Time To Upgrade

[Corso III]

I get home from a few days away and the clocks are blinking and the B&K 305 receiver is humming. So instead of shopping for a new TV like I was thinking, I'm now shopping for a new pre-amp and amp instead. The truth is all my gear is getting a bit archaic.

The present system is B&W CDM 7NT speakers, Sony ES DVD player, ML Grotto sub, ML center and in ceiling rears, 65" Mitsubishi Black Diamond TV and the B&K. The humming is not coming through the speakers and it's probably something that can be repaired, but it gives me a good excuse to upgrade.

I'm reading everything I can on separates but it's always confusing for me trying to sort things out. Going from store to store, moving from one room to another and one combination of components to another. I'm want to keep the cost of the amp somewhere in the 2-3k range and the pre-amp 2-2.5k. I'm looking for something I can upgrade the other components around in the near future.

I'm looking for a little guidance to hopefully cut my search down a bit.

Thanks in advance.

 

[fuzz092888]

So you're looking for a 5 channel power amp? Any idea on how much power you're looking for per channel?

 

[Corso III]

Yes, looking for a 5 channel amp. As far as power, the B&K is 150 watts so I would say that would be the minimum. Probably 200-250 would be better. Chances are I would stay in the B&W line and they seem to like power.

 

[fuzz092888]

You could do a variety of different amps, theres

Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 405x5 Perfect for diffi... | Multi ch | AudiogoN

ATI AT3005 Five Channel x 300 Watt Amplifier - B-Stock (120 V) - Amplifiers

XPA-5 | 200W x 5 | Emotiva Audio | High-end audio components for audiophiles and videophiles, spanning 2-channel music systems, as well as 5.1 and 7.1 home theaters. Products include multichannel amplifiers, stereo amplifiers, and monoblock amplifier

The emotiva is obviously the weakest of the three, but only in very discerning speakers. Its a bit more susceptible to hum and buzz in the power lines among a few other disadvantages.

One thing to keep in mind if you are going for any of the above, is that in order to produce such massive power they really need a dedicated 20 amp line in order to get even close to their spec'd wpc. Big beefy power amps need a lot of power running into them, so any quality amp that is delivering 200+ wpc at 5 channels or more will need a 20 amp or better line to deliver that power. Some amps won't even run unless plugged into a 20 amp outlet, IE the ATI above. There are amps out there that will rate at 200 wpc and plug into a 15 amp line, but don't be fooled. Even if they deliver the 200 wpc you won't get the headroom you will from something of better quality, you can't output what you're not getting in.

This reasoning does not include class D amps, btw.

If you are willing to invest in a 20 amp line, my personal choice would be to get an AB cinema series amp. I would put it up against any amp out there of similar specs and even some of better. the only problem is that the AB amps are handmade and therefore require about a 4-8 week lead time. If you're interested I can give you more information, just PM me.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think the AT3005 for $3K (already mentioned), AT2005 for $2.3K, or AT1805 for $1.1K are nice choices.

You get 7 yr parts and labor warranty with all 3 from this authorized dealer.

Amplifiers

The AT2005 & AT3005 are fully balanced, the AT1805 is not. But all three are great amps & are all made in the USA (California).

Another feature I like about AT2005/3005 (not sure on AT1805) is their "fuse-less" auto reset protection circuit. So no need to replace the fuses like a lot of amps.

As already mentioned, the AT3005 will need a 20A outlet (on wall and on surge protector), but the 2005/1805 will not. I had to get 20A circuit in my room and bought new surge protector with 20A outlets for my AT3005, which is also very heavy - as in probably 110lbs.

ATI makes amps for 1/2 dozen other companies, although each company will have some differences, which I doubt are audible differences.

The AT1805 is probably the best bargain @ 50% retail. I believe that is because the condition of the AT1805 is 9/10, while the condition of the AT2005 & AT3005 are 10/10, although you will probably not notice any differences.

For pre-pro, I would call Electronics Expo (Denon authorized) and ask them to sell you a brand new Denon AVR-4311 for $1330 + $30 s/h. They have been selling to a few guys with "inside" knowledge of this price.

 

[fuzz092888]

I should have known you'd be here pawning ATI amps

If you saw pics of the new AB cinema series I know you'd want one or three. They have more power (if you want it) than the ATIs, can be had brand new for the price of B stock ATI (for a limited time) and are the OEM for some major brands as well. Plus I've emailed Bob more than a few times (he owns the company and builds the amps) extremely nice guy and super helpful. Kinda makes me want to say the DM of amps.

Even you ADTG would probably be impressed with who this guy is the OEM for

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Even you ADTG would probably be impressed with who this guy is the OEM for

Alright, spill the beans. I'm listening.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just now found out someone here (Crypto) just bought the Denon 4311 from Electronics Expo for $1299 Shipped!

 

[cpp]

ATI

 

[Corso III]

Wow, thanks for the help!

A couple of questions on the Denon 4311;
Why would you use a receiver instead of a dedicated pre-amp.
I don't know what all the latest bells and whistles are but does this unit have them?

Thanks again.

 

[fuzz092888]

More often than not a pre-amp gets you separation between the electronics and the power supply, plus balanced outputs.

Neither of these are absolutely necessary and are a waste of money IMO. A good AVR gives you all the same features, plus pre-outs to connect an external amp for usually less money.

 

[Corso III]

I was able to check out the Denon receiver yesterday. It looked like a quality unit, so I ordered one this morning. This will give me some time to decide on the amp. and if I want to pull in a 20 amp line or not.

I also picked up an Oppo BDP 95, replacing my Sony ES. This player is amazing. It's hard to believe the difference.

 

[fuzz092888]

Congrats on the purchase. Like ADTG said, there are a few options out there if you don't want to run a 20 amp line. That being said, having one is always a good idea if you can swing it.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I was able to check out the Denon receiver yesterday. It looked like a quality unit, so I ordered one this morning. This will give me some time to decide on the amp. and if I want to pull in a 20 amp line or not.

I also picked up an Oppo BDP 95, replacing my Sony ES. This player is amazing. It's hard to believe the difference.

I think AVR will sound as great as any pre-pro.

Why?

Because they measure just as well as many pre-pro.

Some AVR measure better than some pre-pro, and some pre-pro measure better, but they will cost a lot more. In the end, the differences in the measurements are inaudible.

SNR of -105dB vs -120dB. Inaudible.

Crosstalk of -80dB vs -100dB. Inaudible.

 

[cpp]

I've got the Denon 4311 working with a ATI 1803. It's a great combination.

 

[Corso III]

How's This For Timing?

I drive out to L.A. and pick up an ATI 2005. I get home from work, unpack the amp, move the other components around so I have a spot for it and sit down to sift through the Owner's Guide. Then it happens, the power goes out to the house. Naturally I check the all the audio equipment to see what I did. I don't see anything wrong. So I go outside to check the panel and nothings tripped. Then I hear the neighbor's kid yell "Daddy, every things off".

I have a few hours of daylight left and I sure the power will be restored by then. So I make the best of it and decide to check the ratings of the speakers. I move the center channel and the pivot mount loosens up and the speaker is now pointing at the floor. No problem, I grab an Allen head from the garage, start to tighten the bolt and SNAP. I pull the pivot bolt out and it is immediately clear I can search the rest of my life and never find one of these jewels again.

Now it's getting dark but I'm sure the power will be back on shortly. So I feed the dogs, grab some flashlights (just in case) and open the fridge just wide enough to grab a beer.

It's now morning and the power just came back on after 14 hours. I found a bolt in the garage that should suffice as a pivot. Next I'll be back at point "A" and connect the new amp. Sometimes even the easiest, most straight forward jobs can become a PITA!!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I drive out to L.A. and pick up an ATI 2005. I get home from work, unpack the amp, move the other components around so I have a spot for it and sit down to sift through the Owner's Guide. Then it happens, the power goes out to the house. Naturally I check the all the audio equipment to see what I did. I don't see anything wrong. So I go outside to check the panel and nothings tripped. Then I hear the neighbor's kid yell "Daddy, every things off".

I have a few hours of daylight left and I sure the power will be restored by then. So I make the best of it and decide to check the ratings of the speakers. I move the center channel and the pivot mount loosens up and the speaker is now pointing at the floor. No problem, I grab an Allen head from the garage, start to tighten the bolt and SNAP. I pull the pivot bolt out and it is immediately clear I can search the rest of my life and never find one of these jewels again.

Now it's getting dark but I'm sure the power will be back on shortly. So I feed the dogs, grab some flashlights (just in case) and open the fridge just wide enough to grab a beer.

It's now morning and the power just came back on after 14 hours. I found a bolt in the garage that should suffice as a pivot. Next I'll be back at point "A" and connect the new amp. Sometimes even the easiest, most straight forward jobs can become a PITA!!!

Well, at least you got an awesome ATI fully pure balanced amp.

Does it have the big bad heavy duty metal handles in front? I love those handles. My AT2004, 3002, 3005 all have those mean handles.

 

[Corso III]

Yep, big black handles. It reminds me of some of the gear I had as a kid in the 80's. They actually came in handy for moving the amp around when I installed it.

It's installed and I've had a chance to play part of Avatar and couple of CD's in two channel. The amp setion on my old B&K was much better than the new Denon but the ATI is head and shoulders better than the B&K. The amp is quiet, clear and it added the punch I was looking for. It really drives the BW's.

When I replaced the Sony Es and the B&K with the Oppo and Denon, the sound/video quality was superior but the build quality was a bit disappointing. The build quality of the amp is exellent. It's built like the proverbial tank.

I'm really enjoying the new sound, now it's time to start looking at TV's. Thanks for all the great advice!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I think ATI amps can drive any speakers. There is a great reason they make amps for other brands.

I wonder how their power output compare to the pro amps that are 2000 - 4000 watts per channel. How can all these little amps output so much power?