The Dolby Atmos Home Theater Paradox

[Klipschhead302]

Ag

According to the manual it should use the wides. Might wanna comb through it and figure out why it isnt. Atmos definitely does support both front and rear wides though.

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Agreed, however when I entered the menu and selected Atmos the speaker config gave me only options of front wide OR front height but when I turned this option off I got the option of 9.2.2, 11.2 and other various configurations. You know, I can actually go into the menu from here, no, wait, the amplifier is not triggered by the SR7009 yet, the MA-6100's are showing up this afternoon so even though I can remote into the AVR the speakers won't be available for the front heights.

I'll be setting those amplifiers up tonight, I'll go through the options and the manual and post back.

 

[yepimonfire]

Ag


Agreed, however when I entered the menu and selected Atmos the speaker config gave me only options of front wide OR front height but when I turned this option off I got the option of 9.2.2, 11.2 and other various configurations. You know, I can actually go into the menu from here, no, wait, the amplifier is not triggered by the SR7009 yet, the MA-6100's are showing up this afternoon so even though I can remote into the AVR the speakers won't be available for the front heights.

I'll be setting those amplifiers up tonight, I'll go through the options and the manual and post back.

The sr 7009 isn't 11.2, that's why. It's unlikely dts neo x is using both heights and wides. The receiver does process 11 channels, so once you get the amp you should be able to get 11.1.

What are you using for heights and what placement? While most receivers have an option for front heights, directly over head is much better. Where are the wides located? They should be between the surrounds and fronts, unlike dsx wides which are on the same plane as the fronts.

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[Klipschhead302]

The sr 7009 isn't 11.2, that's why. It's unlikely dts neo x is using both heights and wides. The receiver does process 11 channels, so once you get the amp you should be able to get 11.1.

What are you using for heights and what placement? While most receivers have an option for front heights, directly over head is much better. Where are the wides located? They should be between the surrounds and fronts, unlike dsx wides which are on the same plane as the fronts.

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As stated, I have an amplifier running the front heights and the AVR powers the front wides. Also, look at my signature, the config is shown there.

In my room directly overhead in front is not an option so they are installed about ceiling height aimed at the MLP. This Saturday I'll be installing rear heights the same way, I'll post pictures when it's completed.

 

[yepimonfire]

I still think you're setting up something wrong. Maybe give marantz a call.

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[Klipschhead302]

I still think you're setting up something wrong. Maybe give marantz a call.

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I can only use the settings provided on screen, it's not like I can unlock easter egg settings, they're either there or not. Sadly the AVR is no longer under warranty. I tried calling them, the hold time was too long. I'm going through the user guide, they even have one for Atmos, and seeing how it goes tomorrow.

 

[BlwnAway]

From what I'm seeing, the 7009 doesn't support Wides and FH with Atmos, only 7.2.2 & 7.2.4.
And if it does support 9.2.2, the x.x.2 would have to be assigned as TM, not FH.
(I think the later models were different)
Plus, remember... Atmos itself only uses Wides for objects, it doesn't matrix them in to fill the front sound field liked your used to with the old PLIIz formats, and the Dolby upmixer doesn't use Wides at all. This is one of the reasons wides were dropped in 2017, no more PLIIz or NEO-X.

 

[yepimonfire]

From what I'm seeing, the 7009 doesn't support Wides and FH with Atmos, only 7.2.2 & 7.2.4.
And if it does support 9.2.2, the x.x.2 would have to be assigned as TM, not FH.
(I think the later models were different)
Plus, remember... Atmos itself only uses Wides for objects, it doesn't matrix them in to fill the front sound field liked your used to with the old PLIIz formats, and the Dolby upmixer doesn't use Wides at all. This is one of the reasons wides were dropped in 2017, no more PLIIz or NEO-X.

I guess if wides are important then neo x, neural x, or dts x is the way to go. Dts x is a bit different from atmos in that regard. Whatever speaker configuration you set up it just figures out how to distribute the sound, for example, I have middle heights, if something passes through the front to the surrounds it uses the height to bridge the gap, even if the sound isn't overhead. Their upmixers function differently too. Dolby surround upmixer looks for phase and timing differences between the channels, neural x does something different, but I haven't quite figured it out yet. I'll say it's much less accurate than DSU. Dts x seems to be more about filling the sound field, where as atmos is more about discrete objects.

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[Klipschhead302]

Well, after an entire day of mounting the front wides, putting the rear side surrounds on stands and running through Audyssey more times than I can count after more configurations I can count I have the surround sound doing Atmos with wides. People claim this is detailed in the user guide, not entirely true. You have no wides, easy peasy but not in Atmos mode.

If you have a Marantz SR7009 or SR7010 (7010 is the last one with wides) DO NOT put it in Atmos mode if you have 11.2 channels to futz with. In Amp Assign: put it in 11.1 mode, 2 height speakers, height layout = top front and pre-out = top front (you can see the Marantz MA-6100's on top of the RF-82's). You also have to go into Speakers/Speaker Config: and turn on the front wides, for some reason when I select 11.1 channel mode and top front it turns the wides off, you need to turn them back on.

Run Audyssey, damn right sub is selected beyond parameters, 26ft, which has never happened before and the top left speaker Audyssey says to put out of phase, I did so and Audyssey ran without an issue.

I have Atmos working properly, with wides and the test Atmos files work perfectly and the Marantz display says Atmos with top and wide speakers running and sounds incredible. The amount of floor flex is amazing! Both listening positions sound about the same, that's what I was going for since we rarely have people over to watch movies, so two positions work out great.

Music however now sounds like crap, the entire room is a big null, which has never happened before so tomorrow I'm going to futz around since my ears are done with listening all over the room, drove me nuts.

Don't ask me to move the subs (not trying to be rude, the wife can only take so much) , they have sounded fantastic where they are and have been moved all over (sub crawl was fun), both front and rear walls have windows, this is not an optimal room but at least movies sound awesome. I must be missing a setting, MDAX was used in all settings, Audyssey MultiEQ is on Reference. Yet there is very little bass in music.

Funny thing is, last week music sounded fantastic.... anyway I'm going to be out most of tomorrow and will hopefully have some time to go at the music part with fresh ears.

Forgive the wiring, I have a lot more work to do for that.

Rear of the room, I wish I could pull the seats out more but the entrance to the room isn't real wide.

Lots of copper!

 

[Klipschhead302]

I ran Aydessey again this morning and it got the subwoofer distances much better. I do have to say with MultiEQ32 "Adjusts Audyssey parameters" which can be modified after Audyssey has been run is hard to determine if I like it on reference or not.

On reference there seems to be more nuance to the surround effects, just slightly clearer. However bass response seems to be "spread out", has a negative feeling to it like the phase is changed. With this additional parameter turned off there is a definite improvement of perceived bass response in everything. With it on the bass is locked at the 1, 2 & 3 listening position's. Move forward and it's one big null.

I have been going back and forth listening to Atmos demo recordings and liking MultiEQ off more than having it on. I don't know if this setting was on when music was sounding so good last weekend or not, now I'm writing things down and taking notes so I don't forget.

Atmos sounds incredible either way, man this was easier when running 5.2. I have to head out for a few hours and will have the wife take a listen, this will be more work than doing the Audyssey configuration since she hates helping but I need fresh ears.

 

[yepimonfire]

That's why I do manual calibration. I've never had good results with any automatic room correction. Doesn't matter if it's audyssey multi eq 32xt, or sonys dcac. It's always screws up the eq and delays for the sub.

Everyone always says not to touch the sub distance because it's compensating for the delay, but if one is using an LFE input there shouldn't be a delay, there's no delay from the AVR's xover because all of the processing is done before being sent to the power amps and is synced up in the avr, besides, all of that stuff is disabled during calibration anyways.

It's never gotten distance right, levels right, or xover frequencies right. Audyssey tried to set my center channel xover to 50hz. The -3dB point of three center channel as measured by me is 80hz, with 50hz being nearly 18dB down. At a seating distance of 9 ft it set my sub to 18ft. I ran a 0-200hz sweep with REW with the distance set as audyssey set it and the phase at and below the xover frequency was reversed 170 degrees, measuring via a tape and setting it to the correct distance fixed that.

On the eq front, audyssey boosted and cut random frequencies that made not a damn bit of sense. My sub at the MLP with no room correction measures +-5dB, so it doesn't even need correcting, yet audyssey thought I needed a 6dB gain at 70hz, which obviously sounded like crap.

I personally think there is no point in trying to eq anything past 200hz, the frequency response across high frequencies just varies so much depending on the location due to room reflections. Simply manually equalizing out room mode humps is plenty. High frequency problems should be corrected via room treatment. My entire system measures +-5dB from 23hz-22khz at the MLP, and every speaker plays at exactly 75dB at -30dBfs. Something audyssey failed miserably at.

That negative sound you're hearing is because the sub is probably out of phase. Try manually adjusting the distance.

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[Klipschhead302]

yepimonfire,

Here is something strange, all day Saturday Audyssey set my mains and center plus the RP-160M's wides as large with a crossover of 40hz. My left sub is at 11ft, Audyssey picked 17.8ft and for the right it selected 26ft. I had the gains cranked way down and on every run it said my gains were too high, even when I had it nearly all the way down on them. When Audyssey was done the subs were at -12 in the AVR with those distance settings. You couldn't even hear them so I had to set the AVR volume at 0 and I used the test tones to bring them back in line and I had to turn up the gains on both to 10:30 and ended up with them matched together at 75db and separated they were about 71 to 72db.

Sunday morning I started fresh, set the gains on the subs at 9:45 which is not a high setting by any means and ran the entire thing over again. This time it picked 17ft for the left sub and 18ft for the right, it still said the gains were too high on the subs which I left alone and it said it still matched them. I knew I could adjust later and the levels when all was said and done equaled about 68db with the AVR volume at 0. It also picked the mains, center and wides as small but still used 40HZ so this was a better run than I previously have gotten.

This is waaaaaaay too quiet to I adjusted everything to 75db.

The MultiEQ32 "Adjusts Audyssey parameters" was set to reference and in this mode it sounds fine at the MLP's but as I said it has a negative effect, like the phase is off but the surrounds seem to sparkle a bit more, slightly more.

I turned MultiEQ32 off in every input source which definitely gave the system more punch, I still found it turning back on to reference when we switched DVD's which I find irritating. I'm going to give Mark Seaton a call to discuss the subwoofer configurations and if adding a third big sub in a 15x14 room might be considered insane. I can't imagine the floor vibrating any harder but if ya got it why not use it right?

Getting back to the topic, when we got home I put "Passengers" in and Atmos was now an option in the AVR however wides were not. So when I used the Atmos demos the AVR automatically selected Atmos and the display showed wides plus you could hear them during the demos (incredible sound). However the movie, no wides and I'll be honest it sounded better in the Dolby D NEO:X C setting than in Atmos but it was nice to have the options.

yepimonfire, instead of adjusting the distance again, how about if I adjust the phase on the subs or trying both? Adjusting distance is of course easy but maybe adjusting phase at the sub would be a worthwhile test. it seems I am bucking everything people say to do and maybe my ears are just too sensitive to phase, I'm not sure but I'm willing to try more things.

 

[yepimonfire]

yepimonfire,

Here is something strange, all day Saturday Audyssey set my mains and center plus the RP-160M's wides as large with a crossover of 40hz. My left sub is at 11ft, Audyssey picked 17.8ft and for the right it selected 26ft. I had the gains cranked way down and on every run it said my gains were too high, even when I had it nearly all the way down on them. When Audyssey was done the subs were at -12 in the AVR with those distance settings. You couldn't even hear them so I had to set the AVR volume at 0 and I used the test tones to bring them back in line and I had to turn up the gains on both to 10:30 and ended up with them matched together at 75db and separated they were about 71 to 72db.

Sunday morning I started fresh, set the gains on the subs at 9:45 which is not a high setting by any means and ran the entire thing over again. This time it picked 17ft for the left sub and 18ft for the right, it still said the gains were too high on the subs which I left alone and it said it still matched them. I knew I could adjust later and the levels when all was said and done equaled about 68db with the AVR volume at 0. It also picked the mains, center and wides as small but still used 40HZ so this was a better run than I previously have gotten.

This is waaaaaaay too quiet to I adjusted everything to 75db.

The MultiEQ32 "Adjusts Audyssey parameters" was set to reference and in this mode it sounds fine at the MLP's but as I said it has a negative effect, like the phase is off but the surrounds seem to sparkle a bit more, slightly more.

I turned MultiEQ32 off in every input source which definitely gave the system more punch, I still found it turning back on to reference when we switched DVD's which I find irritating. I'm going to give Mark Seaton a call to discuss the subwoofer configurations and if adding a third big sub in a 15x14 room might be considered insane. I can't imagine the floor vibrating any harder but if ya got it why not use it right?

Getting back to the topic, when we got home I put "Passengers" in and Atmos was now an option in the AVR however wides were not. So when I used the Atmos demos the AVR automatically selected Atmos and the display showed wides plus you could hear them during the demos (incredible sound). However the movie, no wides and I'll be honest it sounded better in the Dolby D NEO:X C setting than in Atmos but it was nice to have the options.

yepimonfire, instead of adjusting the distance again, how about if I adjust the phase on the subs or trying both? Adjusting distance is of course easy but maybe adjusting phase at the sub would be a worthwhile test. it seems I am bucking everything people say to do and maybe my ears are just too sensitive to phase, I'm not sure but I'm willing to try more things.

Distance is phase. I would disable multi eq entirely and try doing a manual setup. Do you have a laptop with a built in mic? If so, download rew, hook it up via hdmi and sit it in the listening position and run a 0-200hz sweep. You'll likely notice a hump in the room mode, eq that out manually. Alternatively you could calibrate the sub to 75dB and just output sine waves at each 1/3 octave with the sub xover set to 200hz. Watch the spl meter for large variations at each 1/3 octave frequency and eq out the peaks from standing waves. I have a +- 5dB in room response from 23hz -22khz by doing this. Don't bother trying to correct frequencies above 200hz using an spl meter or laptop mic, they're not accurate enough above the bass region.

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[Klipschhead302]

Distance is phase. I would disable multi eq entirely and try doing a manual setup. Do you have a laptop with a built in mic? If so, download rew, hook it up via hdmi and sit it in the listening position and run a 0-200hz sweep. You'll likely notice a hump in the room mode, eq that out manually. Alternatively you could calibrate the sub to 75dB and just output sine waves at each 1/3 octave with the sub xover set to 200hz. Watch the spl meter for large variations at each 1/3 octave frequency and eq out the peaks from standing waves. I have a +- 5dB in room response from 23hz -22khz by doing this. Don't bother trying to correct frequencies above 200hz using an spl meter or laptop mic, they're not accurate enough above the bass region.

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This will be very noob, and where do I make these magical adjustments? I understand taking measurements and adjusting to 75db but where do I eq something out manually?? Using the dial on the sub? If I knew this I would have been all over it.

 

[yepimonfire]

This will be very noob, and where do I make these magical adjustments? I understand taking measurements and adjusting to 75db but where do I eq something out manually?? Using the dial on the sub? If I knew this I would have been all over it.

Should be an eq in the settings, let me check the manual.

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[yepimonfire]

Alright, it's under "audio" and "graphic EQ"

 

[Klipschhead302]

Alright, it's under "audio" and "graphic EQ"

Ahhhh ok, I have seen that, well sir, I will give it a go and order a mic and download REW and see how much damage I can do. I'll start a different thread since I have derailed this one.

You can bet there will be plenty of questions, many of them, will be noobish.

 

[yepimonfire]

Ahhhh ok, I have seen that, well sir, I will give it a go and order a mic and download REW and see how much damage I can do. I'll start a different thread since I have derailed this one.

You can bet there will be plenty of questions, many of them, will be noobish.

Just use a laptop for the sub EQ. Alternatively you could also use the SPL meter plugged into the mic input. Just set it to C weighting. 99% of internal laptop mics will give a good picture of the low end response. I've tested this using a calibrated mic and about 4 different laptops, worked great everytime.

If you really wanna do it justice, then go ahead and grab something like a umik and a minidsp to EQ the sub. If you really want to EQ the higher frequencies go for it, but personally I find this to be a waste of time as previously mentioned. Either way, in the meantime, just do a manual setup settings the levels and distance manually, I am interested to hear if this resolves your issues.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Below about 100hz I wouldn't trust a laptop mic, or it's orientation. Klipschead, seems to me you investing in your gear is a priority, and accuracy is what you're after. Buy a mic, it's 50 bucks.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-emm-6-electret-measurement-microphone--390-801
Btw, room looks great.

 

[Klipschhead302]

Just use a laptop for the sub EQ. Alternatively you could also use the SPL meter plugged into the mic input. Just set it to C weighting. 99% of internal laptop mics will give a good picture of the low end response. I've tested this using a calibrated mic and about 4 different laptops, worked great everytime.

If you really wanna do it justice, then go ahead and grab something like a umik and a minidsp to EQ the sub. If you really want to EQ the higher frequencies go for it, but personally I find this to be a waste of time as previously mentioned. Either way, in the meantime, just do a manual setup settings the levels and distance manually, I am interested to hear if this resolves your issues.

I'll try it with the laptop but ordering a good mic as well, my Ratshack DB meter has one but not relying on that either. Might as well invest in one so I have it.

 

[Klipschhead302]

Below about 100hz I wouldn't trust a laptop mic, or it's orientation. Klipschead, seems to me you investing in your gear is a priority, and accuracy is what you're after. Buy a mic, it's 50 bucks.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-emm-6-electret-measurement-microphone--390-801
Btw, room looks great.

I'm ordering a mic from Mark Seaton, if it's good enough for him then it's good enough for me.