample rate and bit depth in the sound settings to 24/96 and using the Windows volume control and see if it still happens. If you still notice it, it's likely you're imagining the difference as oversampling and using a higher bit depth would get rid of any possible artifacts introduced by a digital volume control. I believe Windows 8 and above uses 32bit floating point to mix before outputting the 16 bit mix to avoid problems like this and other things like clipping.

Sent from my SM-G360T1 using Tapatalk

 

[killdozzer]

@TLS Guy @slipperybidness @Bucknekked
My PC went down. It seems it's bad sectors all over the crucial files in Windows. Since I had to start from scratch I took your advice and opted for a different player. I went with Foobar, not VLC, but either should be good if it's still supported, that being the reason why you told me to change winamp in the first place.

Now I'm surprised as I have a feeling it sounds better. But, since I have no means of checking because that would entice installing the old winamp and then switching between them and it's not a good idea to install programs that might "collide over jurisdiction", I wanted to ask here is it possible or is it in my head?

Could new codec updates, TLS mentions, bring better sound?

 

[TLS Guy]

@TLS Guy @slipperybidness @Bucknekked
My PC went down. It seems it's bad sectors all over the crucial files in Windows. Since I had to start from scratch I took your advice and opted for a different player. I went with Foobar, not VLC, but either should be good if it's still supported, that being the reason why you told me to change winamp in the first place.

Now I'm surprised as I have a feeling it sounds better. But, since I have no means of checking because that would entice installing the old winamp and then switching between them and it's not a good idea to install programs that might "collide over jurisdiction", I wanted to ask here is it possible or is it in my head?

Could new codec updates, TLS mentions, bring better sound?

Yes, using an out of date unsupported player is a bad idea for lots of reasons, including security.

I'm sure you do notice improved sound.

With streaming I think the best sound comes from no player. Windows 10 is able to decode the streams I use natively without using even Flash player. The sound I get from sites like the BPO and the BBC is absolutely stunning. You also have the bonus of a picture.

For people that use computers extensively for AV, upgrade to Windows 10 is part of the basics as far as I'm concerned.

 

[killdozzer]

Yes, using an out of date unsupported player is a bad idea for lots of reasons, including security.

I'm sure you do notice improved sound.

With streaming I think the best sound comes from no player. Windows 10 is able to decode the streams I use natively without using even Flash player. The sound I get from sites like the BPO and the BBC is absolutely stunning. You also have the bonus of a picture.

For people that use computers extensively for AV, upgrade to Windows 10 is part of the basics as far as I'm concerned.

Well thank you. Glad to hear I'm still not imagining improvements. Plenty time for that when I go crazy.

Also, thank you for WIN10 recommendations. I do use my PC for AV extensively, but I'll go nowhere near WIN10. That's where privacy lays buried. That's a huge trade off for me. Too big.

WIN10 are often being described as having the role of preparing people for "cloud" and IMHO that's a bad thing. Thanks anyway.

kd

 

[MrBoat]

Well thank you. Glad to hear I'm still not imagining improvements. Plenty time for that when I go crazy.

Also, thank you for WIN10 recommendations. I do use my PC for AV extensively, but I'll go nowhere near WIN10. That's where privacy lays buried. That's a huge trade off for me. Too big.

WIN10 are often being described as having the role of preparing people for "cloud" and IMHO that's a bad thing. Thanks anyway.

kd

I have win 10. I'm not a fan of MS but 10 isn't so bad once you remove all the bloatware. People tend to give more of their security away on google, internet shopping, phones and social media these days anyway.

 

[killdozzer]

I have win 10. I'm not a fan of MS but 10 isn't so bad once you remove all the bloatware. People tend to give more of their security away on google, internet shopping, phones and social media these days anyway.

It's not that I wouldn't agree on other "privacy killers" but I don't use Google and smartphones. I was, to the shame of me talked into facebook "for work" as they said. I do regret it.

If you know of a decent forum where they explain how to get rid of all or most bloatware, I'm up for some reading.

BTW "bloatware" sounds like it describes a group of programs that share a task of over-praising the product.

Just the other day I had a misfortune of my HDD passing away (I'll admit I used an insiders info that was actually published here in audioholics on which brand of HDD to purchase next) I lost an enormous amount of data and it seems retrieving it is a distant dream. But I installed WIN7 again. I really like that OS and the fans had enough time to sniff out all the adjustments you can now use.

But I'm beginning to like Foobar.

 

[slipperybidness]

It's not that I wouldn't agree on other "privacy killers" but I don't use Google and smartphones. I was, to the shame of me talked into facebook "for work" as they said. I do regret it.

If you know of a decent forum where they explain how to get rid of all or most bloatware, I'm up for some reading.

BTW "bloatware" sounds like it describes a group of programs that share a task of over-praising the product.

Just the other day I had a misfortune of my HDD passing away (I'll admit I used an insiders info that was actually published here in audioholics on which brand of HDD to purchase next) I lost an enormous amount of data and it seems retrieving it is a distant dream. But I installed WIN7 again. I really like that OS and the fans had enough time to sniff out all the adjustments you can now use.

But I'm beginning to like Foobar.

Foobar is great!

The problem with running an older OS is that the day will come that the OS is not supported any longer, meaning no updates or security patches. So, a new security vulnerability WILL pop up for an older OS, and good ole MS will not offer any patch to fix it. XP has been put out to pasture in this manner, and XP was an excellent OS. The recent Wannacry ransomeware was so widespread and such a problem, that MS actually broke their policy and sent a patch for XP. I'm not sure if they have ever done that in the past.

You really need to get an external HDD and put all of your important files, pics, vids, etc on that external drive! And, you should really put that external drive in a fire safe, or store it at a friend's house. A HDD failure is fairly common, and it "should" be trivial to recover from that. Every time my PC fails, I get an upgrade. Furthermore, I'm a fan of a complete OS re-install from scratch about every 5 or 6 years, just consider it as routine maintenance, and an external HDD is critical for that task.

Of course, nowadays the big push is "store it in the cloud"

 

[killdozzer]

Is there a right and wrong way to set this (other than "go with what you like best")?

It was set to "apply gain" and the sound went terribly muddy (I know, not much use of these adjectives). It was like too warm. Setting it to none made it clear, compact, punchy (in a good way)...

Perhaps warmth came from too much gain, as I suppose my laptop processor adds some as well:

I use 'external processor in' on my AVR to bypass all the DSP's. I'm interested if there's a possibility of overload or some damage to any part of my equipment? That's why I ask if there's a right way to set this up rather than what I like.

 

[MrBoat]

Furthermore, I'm a fan of a complete OS re-install from scratch about every 5 or 6 years, just consider it as routine maintenance, and an external HDD is critical for that task.

Of course, nowadays the big push is "store it in the cloud"

I agree completely about the HD wipe every so often. More frequently for those who install/uninstall a lot.

My boss' computers at work are so screwed and he keeps asking me to fix them and I told him the only way is to format c: and start over. That after a 30 second look at his win registry. It would take me days just to edit and repair that comparatively. The other thing he doesn't do is delete emails, of which, possibly 60% are spam. There is no less than 8, specific malware removal programs, which in and of themselves, are malware programs, including all of the spawn files those programs have generated over the years. I honestly do not get the stubbornness with such things.

Most of this is from spastic clicking everything with the mouse, including popups. This is half of my attraction to Linux, just for that portion of 'icky' windows users. lol

 

[slipperybidness]

I agree completely about the HD wipe every so often. More frequently for those who install/uninstall a lot.

My boss' computers at work are so screwed and he keeps asking me to fix them and I told him the only way is to format c: and start over. That after a 30 second look at his win registry. It would take me days just to edit and repair that comparatively. The other thing he doesn't do is delete emails, of which, possibly 60% are spam. There is no less than 8, specific malware removal programs, which in and of themselves, are malware programs, including all of the spawn files those programs have generated over the years. I honestly do not get the stubbornness with such things.

Most of this is from spastic clicking everything with the mouse, including popups. This is half of my attraction to Linux, just for that portion of 'icky' windows users. lol

Yup, several times I have seen severe computer issues because certain people "just like clicking on things"

Yes malware and anti-virus software also uses quite a bit of CPU resources. In general, they just make your PC run slower. If you are fairly wise with your online browsing choices, avoid clicking on sketchy links, and know how to spot suspicious emails, then you really don't need AV software. Unfortunately, very little of the population falls into that category.

 

[MrBoat]

Yup, several times I have seen severe computer issues because certain people "just like clicking on things"

Yes malware and anti-virus software also uses quite a bit of CPU resources. In general, they just make your PC run slower. If you are fairly wise with your online browsing choices, avoid clicking on sketchy links, and know how to spot suspicious emails, then you really don't need AV software. Unfortunately, very little of the population falls into that category.

That, and don't add click-happy, gullible mail frwrd'rs to your email address book. My first request to those on my address book is, no frwrds or chain mails. I've been on the internet since '92'. I've pretty much seen everything to a high degree of ad nauseam. If you want to write me a letter, fine. Junk mail or clickbait stuff, save it for your social circle on FB, or others who are still in awe of such things.

 

[killdozzer]

I never use AV software and never had any viruses. It happened 15 years ago once or twice until I've learned, not anymore. All ads are blocked and I never click anything I wasn't looking for. Internet is a good place for men to use their natural tunnel vision. It's a jungle and you have to hunt, if it comes on its own it's probably poisonous.

Now, about that gain... I understand what it is and all, but can you overdo it, can it be harmful in a sense that a signal becomes too strong for any link in the chain?