Upgrading Subwoofers

[2channel lover]

The adjoining space does count, unless you can close some doors. I did some math above and came up with 5910 cu ft. I measured the hallway and adjoining room and calculated that in also.

All of what you're considering are great subs. You get a lot of bang for your buck with Hsu though.

Yeah...that's why I wasn't worried about the bdrm & bath up...so with the adjoining space that I can't close off, I'm easily in the 10k+ cu ft range.

My usage will probably stay weighted toward music and I do intend to use the subs when I'm in 2ch mode. The new mains get down to 33Hz so I'm thinking the way I cross them over, they will handle all of the mid bass.

 

[Pogre]

I use my subs in every channel mode. Even if the wife is watching Dr Phil.

That's a huge space and beyond my newb knowledge to give advice on given your unique layout with a loft. I'm trying to picture it and am wondering how close you'd be to the subs? The VTF-3's are pretty damned beefy. I wouldn't go any smaller though. If you're only wanting good sound in just the loft area... dunno. I'm thinking positioning them will be pretty critical. Maybe we could get @William Lemmerhirt, @shadyJ or @lovinthehd in here with some more educated replies.

 

[2channel lover]

I use my subs in every channel mode. Even if the wife is watching Dr Phil.

That's a huge space and beyond my newb knowledge to give advice on given your unique layout with a loft. I'm trying to picture it and am wondering how close you'd be to the subs? The VTF-3's are pretty damned beefy. I wouldn't go any smaller though. If you're only wanting good sound in just the loft area... dunno. I'm thinking positioning them will be pretty critical. Maybe we could get @William Lemmerhirt, @shadyJ or @lovinthehd in here with some more educated replies.

LOL.

The main floor is basically an open floorplan ranch with 3 bdrms down. The loft, bedrm/bath, and a bonus rm (you can close this off as well) over the garage are upstairs. They call them 1.5 story homes here. The overlook opening is a big problem. It's on the same wall as the TV/components...roughly 6' wide and 8' tall. I told the wife there was no reason to have it but she insisted we keep it.

Most of the experienced HT/Music guys have suggested the Fv15....after chatting with you I think I could maybe get away with the VTF3. I'm probably not going to do this again unless something breaks, so I might go with the Fv15 even if it is a little overkill.

The only seating there are two recliners basically (basically the wife and I now) and they are about 14' from the TV wall and maybe 13' from the LCR and the subs which are most likely going along that same wall similar to your configuration.

I've thought about moving the system into that bedroom up stairs, but I don't take much flak when I play it about 55dB which is good volume...when she's not home, 65-70 is about the max I go anyway.

 

[shadyJ]

Believe me, you are playing your system considerably louder than 55 dB. 55 dB is about as loud as if someone were talking very softly. It's like the background noise on a quiet day in a suburban neighborhood. 65 to 70 dB would be relatively quiet as well, that would be like soft background music at the doctor's office waiting room.

As for the Hsu and Rythmik subs, at 40 Hz and above, they have about the same capability. Since the Rythmik is tuned a bit deeper, it will have some more deep bass headroom, not a huge amount, but a significant amount, and it depends on what tuning mode you run any of these subs in. I would not run the FV15HP with only 1 port open, it loses too much headroom to make that worth it. If you want to compare them, here are some measurements scaled to be comparable: Hsu VTF-3 mk5 and VTF15h mk2 and Rythmk 1 port and 2 port mode.

 

[lovinthehd]

@2channel lover LOL don't look at me, in 10K cubic space I'd want at least four extremely capable subs. I use four large subs (smallest is a dual opposed 15") in 6500cuft. One good ported 15 would only be a good start....

It sounds like you have your volume scale in the Marantz set to absolute as opposed to relative....which is more an indication of an average level for movies (and not much of a reference for music due lack of standards), not it's potential peaks of up to 20 dB that the scales are referenced to. http://denon.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/136/~/relative-and-absolute-volume-ranges

 

[2channel lover]

Believe me, you are playing your system considerably louder than 55 dB. 55 dB is about as loud as if someone were talking very softly. It's like the background noise on a quiet day in a suburban neighborhood. 65 to 70 dB would be relatively quiet as well, that would be like soft background music at the doctor's office waiting room.

As for the Hsu and Rythmik subs, at 40 Hz and above, they have about the same capability. Since the Rythmik is tuned a bit deeper, it will have some more deep bass headroom, not a huge amount, but a significant amount, and it depends on what tuning mode you run any of these subs in. I would not run the FV15HP with only 1 port open, it loses too much headroom to make that worth it. If you want to compare them, here are some measurements scaled to be comparable: Hsu VTF-3 mk5 and VTF15h mk2 and Rythmk 1 port and 2 port mode.

No wonder the wife hasn't been complaining!!

I learn something new nearly everytime I log in here. So the volume numbers on AV do not equate to dB...they are just numbers.

Noted and thanks...on both issues.

 

[2channel lover]

@2channel lover LOL don't look at me, in 10K cubic space I'd want at least four extremely capable subs. I use four large subs (smallest is a dual opposed 15") in 6500cuft. One good ported 15 would only be a good start....

It sounds like you have your volume scale in the Marantz set to absolute as opposed to relative....which is more an indication of an average level for movies (and not much of a reference for music due lack of standards), not it's potential peaks of up to 20 dB that the scales are referenced to. http://denon.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/136/~/relative-and-absolute-volume-ranges

Wow.

WOW!!!!

Oooooh boy!

Those openings have that much impact you think...I think I will start with two and see what happens....Wow!

Also will upload a pic or two of the space as well to give you a true visual.

 

[shadyJ]

Oh, I thought you were going to get duals of either of these? If not, you will want to in that large of a space. Duals at the very least. You will want to try different placements to get the most out of them as well. And whatever you get, I would think about running it in 2 ports open mode for the most headroom.

 

[lovinthehd]

Wow.

WOW!!!!

Oooooh boy!

Those openings have that much impact you think...I think I will start with two and see what happens....Wow!

Also will upload a pic or two of the space as well to give you a true visual.

Yes, at least start with duals. Subs "see" the entire volume of space available to them (to an extent with openings to adjacent spaces depending on the opening, but open floor plans are harder on subwoofage needs). Pics always help, tho.

Depends on your goals for the sub in terms of extension (how low) and spl levels as to what subwoofage to aim for. It takes quite a bit of subwoofage to pressurize your space to reference levels, but listening at sub-reference levels should be a bit cheaper

 

[Pogre]

The FV15 is tuned a little deeper, but not by a huge amount as Shady said. If money weren't the overriding factor I would probably go with those. If there's a chance I'd be adding a couple more and want to save a few bennies I'd go with Hsu.

IMO the difference in tuning isn't a deal killer. I don't think it would be that much a difference for me to justify the extra money. They're both using the same or similar amplifier power and driver sizes. I have the VTF-3's and can vouch for their legitimacy. These babies can make the walls rumble in my large space. Sometimes I have to fix a clock the keeps vibrating crooked during some movie scenes. I'm really in it more for music though, and they shine there as well. I don't watch a lot of tv.

 

[2channel lover]

Oh, I thought you were going to get duals of either of these? If not, you will want to in that large of a space. Duals at the very least. You will want to try different placements to get the most out of them as well. And whatever you get, I would think about running it in 2 ports open mode for the most headroom.

No definitely two subs

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Yeah, 2 sub minimum. The rythmiks have a little edge, but I think 2channel isn't ready for splitting hairs yet, so the value might be with Dr. "shoe". That way, when he buys two more, it will be easier to swallow.(and sell to mamma!) Lol!
I also wouldn't go chasing low teens(hz) either, and stay with stick porting. If you end up with 4, maybe experiment then, since the listening level is not insane.

 

[2channel lover]

Pics always help, tho.

From L to R.

• TV/component wall is 17'w note overlook to main flr,
  
• Main seating is 11'w & 14' from TV wall,
  
• Shot from hall/stairway shows cased opening to bath/bedrm,
  
• Final pic shows opening to hall/stairs to 1st flr

 

[2channel lover]

The FV15 is tuned a little deeper, but not by a huge amount as Shady said. If money weren't the overriding factor I would probably go with those. If there's a chance I'd be adding a couple more and want to save a few bennies I'd go with Hsu.

IMO the difference in tuning isn't a deal killer. I don't think it would be that much a difference for me to justify the extra money. They're both using the same or similar amplifier power and driver sizes. I have the VTF-3's and can vouch for their legitimacy. These babies can make the walls rumble in my large space. Sometimes I have to fix a clock the keeps vibrating crooked during some movie scenes. I'm really in it more for music though, and they shine there as well. I don't watch a lot of tv.

Yeah, with this talk of 4...HSU is sounding much better right about now!

 

[shadyJ]

These guys might be understating just how powerful these subs are. Four 15" Hsu or Rythmiks in a room like that will pound harder than you would ever use. Also your place looks nice, and four huge black boxes might screw up the aesthetics. It might be a bit pricey, but you might look at a rosewood VTF15h. I think it would fit in that decor better than the VTF-3 or FV15HP. Then again, it is such a long sub I am not sure where you would put it without it badly sticking out. The VTF-3 is quite a bit shallower, so maybe it could fit on the sides of the credenza type thing without sticking out far. I would do mock ups and figure out placement before you pull the trigger on any of these subs. They might be a bit larger than you imagine.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

After seeing it, and considering the wood floor, I'd think two would work plenty good. I was thinking this space was on concrete. That makes a big difference. I also wonder if that "cubby" the LP is in wouldn't have some of its own type of cabin gain.
And yeah, mock ups are good.

 

[Pogre]

The VTF-3's were bigger than I expected, but they still work with my rig.

I was picturing a wide open loft. More like a platform. I'm with Shady and William in thinking 2 will do the trick up there. That's a very nice looking room you have there.

 

[lovinthehd]

In that room and your stated use two may work well enough, but perhaps if all you're concerned with is that couch seat perhaps one might do it. I'd pull that couch back off the wall (not good to have your listening position right at the wall like that) and could be a nice place for a sub (your Marantz should do well with two differently placed subs via Audyssey SubEQ/XT32).

Maybe make a pair of sub cabinets that look like end tables Sealed subs will be smaller and less obtrusive, might give up some power for 20hz range for movies vs ported. Decisions decisions

 

[2channel lover]

These guys might be understating just how powerful these subs are. Four 15" Hsu or Rythmiks in a room like that will pound harder than you would ever use. Also your place looks nice, and four huge black boxes might screw up the aesthetics. It might be a bit pricey, but you might look at a rosewood VTF15h. I think it would fit in that decor better than the VTF-3 or FV15HP. Then again, it is such a long sub I am not sure where you would put it without it badly sticking out. The VTF-3 is quite a bit shallower, so maybe it could fit on the sides of the credenza type thing without sticking out far. I would do mock ups and figure out placement before you pull the trigger on any of these subs. They might be a bit larger than you imagine.

Thanks for your insight as well.

Four subs did sound extreme to mean as well. I get the openings to the other areas and how they need to be factored but two was all that I was considering.

More info...what we did not see in those pics. I took out a paradigm ps1200 sub that was in between the speaker on the left and the console table. It was quite a large box. The intent was to put both subs along that wall but I recognize that might not be the best location. I have attic space above in the so while I'm installing the atmos speakers if I need to drop wires down the wall to the back of the room and move the dual recliner forward I'm open to that.

The chair and ottoman...those are not staying. My son will be taking those when he moves out.

Credenza/console table...this will be replaced. As of now I'm deciding on something like this.
http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/products/details/bf6975ea-4577-16c7-9a3b-5125e32440be

Or something in this family that might go where the chair and ottomman are and purchase a stand for the center channel.
http://www.salamanderdesigns.com/products/details/91d2e024-a66c-f20a-9cb5-5125e28270f2

Mockup...agreed...I do have one. I'll upload that after work today.

I'm 60% set on Salk Sound LCR, (Song 3 or Veracity ST) which I can get to match the new rack or cabinet. The other speaker still in the running is the Revel F208 so I might be best served to stay with black on the subs but open to the cherry.

***WAF*** is in play, but not a great deal, this is basically an elevated man cave. Wife will only come up for movies probably on weekends...when my daughter comes by, she loves this area...the power dual recliners have the memory foam cushions so they are super comfy.

Thanks again for all of the insight thus far!

 

[2channel lover]

In that room and your stated use two may work well enough, but perhaps if all you're concerned with is that couch seat perhaps one might do it. I'd pull that couch back off the wall (not good to have your listening position right at the wall like that) and could be a nice place for a sub (your Marantz should do well with two differently placed subs via Audyssey SubEQ/XT32).

Maybe make a pair of sub cabinets that look like end tables Sealed subs will be smaller and less obtrusive, might give up some power for 20hz range for movies vs ported. Decisions decisions

Couch position...no problem pulling it away from the wall a few feet. That was already in the plans to put the rear surrounds in...the space is totally carpet...(for now) hardwoods may be in the plans in the future but I don't see that happening for a few years.

Yeah I've held off any use of Audyssey for now since I'm still in build out mode, but I have the hardware in the box ready. Because music is likely to stay my primary use, If I had to make a decision today from what I've gathered here I think a pair of the VTF15 would be the choice and save the $600 over the FV15.