Upgrade Recommendations?

[ryouiki]

Looking for some feedback on potential subwoofer upgrades... managed to replace nearly everything else in the system over the last few months (new pre-pro, amplifier, speakers, etc.), and now trying to figure out what to do for this final piece.

Existing subwoofers were bought on the cheap years ago and leave a quite a lot to be desired (REW shows them dropping like a rock at about 26Hz in room, with nasty port noise). Room is about 2400 cubic feet / is not open to anything, and extensively insulated. I am looking to go dual, and trying to stay within $2000.

I've looked at quite a few different models thus far, and found a few that I'm gravitating toward, but would rather hear any suggestions first from somewhat of a clean slate.

I am not looking for frighten the neighbors type output, as to be honest I tend to listen at relatively low volumes the vast majority of the time anyway.

 

[lovinthehd]

Willing to DIY?

 

[shadyJ]

How big is your room? If you aren't interested in really loud bass, just get a couple 12" subs. I would be looking at the 12"s from Outlaw, Hsu, Rythmik, SVS, RBH. You can save a little money as well, use it for an equalizer for the subs like miniDSP.

 

[ryouiki]

Hmmm,

While I really enjoy DIY type stuff, and am fairly confident I could produce something that is more than acceptable from a functional perspective, I just don't' think I could end up with a finished product that I would be happy with. Anything that requires painting/staining/or any other kind of aesthetic finishing I shouldn't be anywhere near... it always turns into a disaster.

 

[ryouiki]

How big is your room? If you aren't interested in really loud bass, just get a couple 12" subs. I would be looking at the 12"s from Outlaw, Hsu, Rythmik, SVS, RBH. You can save a little money as well, use it for an equalizer for the subs like miniDSP.

Roughly 16x14x10, though the short wall has an entry way that probably measures and additional 3x4x10.

Loud/room shaking is not what I am after, more of something that will blend with the mains well (which are pretty inefficient/can't really get too loud anyway), and but can actually dig deep if needed.

I have 2 12" right now, but... not sure how to explain it... I know some tracks/movies are going lower then they can muster, and they are very sloppy everywhere else.

 

[shadyJ]

Roughly 16x14x10, though the short wall has an entry way that probably measures and additional 3x4x10.

Loud/room shaking is not what I am after, more of something that will blend with the mains well (which are pretty inefficient/can't really get too loud anyway), and but can actually dig deep if needed.

I have 2 12" right now, but... not sure how to explain it... I know some tracks/movies are going lower then they can muster, and they are very sloppy everywhere else.

The subs I listed are all tuned to around 20 Hz or so, so they all dig deep. None of them will be sloppy, they are all well-engineered subwoofers by some of the best subwoofer designers.

One thing to keep in mind about sloppy bass is it might merely be room acoustics screwing up the response. Can you post your REW graph? What subwoofers do you have? Are there other locations in the room that they can be placed? If there is a bad peak in the sound, the solution might be just to EQ the peak down, not buy new subs.

 

[ryouiki]

Having the worst time getting REW to work this morning... between it, pre-pro, TV, and my Mac bickering about HDMI output, not liking the port noise these things are making, and image export acting goofy... I'll give it a shot anyway:

This is the "left" sub, placed approximately mid wall opposite the other one. I started at corners, and moved further along the wall until it wasn't so darn boomy at the listening position.

Audyssey is off/but I believe crossover is still engaged at 80hz.

 

[lovinthehd]

What are your current subs' make/model?

 

[ryouiki]

Also known as the 2012 Newegg special.... I bought two of them during the closeout sale ($299) to replace existing sub that had amplifier failure.

http://images.klipsch.com/RW12d_635042119514590000.pdf

 

[lovinthehd]

Have one of those myself. Yes, down low if pushed hard they can make funky noises. I had to remove the cheap grill for some of the noises not coming from the port, but I'd think they'd be fine for the majority of your use at lower levels....how did you choose placement, though? I've seen better frequency responses posted for these subs.

In any case you have tons of choices for the money you can spend....look around at Power Sound Audio, Hsu, Rythmik, SVS, etc....

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Is this the left sub only? The roll off matches the FR spec at 24hz. Your definitely missing out on some low end punctuation. I'm gonna guess that 58hz peak is from the 10' room height mode. Only way to help that is EQ I think. As far as the sloppiness, I would say that's due the quality of the klipsch subs in general. They're not known for making great subs and that's in part due to lack of driver control and a higher Q design. They're just not very linear, and controlled.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/FVX15.html
I'd take a look here at rythmik. These fvx's are $999.00 each. Can't remember what their multiple discount is off hand.(5% iirc)

 

[ryouiki]

....how did you choose placement, though? I've seen better frequency responses posted for these subs.

Placement has been somewhat challenging... there is not much leeway in listening position (few feet in each direction) while still maintaining some type of reasonable distance from the TV and still having room for surrounds. Basically pushed the MLP as far as I could to keep it out of what seems to be a nasty null in the dead center of all the equipment. At this point it is actually further back when I would like from current TV... but it is workable until I upgrade that at the end of the year.

I experimented with subwoofer crawl... the corners and front wall are very "boomy"/reinforced... it was not smooth at all. So ended up on the side walls, and then moving 6 inches at a time and looking at the sweeps.

The "left" wall subwoofer is much better then the right side... there isn't anywhere on the right side I can find that doesn't have a massive dip in around 40-60hz (I would have to go back and recheck graphs). I might try moving it along the back wall, but I'll have to order a cheap cable that is long enough to test that first/before I start running cables through the ceiling/walls.

 

[lovinthehd]

Have you tried in or near opposite corners (front vs back of room)?

 

[shadyJ]

Having the worst time getting REW to work this morning... between it, pre-pro, TV, and my Mac bickering about HDMI output, not liking the port noise these things are making, and image export acting goofy... I'll give it a shot anyway:

This is the "left" sub, placed approximately mid wall opposite the other one. I started at corners, and moved further along the wall until it wasn't so darn boomy at the listening position.

View attachment 20088

Audyssey is off/but I believe crossover is still engaged at 80hz.

Thanks for taking that measurement for us. That response isn't all that bad, except for that bump just under 60 Hz, that would add some boom to your bass since it occurs at such a critical frequency. EQing down that peak might make a big difference. Could you post a waterfall graph of that measurement for us? I would be interested to see what else is happening.

 

[ryouiki]

Have you tried in or near opposite corners (front vs back of room)?

Opposite corners isn't possible the way I have things arranged.... the front right corner is where the equipment rack is/dedicated circuit for the amp. The other arrangement won't work because the back right corner is the entryway/door

Here is a terrible diagram:

 

[ryouiki]

Could you post a waterfall graph of that measurement for us? I would be interested to see what else is happening.

Nothing good that I can recall... the peaks go on and on and on.

I'll see if I can post something in the next day or two, I am unfortunately headed to work.

 

[ryouiki]

This is both current subs "integrated". Had to turn the volume down on these measurements so I don't piss anyone off again

 

[shadyJ]

While Audyssey does do a lot to improve the response, there is still room for improvement via equalization, specifically the hump between 50 and 60 Hz. It is not much of a bump though, only about 5 dB. I think at this point it worth it to step up to better subs, but further equalization wouldn't be a bad idea either, depending on how fussy you are about the quality of bass. If it were me, I would be looking at a couple Hsu VTF-3 mk5s and a miniDSP. The VTF-3s can run in sealed or ported operation so they should able to play well with your room no matter what. The miniDSP will have more EQ power than even Audyssey XT32, so you can get an even better response. All that would come in at a tad less than $2k. It will play a lot deeper, much more powerfully, and more accurately.

 

[ryouiki]

If it were me, I would be looking at a couple Hsu VTF-3 mk5s and a miniDSP. The VTF-3s can run in sealed or ported operation so they should able to play well with your room no matter what. The miniDSP will have more EQ power than even Audyssey XT32, so you can get an even better response. All that would come in at a tad less than $2k. It will play a lot deeper, much more powerfully, and more accurately.

The room itself needs to be addressed as well, it is quite bare at the moment which isn't helping much of anything... but that not an overnight process, and I plan on staying here for a long time so it will likely be a work in progress for quite some time.

That said, a couple of questions:

Since I have no experience first hand with either, how does a ULS15 mk2 compare to the VTF-3 mk5?

Regarding the miniDSP, are you talking about the 2x4? Do you apply that on top of Audyssey, or perhaps not let Auyssey calibrate the subs at all?

 

[lovinthehd]

Generally with a minidsp you would work with that before running Audyssey, not after (not sure which way you were going with "on top of" ); you wouldn't necessarily need Audyssey but many report good results using both. Minidsp 2x4 comes in several flavors, btw; unbalanced, balanced, HD (and either boxed or as a board/kit form).