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hizzaah

Full Audioholic
Looking to upgrade my humble set up here in the next few weeks. Been watchin deals on towers pop up (Infinity P363's. JBL ES80BK's, etc), but I'm not too sure which to go with. I know I should do the center at the same time too right? Btw, what ohm speakers am I capable of running? I'm a bit confused by the user manual.

Sub is keeping up well. I'm not able to crank it much as it makes the neighbors angry :/ just moved into this place and I already have an apartment for next year picked out with thick cinder block walls so I wont have complaints :p

What do you guys think? I don't really have an complaints per se, just have the itch to change something.. Trying to keep it under $300.

Receiver in the set is the Onkyo HT-R680.

Thanks guys
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Oh I can understand and sympathize with the upgrade itch! Oh yes indeed! :p

I'd caution you though that with a limited budget, you're often much better served in the long run by waiting, saving up, and only buying the highest value, "checkpoint" products that perform well above their price competition, and demand that you pay many multiples of their price in order to get anything truly "better".

That said, I fully understand the desire to just get something new and different, and wanting to do so on a budget :)

I'm a big, big fan of the Infinity Primus speakers, I really am. But I have to caution you that the P363 towers are not the easiest speakers to drive. They dip quite low in their impedance and they can be a problem for lower end receivers like yours because of that. I like their sound quality. I LOVE their low price. They ARE a "checkpoint" product in my book. But I'm not sure they're the best way to go in your particular case. I'd feel a lot more comfortable if you were using a more capable receiver to power them, that's for sure. :eek:

For your price, I'd be going right for some Ascend bookshelf speakers. They're "checkpoint" speakers for sure! Really, really accurate. Ascend's speakers are the sort that allow you to learn how to listen critically. They're a wonderful benchmark for comparison with other speakers. And the SEAS tweeter that's used in all the SE models is a big cut above anything close to their price, in my book. It's a wonderful, accurate, transparent tweeter :)

Three HTM-200 SE across the front (there's a dedicated center version) are a fantastic choice for a very wide variety of setups. The HTM-200 SE have a somewhat unique design that allows them to be wall mounted, stand mounted, bookshelf mounted, mounted in an entertainment unit, or placed close to a wall without drastically degrading their sound quality the way most speakers are affected by such less than optimal placements.

If you can place your speakers optimally, the CBM-170 SE are really a pillar of accuracy. And the big CMT-340 SE are perfect if you need LOUD output capabilities. All offer dedicated center versions. And all of the SE speakers match nicely in terms of voice and timbre.

If you just gotta have floor standing tower speakers though, and you can't swing the Ascend CMT-340 SE on their matching "tower"-look stands, check out the Pioneer SP-FS51 or SP-FS52. They're remarkably good, very inexpensive tower speakers that are a bit easier to drive than the Infinity P363 towers.

You don't HAVE to get a center at the same time. The center is the only speaker that you can actually do completely without! I've run several systems in the past with no center speaker. So long as your front L & R speakers can produce a good, convincing center image, you don't really need a center speaker. It's good to plan ahead though and buy front speakers that do have a matching center if you know you're going to want one at some point. Personally I hate nothing more in home theater than a center speaker that does not perfectly match the sound of the front L & R speakers! When a sound pans across the front, I want a PERFECT, seamless match. But I'm really anal about that :p Most people aren't as bothered by a less than perfect match as I am.

As for your neighbors complaining about your subwoofer: I can't recommend highly enough that you decouple your subwoofer from the floor!

When your sub makes sound, it also physically vibrates. With the sub sitting directly on the floor, those physical vibrations go right into the floor. And now they travel as structure-borne sound vibrations all over your apartment building! This transfer of energy into the very structure of your building is the reason why your neighbors can hear bass thumping away even when the higher frequencies are blocked. Decoupling your subwoofer (ie. putting some sort of shock absorber in between your subwoofer and the floor) alleviates this problem to a large degree!

Decoupling is not a panacea for bass problems. Obviously, the bass is still traveling through the air, and you're not going to block all of its sound from reaching your neighbors. But decoupling can make a very noticeable difference and really help a lot!

I always recommend the $50 Auralex GRAMMA or SubDude riser. I tend to recommend the larger GRAMMA , even if your current subwoofer will fit on the smaller SubDude because, hey, they're the same price. And if you ever upgrade to a larger subwoofer in the future, the GRAMMA will be ready ;)

FYI, the excellent HSU Research VTF-2 MK4 subwoofer fits PERFECTLY on the Auralex GRAMMA ;). The VTF-2 MK4 is my favorite $550 subwoofer at the moment. And it is the least expensive subwoofer that I consider capable of "doing it all", by which I mean that it can play right down to 20Hz, it can play quite loud, it can play without distortion, it's accurate, it has good, fast transient response, and it has a plethora of tuning and filter options so that it will work very well in almost any room to deliver flat, extended frequency responses. Just something to keep in mind when you're ready to upgrade your subwoofer ;)

Hope that helps!
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
In that price range, definitely the P363. I believe Fry's has them in-store for $99 each. In the under-$500 range, I think it is impossible to beat the P363.

My room where the P362 sit is 18' x 20' x 12'. I use the Denon 3312, no external amp. I set the speakers manually w/ SPL meter- channel levels set to 78dB from sitting spot, which is about 15ft.

For music and movies, I hardly ever turn the master volume knob to more than -20dB.

So in my personal experience, I find the P362 extremely easy to drive, contrary to the minimum impedance measurement.

Harman rates the P363 as 92dB/w/m sensitivity, and I believe them. Easy to drive in my experience.

Before I got the Denon 3312, I used a cheap $200 Pioneer AVR and then a $200 Denon AVR with the P362 in his same room. I gave them away to relatives. But even these cheap $200 AVR could drive the P362 to 94dB volume without any problem at all. That is very loud.
 
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hizzaah

Full Audioholic
Thanks for the recommendations guys! Gives me a bit more research to do.

I'm actually in a townhouse (one shared wall).. Their complaints were from when I was gone and my friend was staying here playin Xbox until 5am. He couldn't figure out how to turn the bass down so he ended up just unplugging the sub lol. I had the sub decoupled in my last apartment with a real classy piece I made out of styrofoam and electrical tape. Worked pretty well actually, I'll have to dig it out to see if that helps. It's currently on a few pieces thick rectangle of cardboard on the carpet so I'm sure it won't hurt.

P363's, the Ascend bookshelf speakers, Pioneer SP-FS51/52.. The Polk Monitor 60's and Martin Logan Motion 10 and Energy CF-30's also would come in under $300 when on sale at Newegg. How do those stack up?
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks for the recommendations guys! Gives me a bit more research to do.

I'm actually in a townhouse (one shared wall).. Their complaints were from when I was gone and my friend was staying here playin Xbox until 5am. He couldn't figure out how to turn the bass down so he ended up just unplugging the sub lol. I had the sub decoupled in my last apartment with a real classy piece I made out of styrofoam and electrical tape. Worked pretty well actually, I'll have to dig it out to see if that helps. It's currently on a few pieces thick rectangle of cardboard on the carpet so I'm sure it won't hurt.

P363's, the Ascend bookshelf speakers, Pioneer SP-FS51/52.. The Polk Monitor 60's and Martin Logan Motion 10 and Energy CF-30's also would come in under $300 when on sale at Newegg. How do those stack up?
I would focus on the 1st 3: Infinity, Pioneer, & Ascend. :D
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
Polk makes decent speakers at 10x your price point, Martin Logan at 7-8x times and Energy at 2-3x times...

That should give you an idea ;):rolleyes:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Harman rates the P363 as 92dB/w/m sensitivity, and I believe them. Easy to drive in my experience.
I agree with you that the 362s are easy to drive such that most entry level AVR can easily do the job in a small to medium size room. The specs of the 363 seem to be same as that of the 362.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Polk makes decent speakers at 10x your price point, Martin Logan at 7-8x times and Energy at 2-3x times...

That should give you an idea ;):rolleyes:
I guess the idea could be that for some reasons there seem to great deals to be found on the older model Energy speakers such as the RC series. Those will be a cut or 2 above the 363 and any Polk RTI/RTIA IMHO.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
So in my personal experience, I find the P362 extremely easy to drive, contrary to the minimum impedance measurement.

Harman rates the P363 as 92dB/w/m sensitivity, and I believe them. Easy to drive in my experience.
I agree with you that the 362s are easy to drive such that most entry level AVR can easily do the job in a small to medium size room. The specs of the 363 seem to be same as that of the 362.
They are only hard to drive in a very narrow frequency range. In order to really notice that you would have to be playing music pretty loud to begin with and then be very familiar with what is happening in the music at that particular frequency (~90 Hz). I think that's about where a kick drum does it's thing. IMO it wouldn't be that hard to identify a weak amp with those speakers. PENG can speak to the -45 degree phase angle at that frequency and how that affects power drawn from an amp. So while they will play loud due to their sensitivity they won't play all frequencies equally loud with weak amps that are not low Ohm stable.

Just my 2 cents but the bottom line for me is that those low cost speakers with an entry level amp will get you 90% of the way there as compared to a whole list of stuff that I can't afford.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
They are only hard to drive in a very narrow frequency range. In order to really notice that you would have to be playing music pretty loud to begin with and then be very familiar with what is happening in the music at that particular frequency (~90 Hz). I think that's about where a kick drum does it's thing. IMO it wouldn't be that hard to identify a weak amp with those speakers. PENG can speak to the -45 degree phase angle at that frequency and how that affects power drawn from an amp. So while they will play loud due to their sensitivity they won't play all frequencies equally loud with weak amps that are not low Ohm stable.

Just my 2 cents but the bottom line for me is that those low cost speakers with an entry level amp will get you 90% of the way there as compared to a whole list of stuff that I can't afford.
That's why I mentioned the size of room. I also took into account he seemed concerned about complaints. The 362 could sound a little bright for reasons you mentioned but only if they get pushed hard by weak amps, everything being in relative terms, that's my 0.2 cents.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Since PENG gave his P362s away, I think it's time for me to retire my good old P362s into the closet.....when the 2 SHO-10 land on my front porch. :eek:

Reason: I think my karaoke may benefit from these high efficiency horn speakers.

You guys do karaoke? :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
.... PENG can speak to the -45 degree phase angle at that frequency and how that affects power drawn from an amp. ....
This is where the famous power cube measurement technique used in The Audio Critic would be a great way to tell. It tests the amps capability to do up to 60 degree phase shifts and down to 1 ohm, how the rail voltage reacts.
Some big names didn't do so well as something like a Behringer that they posted on line.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
The old models were available at Best Buy (well, it may have been Frys?).

Does this mean Pioneer is going ID?
We're not in Kansas anymore! :eek:
The new ones are at Best Buy - the new tower is bigger
and looks nice - I have not auditioned it yet. Also, I am
thinking about getting the booksheves and taking them
home, for a shake down.
 
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