Upgrading from AV123 ELT525T's...

[exospire]

I recently upgraded from an Onkyo TX-SR707 to a Denon AVR-2312CI and was disappointed because I was expecting an increase in imaging, clarity, and SQ. Over the next week I began realizing that no matter how many times I compared the same song, or same movie passage between the Onkyo and Denon, they both sounded remarkably similar. And then I realized if I want better imaging, fidelity, clarity... I need to upgrade my speakers (and most likely return the Denon).

I'm still using AV123 ELT525 in my media room from the Black Friday sale they had when the entire 5.0 setup was about $800. I'm in an apartment now and haven't used the monitors for over a year, and just sold them today actually. I still have the AV123 ELT525T and ELT525C.

I love the ELT525T for music... nothing ever sounds fatiguing, I can listen for hours to what I perceive to be smooth sound. For movies, they have been pretty good to me, although I stopped using the ELT525C because I always founds the dialogue hard to understand.

I'm at a point where I want better sound. I don't know how the AV123 ELT525 series stacks up against competitors, but I have a feeling there are some gems out there waiting for me to hear.

I'm in college so I don't have a lot of money to spend. I'd like to start at $900 max for a pair of FRONTS. I have a couple speakers in mind, but I'm down for anything as long as they are far from fatiguing/harsh/bright/forward... whatever you want to call it.

For my budget, I'm wondering if I should be looking at monitors over towers.

So far the Ascend Acoustics Sierra 1 and Aperion Audio Verus Grand Bookshelves sound good. I've read reviews for both and they read very good.

I guess I'm looking for opinions and if these would truly be an upgrade from my AV123 ELT525T's.

 

[shadyJ]

I would take a look at the NHT Classic Three, which might be my first choice for a bookshelf speaker at that price point. The Sierras ought to be great too, but I think that the three-way NHTs with a larger woofer might be able to stay cleaner at louder levels. However, if you don't need loud volumes, that might be a moot point.

 

[exospire]

I've seen the Classic Three recommended before, I was just never sure if the aluminum tweeter would give me the smooth highs I crave. Reading reviews they do sound like a very neutral speaker though.

So there's the Sierra-1, Aperion Verus Grand Bookshelves, and the NHT Classic Three.

Am I right in assuming it would be better to invest $800-900 in bookshelves for fronts rather than $800-900 towers? (ignoring the used market).

And would any of the mentioned speakers be an upgrade to my AV123 ELT525 towers?

 

[zieglj01]

I've seen the Classic Three recommended before, I was just never sure if the aluminum tweeter would give me the smooth highs I crave. Reading reviews they do sound like a very neutral speaker though.
Am I right in assuming it would be better to invest $800-900 in bookshelves for fronts rather than $800-900 towers? (ignoring the used market).

There is no guarantee that a metal dome tweeter will be harsh sounding.
The speakers performace in general, will come down to their design and
engineering. I have owned metal tweeter speakers that are more smooth,
over other soft dome tweeter speakers. NHT does a good job, with their
metal tweeters.

On average, I will pick a good bookshelf over a tower speaker, with the
same list price.

 

[exospire]

Ah, good to know

I've been reading more about the Sierra-1, and I've uncovered reports of it being on the bright side, from 2007 and 2008... not sure if the current version is any different, and not sure if they were using the Nhr tweeter or not. One of the sources was some 20 person blind listening get together, where the Swan D2.1 I think it was, came out on top.

I wish there was an internet speaker database equivalence to IMDB for movies, where speakers were rated on a number of qualities including warmth/brightness.

Another thread said that there wasn't much of a night and day difference between the Sierra-1 and AV123 ELT525 towers, with the towers being smoother. Makes me go ARGH!

Here are some user quotes I found while googling ELT525 vs Ascend Sierra

I do have one criticism of the Sierra's so far...they are less forgiving than the ELT when it comes to poorly recorded source material. One thing that has been buggin the crap out of me with the Sierra's is sibilance during some movies or tv shows - it happens much more often with tv though. I never noticed this as much with the ELT setup...but I will admit that I was concerned the Sierra's might sound bright before I heard them...so it's possible I'm also paying more attention now.

The ELT towers were fuller sounding in the midrange, and have a nice smooth high end and respectable low end. Overall, they really are a nicely balanced speaker that is easy to listen to.

 

[theJman]

If you're looking for bookshelf speakers to use as the front left and right a few others that might be worth considering are:

• Source Loudspeakers 1.6 WC
• Definitive Technology StudioMonitor 65
• KEF iQ30 or Q300
• Martin Logan LX16
• Swan D1.1se

 

[exospire]

If you're looking for bookshelf speakers to use as the front left and right a few others that might be worth considering are:

• Source Loudspeakers 1.6 WC
• Definitive Technology StudioMonitor 65
• KEF iQ30 or Q300
• Martin Logan LX16
• Swan D1.1se

Is the Swan D2.1 an upgrade to the D1.1? Right now they are both the same price.

The Martin Logan's look very nice, I've never heard that kind of tweeter before, any idea how it would be for electronic/rock music? If anything, I prefer a laid back midrange/highs, but I don't want to sacrifice detail.

I emailed local dealers and here's what one quoted me: B&W 684 Towers for $1100. The Revel F12 Speakers at $1500.00, Revel’s smaller Bookshelf M12 speakers w/ Stands for a little less than $1000. And GoldenEar Aon 3 Bookshelf speakers for $1000. All of the dealers here also seem to carry Sunfire and Paradigm

 

[sholling]

I've been reading more about the Sierra-1, and I've uncovered reports of it being on the bright side, from 2007 and 2008... not sure if the current version is any different, and not sure if they were using the Nhr tweeter or not.

I wouldn't describe Sierra-1s as bright unless the listener is used to recessed or severely rolled off highs. I think a better description is very neutral with detailed but ever so slightly rolled off highs. I've heard the Sierra-1 and the the Sierra-1 NrT side by side and the NrT upgrade extends those highs but at least to my ear they aren't at all bright.

 

[Matt34]

I would also give the RBH MC-6Cs a look as well.

RBH Sound MC-6C Bookshelf Speaker Review — Reviews and News from Audioholics

 

[theJman]

Is the Swan D2.1 an upgrade to the D1.1? Right now they are both the same price.

I'm not sure actually. I happened to notice they were on sale, and the price seemed pretty reasonable for that level of quality.

The Martin Logan's look very nice, I've never heard that kind of tweeter before, any idea how it would be for electronic/rock music? If anything, I prefer a laid back midrange/highs, but I don't want to sacrifice detail.

Rarely will you hear someone describe a ribbon tweeter as 'laid back'. Most often words like 'airy', 'crisp', 'clear' etc. are what you'll hear mentioned. If you perfer highs a bit less prevalent then a ribbon may not be for you.

 

[alphaiii]

Ah, good to know

I've been reading more about the Sierra-1, and I've uncovered reports of it being on the bright side, from 2007 and 2008... not sure if the current version is any different, and not sure if they were using the Nhr tweeter or not. One of the sources was some 20 person blind listening get together, where the Swan D2.1 I think it was, came out on top.

I wish there was an internet speaker database equivalence to IMDB for movies, where speakers were rated on a number of qualities including warmth/brightness.

Another thread said that there wasn't much of a night and day difference between the Sierra-1 and AV123 ELT525 towers, with the towers being smoother. Makes me go ARGH!

Here are some user quotes I found while googling ELT525 vs Ascend Sierra

I think those quotes are mine from awhile ago. I replied to your post at AVS, but will add a bit here:

Let me say that, since then, I've learned alot about what I'm hearing when I demo speakers.

I'd stand by what I said then, that the 525T's treble seemed smoother, but at the expense of being less detailed. What I'd probably correct is that the 525T is fuller in the upper bass/lower midrange, but not necessarily in a good way.

Check out my post (#32) here, which I think sums up my thoughts on them both:
Notes on comparison - Energy RC-10, TCA WAF-1, AV123 ELT525M

 

[j_garcia]

I've listened to the ELT525M along side the Ascend CMT340SE and I have to say, the ELTs held their own. I found the 525s to be pretty neutral and had a nice midrange, and I would say smoother is one of the reasons.

I haven't heard these, but they are the successor to the ELS-3, a fine speaker. I'd try to find a dealer and give them a listen: ELS 8 | Epos Acoustics

If you may be into a little DIY, the GR Research A/V-2s are in the same $1K price range if you buy built cabinets, a lot less if you can build them yourself.

GR also have the N series which feature ribbon tweeters that are pretty much the only ones I've heard that I would characterize as truly smooth.

 

[j_garcia]

Forgot to mention, if you were happy with the ELTs, you will like the GRs. Awesome midrange and super smooth, clean highs. I am fairly certain the ELTs were designed by the same guy and yes, they are an upgrade from the ELTs even without the sonicap crossover upgrade. There's a reason why I own 10 speakers from Danny (5 A/V-1s, 5 A/V-2s) This year I may be building some fully upgraded N1s or N1Xs.

 

[exospire]

Let me say that, since then, I've learned alot about what I'm hearing when I demo speakers.

I feel the same in the car audio field. I had always run the usual Alpine/Sony stuff from big box stores, but then I took a gamble and tried Hertz (after weeks of forum research), initially their 2nd level speakers, and then their top level speakers, the Hertz MLK 165, as I discussed in the other thread. They were so open, and all of a sudden I could hear everything, yet they sounded smoother than anything I had ever heard before, even at high volumes.

I haven't heard these, but they are the successor to the ELS-3, a fine speaker. I'd try to find a dealer and give them a listen: ELS 8 | Epos Acoustics

They look great but their site only lists UK dealers. I found the USA distributor so maybe I'll email them and see what they say. I'd love to hear the GR Research but I'm not sure about DIY territory yet.

I'm still doing a lot of research and sifting through reviews, including the RBH MC-6Cs. I appreciate all the responses, I definitely have some great options to think about. Whatever I end up getting, I will be sure to post my thoughts.

As I mentioned before, my biggest fear is getting a speaker that is too revealing. Since I watch nearly all my movies and TV on streaming sites like Hulu and Netflix, the audio quality is subpar compared to DD/DTS of set top boxes, so I want to make sure whatever I end up getting retains some of the smoothness that I love in my ELT525T's. My music is 90% FLAC or Apple Lossless, but even then, a lot of my music consists of not-so-heard of bands that don't have top-notch studio equipment (Baths, Neon Indian, Twin Shadow, The Chromatics, Lissie, Empire of the Sun... and a lot of electronic, new wave synthy stuff)

 

[pureiso]

Forgot to mention, if you were happy with the ELTs, you will like the GRs. Awesome midrange and super smooth, clean highs. I am fairly certain the ELTs were designed by the same guy and yes, they are an upgrade from the ELTs even without the sonicap crossover upgrade. There's a reason why I own 10 speakers from Danny (5 A/V-1s, 5 A/V-2s) This year I may be building some fully upgraded N1s or N1Xs.

I will second this as well. Danny has a trial in home demo for his N2X and N1X, literally weeks of free listening and all you do is pay the shipping to the next guy.

I tested the N2X, extremely smooth speakers without any form of EQ and the sweet spot is enormous. However, I would invest in the N3, the dual woofers will bring the distortion to almost nothing. Personally though, the O-3 definitely is the next on my list.

For a somewhat more marginal (and cheap) upgrade, you could go with the AV-123 X series speakers with the Encore tweeters. However, I will say the N2X and N3 will probably be a much better match for what you are looking for. The Encore tweeters in an untreated room can have some sharpness to them.

 

[exospire]

For a somewhat more marginal (and cheap) upgrade, you could go with the AV-123 X series speakers with the Encore tweeters. However, I will say the N2X and N3 will probably be a much better match for what you are looking for. The Encore tweeters in an untreated room can have some sharpness to them.

Are you talking about the X-LS Encore Bookshelf Speakers? Because if so, I have them in my office connected to my office comp through an Onkyo 506, and I LOVE them

I will second this as well. Danny has a trial in home demo for his N2X and N1X, literally weeks of free listening and all you do is pay the shipping to the next guy.

I will check this out. These are DIY or do they come in the cabinets?

 

[pureiso]

Are you talking about the X-LS Encore Bookshelf Speakers? Because if so, I have them in my office connected to my office comp through an Onkyo 506, and I LOVE them



I will check this out. These are DIY or do they come in the cabinets?

Yes, the X-LS Encores. Awesome speakers, used you can get them for almost nothing now...

They are DIY, however, they are not hard to make. The crossover and the box are the biggest hurdles but he is willing to help on any step. I think he will even assemble the crossover for a charge. The bookshelf speakers are also designed to fit right into a Parts Express box, all you have to do is cut out the woofer/tweeter holes. Even further than that, quite a few people on the GR Research audiocircle forum make praiseworthy cabinets, just expect to pay quite a bit for them.

Speaking of which, all the GR Research speakers use the same midrange as the X-LS, so you already know how it should sound. The Neo tweeters are a definite upgrade from the Encore tweeter though. But the way I (and Danny) would rank the speakers: N Series > X Series > AV Series. Of course, this can swap depending on if you go with higher quality crossover parts and dampen the cabinets with No Rez or the homemade solution similar to it.

 

[j_garcia]

Danny doesn't do crossover building anymore, I asked him But there are other places that might build them for a charge. The boxes can be bought in various finishes and curved or straight from Parts Express, so you'd essentially be assembling, but there are some fine details that need to be done on the front baffles for the drivers to sit correctly that would require a router.

The woofers in GR speakers are specially built for Danny and AFAIK, he is the only source for them as they are not an off the shelf item. The ones in the X series are a similar model, but an off the shelf one. The X series are a step down from the A/V series, mainly due to them being designed for a price point lower than the A/V series, even without the sonicap upgrade. So some of the difference is simply that the components used in the X series are not quite up to the same level as what are found in the GRs IMO. With upgrades, the X series can sound pretty amazing though. I've had the X-series in my system at the same time as my GRs and I was really impressed (but not surprised because they were designed by Danny) that you can get that kind of sound at that price point.

 

[pureiso]

Danny doesn't do crossover building anymore, I asked him But there are other places that might build them for a charge. The boxes can be bought in various finishes and curved or straight from Parts Express, so you'd essentially be assembling, but there are some fine details that need to be done on the front baffles for the drivers to sit correctly that would require a router.

The woofers in GR speakers are specially built for Danny and AFAIK, he is the only source for them as they are not an off the shelf item. The ones in the X series are a similar model, but an off the shelf one. The X series are a step down from the A/V series, mainly due to them being designed for a price point lower than the A/V series, even without the sonicap upgrade. So some of the difference is simply that the components used in the X series are not quite up to the same level as what are found in the GRs IMO. With upgrades, the X series can sound pretty amazing though. I've had the X-series in my system at the same time as my GRs and I was really impressed (but not surprised because they were designed by Danny) that you can get that kind of sound at that price point.

My bad, I forgot to mention it has to be the Encore version of the X-Series speakers that are considered (in stock form) to be marginally better than the A/V series. The Encore in stock form have poly caps, and all are bypassed with Gen 2 Sonicaps. The tweeter has also been given the nod as marginally better than the GR Research tweeter in the A/V series.

N Series>Encore X Series>A/V>standard X series

Of course, some people may like the sound of the GR Research tweeters more. But this is just going off from what even Danny has stated.

Encore Speakers:
X-LS Encore
X-CS Encore
X-Omni
X-Voce
X-Statik

I think that was all of them with the upgraded tweeter and better crossover.

Edit: The crossover on both the A/V and the Encore have bypass caps. So the only real difference is the Tweeter, not a huge difference. The N series does have the better woofer as well. Best option overall, if he is interested in DIY effort.

 

[j_garcia]

There's also the difference between the 6-1/2 M165 and the 5-1/4 M130 drivers. I prefer the M130 to the M165 from GR and also felt the X series might have benefited from going with a 5 1/4 vs a 6 1/2 for better midrange instead of more bass. The Encores are definitely better than the original X series.

The N series has the option of using the XBL driver. That's the difference between the models - N1 = standard M130, N1X = XBL driver and the same for the N2/N2X.