Uh oh did I just buy the wrong receiver?

[JohnT]

Hi everyone, thanks for your replies in advance. I'm really confused about all the numbers.

So my wife approved a budget of about $500 for speakers and a receiver. I stayed close................... close to $2,500 though. I felt like the more I purchased, the more I learned about it. And I'm wondering if I overbought speakers for the receiver.

I started with two bookshelf speakers for a 2.0 sound and a little itty bitty Yamaha 5.1 receiver that some knowledgeable staff member from Best Buy manager talked me into. Then I very quickly added a 12" subwoofer for 2.1, then added a massive center speaker for 3.1, and then I decided I need floor standing speakers for fronts and dedicated rear speakers for 5.1. Shoot! Now I have 7 speakers and a subwoofer, a 5.1 receiver, and a few questions.

Good news! I'm still married. Bad news is that I probably didn't spend enough time researching the numbers before I bought. My setup is listed below... (you might need to click on specs to see all the details in each page). The Klipsch Reference ii line had sort of reduced prices now that the Reference Premiere is available, plus I've been a Klipsch fan ever since the i-fi came out back around 2005. So I decided to upgrade.

Power ratings given in watts RMS from the websites. I can't post links apparently so I can only give model names.

Center: 150w RC-62 ii

Fronts: 125w RF-62 ii

Sides: 75w RB-51 ii

Rear: 75w RS-42 ii

I wanted slightly more powerful rear speakers, but the Klipsch Reference surround speakers are ridiculously expensive and then sky rocket in price for additional power. 100w RMS is $400 per speaker, and 150w RMS is $600 per speaker. No thanks!

Receiver: Yamaha RX-V477 (115w/channel) <~ biggest load of crap ever it's more like 80w/channel and probably even less for surround sound

Let me just say that this setup gets VERY LOUD, but I do feel like the noise is lacking just a little bit. I've heard many reviews say they get house shaking noise with 25% load from their receivers. I'm closer to 75% and it's still manageable... nothing is shaking. Plus I heard under-powered receivers are worse for speakers than overpowered. But I'm not sure if I bought too much speaker for my receiver.

I'm confused about what to do. Any insight would be helpful. If you suggest a new receiver, then I'd say $500 to $1,000 is my budget range. My minimum requirements are multiple HDMI inputs and at least one optical input. I'd like 5.1/5.2/7.2. I don't really care about 9.1, 11.1, 13.1, 19.1, or 62.1.4 (Atmos), but I like the idea of dual zone/multiple input to multiple output. This surround sound is connected to my gaming PC that we also use for blu-rays sometimes.

Sorry for the epistle.

 

[slipperybidness]

There is nothing wrong or underpowered on that Yammy reciever. Especially if you are driving Klipsch.

Now, it seems that you have 7 speakers but only 5 channels, that can be a problem.

Consider this--if the Yammy is 80WPC, then you need 160WPC to get 3dB gain in SPL.

What sub do you have? Likely, you need a "big boy" sub, get rid of that sub you bought from BB.

Also, have you tried any of the calibration/room correction features on that Yammy?

Edit: Some measurements on that Yammy are here
http://referencehometheater.com/review/yamaha-rx-v477-receiver-review/2/

 

[slipperybidness]

BTW, don't get caught up on the "volume dial position", it's pretty much arbitrary as long as you can indeed drive the speakers to satisfying levels for your tastes and habits.

Same deal for the "speaker power handling". In general, that is a pretty much useless spec.

 

[JohnT]

There is nothing wrong or underpowered on that Yammy reciever. Especially if you are driving Klipsch.

Now, it seems that you have 7 speakers but only 5 channels, that can be a problem.

Consider this--if the Yammy is 80WPC, then you need 160WPC to get 3dB gain in SPL.

What sub do you have? Likely, you need a "big boy" sub, get rid of that sub you bought from BB.

Also, have you tried any of the calibration/room correction features on that Yammy?

Edit: Some measurements on that Yammy are here <can't post links>

I appreciate your response. To clarify, I purchased the Yamaha receiver from BB.

My subwoofer is a Klipsch R-12SW. It's not spectacular compared to the fancy subs I've seen on the market, but I purchased it for $250 new from a local B&M store. It hits pretty hard for my taste. I'm considering adding a second one if I see it on sale again.

I've re-purposed the two extra speakers. I would use them if I had 7.1/7.2, but since I only have 5.1, I took the bookshelf RB-51 ii speakers downstairs for the television paired to a small Onkyo receiver.

I'm not sure I've seen any 160WPC receivers locally. The ratings are usually for a single channel, and the power ratings drop significantly when driving 5 channels. Hardly any manufacturer posts the WPC when driving more than two speakers. Some research on the internet showed the power drops to less than 50w for surround sound on some 100+ WPC rated receivers.

 

[JohnT]

BTW, don't get caught up on the "volume dial position", it's pretty much arbitrary as long as you can indeed drive the speakers to satisfying levels for your tastes and habits.

Same deal for the "speaker power handling". In general, that is a pretty much useless spec.

I'm only concerned because I read having an under-powered receiver (going purely based on the numbers) can damage your speakers. Since my center speaker is 150w RMS, if my receiver is indeed putting out less than 100w, then they are pretty unmatched in my opinion.

 

[markw]

You can buy tires rated to 150 mph but you don't need to drive that fast to get the best out of them. You don't send that much power to the surrounds, period.

But, if you feel you want a more powerful receiver then no amount of talking will dissuade you of that.

If you want to rattle the walls, That's the sub's job, not your speakers. You need a bigger sub. ...or two ....or four.

FTI, your center speaker should be from the same manufacturer and line as your right and left speakers.

 

[slipperybidness]

I'm only concerned because I read having an under-powered receiver (going purely based on the numbers) can damage your speakers. Since my center speaker is 150w RMS, if my receiver is indeed putting out less than 100w, then they are pretty unmatched in my opinion.

And, your opinion would be in error. That's why you are here, to learn.

Like I said in the previous post--Don't get caught up on this. It's pretty much a useless spec. All it tells you is how much power the speakers can handle CONTINUOUSLY before you fry the voice coils.

You missed my point on the AVR and the Watts. The point is that doubling the power = 3dB SPL increase (i.e. not much SPL increase).

Klipsch is known to produce efficient speakers. So, I HIGHLY doubt that the Yammy is underpowered and causing your problems.

Do you ever hear anything that "sounds hideous" coming out of your speakers? Clilcks, clacks, thumps, severe distortion? If the answer is "no", then you are fine with that AVR.

Start from the beginning. Describe your problem and describe what you want to improve.

Until we get clear, concise, and precise info from you about your problem, I still stick with my 2 comments.

1) Buy a REAL subwoofer (or better yet a pair of subs) like one of these
Rythmik
SVS
HSU
PSA

2) Check the AVR settings, be sure no funny processing modes are enabled. Try the room correction/calibration.

You either need to optimize your settings on the AVR, optimize speaker placement, or buy a big boy sub.

I am fairly certain that the Yammy power rating is not your problem here. You seem hung up on that and seems that you came here to get us to validate your suspicion. But, I say "look elsewhere for the problem".

 

[JohnT]

You can buy tires rated to 150 mph but you don't need to drive that fast to get the best out of them. You don't send that much power to the surrounds, period.

But, if you feel you want a more powerful receiver then no amount of talking will dissuade you of that.

If you want to rattle the walls, That's the sub's job, not your speakers. You need a bigger sub. ...or two ....or four.

FTI, your center speaker should be from the same manufacturer and line as your right and left speakers.

And, your opinion would be in error. That's why you are here, to learn.

Like I said in the previous post--Don't get caught up on this. It's pretty much a useless spec. All it tells you is how much power the speakers can handle CONTINUOUSLY before you fry the voice coils.

You missed my point on the AVR and the Watts. The point is that doubling the power = 3dB SPL increase (i.e. not much SPL increase).

Klipsch is known to produce efficient speakers. So, I HIGHLY doubt that the Yammy is underpowered and causing your problems.

Do you ever hear anything that "sounds hideous" coming out of your speakers? Clilcks, clacks, thumps, severe distortion? If the answer is "no", then you are fine with that AVR.

Start from the beginning. Describe your problem and describe what you want to improve.

Until we get clear, concise, and precise info from you about your problem, I still stick with my 2 comments.

1) Buy a REAL subwoofer (or better yet a pair of subs) like one of these
Rythmik
SVS
HSU
PSA

2) Check the AVR settings, be sure no funny processing modes are enabled. Try the room correction/calibration.

You either need to optimize your settings on the AVR, optimize speaker placement, or buy a big boy sub.

I am fairly certain that the Yammy power rating is not your problem here. You seem hung up on that and seems that you came here to get us to validate your suspicion. But, I say "look elsewhere for the problem".

I'm definitely not looking to spend any more money. I know this thread appears suspicious... some sort of hidden agenda to buy something more expensive, but I'm actually looking for the input you guys are providing. Like I said, I've heard Gene say you need to buy speakers and a receiver that are well matched in his Youtube videos. When I was comparing the numbers, my system seemed rather unmatched. My speakers are rated between 75w to 150w RMS, and my receiver outputs 2/3 of that at peak through a single channel... and I'm driving five. Plus I spent enough on my system that I would rather spend more instead of having anything blow out or fry. I mean... I spent close to $2,000 on my speakers and about $250 on my receiver. With speakers ranging from $5 walmart brand to $50,000 high end craziness, I wanted to make sure my receiver is a good match to the speakers I purchased. I suspect that listening to music/movies between -50 dB and -30 dB doesn't output anywhere near peak anyway.

The sound is absolutely massive! It's the first system I've owned where I can handle watching an entire movie without adjusting the volume. Most of the time, the highs are way too high, and the lows are nonexistent. I'm pretty dang happy with the sound!

I think you guys definitely helped squash my insecurities about my receiver. I will definitely try the room correction, but the speakers are all about the same distance and level away from me. I will see what happens.

 

[JohnT]

I'm not sure I understand what crossover frequencies the automated room correction is going to configure for me though. I've only seen one crossover frequency for the subwoofer in the menus that I've set to 100 Hz for a little extra boom boom during music. Does it adjust other things internally that I can't change once it's set?

 

[markw]

I've offered my opinion, and so has slippery. You can do with it what you wish. It's all up to you now. Do what you think is best.

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

Auto correction does a bit more that just setting your crossover setting, some of these changes are not going to be visible at all (unless you own hi-end processor) but it doesn't matter - what matter it changes the sound to fix some issues with speakers and/or room.

Like slippery already said - your Klipsch R-12SW thou "cheap", it's cheap for a reason - it's crappy
you need to return it and get a real sub from brands mentioned above.

Also don't go chase watts - you'll just end up wasting money, especially with your Klipsch speakers.

Think of why Lotus Elise has only 1.8L engine with 4 cylinders - same size as about Toyota Corolla, but then lets agree Elise is a "bit" faster. Why is what? It's lighter and using needs less horsepowers to move fast. Same applies to your speakers. They don't need v8 hemi

 

[JohnT]

I've offered my opinion, and so has slippery. You can do with it what you wish. It's all up to you now. Do what you think is best.

I appreciate all your input. I'm definitely sticking to my RX-V477 and I'm just not going to worry about it. Thank you again!

 

[JohnT]

Auto correction does a bit more that just setting your crossover setting, some of these changes are not going to be visible at all (unless you own hi-end processor) but it doesn't matter - what matter it changes the sound to fix some issues with speakers and/or room.

Like slippery already said - your Klipsch R-12SW thou "cheap", it's cheap for a reason - it's crappy
you need to return it and get a real sub from brands mentioned above.

Also don't go chase watts - you'll just end up wasting money, especially with your Klipsch speakers.

Think of why Lotus Elise has only 1.8L engine with 4 cylinders - same size as about Toyota Corolla, but then lets agree Elise is a "bit" faster. Why is what? It's lighter and using needs less horsepowers to move fast. Same applies to your speakers. They don't need v8 hemi

Dang is the sub that bad? It sounds sort of good to my ears... Maybe I just don't know any better. I'll look into the brands mentioned. Thanks for the advice.

 

[KEW]

If you go here:
http://www.svsound.com/merlin

You will see your speakers should be crossed over at 60 Hz.

See what that does before you change anything. Directing a little more bass content to the mains may improve the area you are not happy with.
But your sub is the weakest component.

 

[KEW]

YPAO

 

[JohnT]

If you go here:
http://www.svsound.com/merlin

You will see your speakers should be crossed over at 60 Hz.

See what that does before you change anything. Directing a little more bass content to the mains may improve the area you are not happy with.
But your sub is the weakest component.

Great Link! Thank you for sharing.

YPAO

I'm going to watch this video right now. Does this calibration modify any settings that I won't be able to override in case I need to? Like something not available to me in the menus?

 

[JohnT]

I looked into the subwoofers @slipperybidness recommended. I'm not quite sure I understand why the sub I purchased is the weak link. What measure are you guys using to make this assessment? Should I post this as a new thread under the subwoofer section or something?

 

[ATLAudio]

John,

Congrats on your new system. Let me break down a few things to help you out.

The RMS wattage rating on the speakers is basically meaningless; ignore it. Consider this the first rule of high end audio. All that means is that you can feed the RF-62s 125 watts all day long and not burn out the voice coils, but you almost never feed the speakers that much power; more on that in a minute. Pay more attention to the speaker’s efficiency rating, and your wattage rating from your AVR.

Speaker Efficiency

We have the same floor standing speakers, so I’ll reference those speakers throughout my post. You can make these speakers sing with an alarm clock; and that’s not an exaggeration. With ONE WATT of music they can play over 90dB at one meter. 90 dB is loud. Now, you need more wattage to achieve the same at greater distance, but not much more, and I won’t bore you with the calculus involved. In fact most of the time you are jamming to music at a spirited volume you’re not using more than 20-50 watts, with very brief spikes requiring a little more power which you Yamaha will handle easily. The trouble you can run into is if your volume desired requires more than the wattage your AVR can provide sending a clipped signal which will blow the compression drivers of the speaker’s horn section. Don’t worry about this, since your speakers are very sensitive; they’d probably be uncomfortably loud before your amp ran out of juice.

AVR Wattage

Your Yamaha amp is rated at 80 watts RMS per channel STEREO. That means that any two channels can provide 80 watts comfortably- they can provide spikes of watts higher. This is suitable for your speakers. When in surround you sometimes have more than two channels working, but sometimes just one, so the RMS for all channels is usually 60%, so about 50 watts all channels driven. This is still fine for most material at high volume, especially with your speakers.

Subwoofer

You bought a bargain subwoofer, and the capability of a subwoofer around the $600 range will absolutely blow even two of those cheaper subs out of the water. I’d consider taking it back and doing some shopping elsewhere.

AVR

If you aren’t happy with that Yamaha, I’d consider a similar priced Denon due to Audyssey room correction which is superior to YAPO in all respects. Audyssey EQs the sub for better blending, YAPO doesn’t. All other aspects will be comparable.

 

[ATLAudio]

More on subwoofers:

Go to Data-Bass.com

There you can look up several subwoofers and evaluate the CEA 210 measurements (a measurement of a sub max output at a given frequency.) There is one Klipsch sub available (Klipsch SW-311), but it’s not yours; however, it’s superior to yours in overall output. However, it doesn’t compare well to many of the other subwoofers available.

Click on Systems, then find that Klipsch SW-311, and click on measurements, then go down to the first graph where you can then go to the dropdown and compare to other subs. For comparison purposes find the Power Sound Audio XV15 which is currently available for $700. It provides 20 extra dB at 20 hz which is night and day. Your sub likely has no acceptable output at 20hz using CEA2010 measurements. This won't change with an additional sub.

 

[PENG]

All that means is that you can feed the RF-62s 125 watts all day long and not burn out the voice coils, but you almost never feed the speakers that much power; more on that in a minute.

You may be right, but Klipsch's specs say: " POWER HANDLING: 125W RMS / 500W Peak "
The term RMS power is technically wrong, it should be average power, but it has been stated like that so frequently so it has sort of become an acceptable mistake/misnomer..

Since Klipsch did not specify 125W for what duration, we have no idea what they meant by 125W RMS. For amplifiers, manufacturers often use the term "continuous" to mean for X minutes and what X is, would depend on the standards they referred to. So even in those cases where they do say "continuous", we still can't read into it too much. For speakers, it is worse as they tend to be more vague about this more often than not.

Pay more attention to the speaker’s efficiency rating, and your wattage rating from your AVR.

They rarely provide the efficiency specs, but the sensitivity specs are useful to a point. One has to read this spec carefully too as they could be stated as X dB/W at 1M or X dB/2.83V/ at M, or sometimes simply X dB at 1M and that would be worse obviously.

AVR

If you aren’t happy with that Yamaha, I’d consider a similar priced Denon due to Audyssey room correction which is superior to YAPO in all respects. Audyssey EQs the sub for better blending, YAPO doesn’t. All other aspects will be comparable.

I would agree in general. Room correction systems typically improve bass response from the listening positions around the locations of the mike placed during the calibration process but not necessarily for other positions. Also, one may not prefer the improved response. In fact, some people may not even prefer more accurate (relative to the "live" recording) sound. For example, it is known that some people prefer certain tube sound that has certain inherent harmonics, while others don't.