The Dolby Atmos Home Theater Paradox

How Many Speakers are You running in your Home Theater?

  • 5.1 or up to 5.4

    Votes: 108 46.8%
  • 6.1 or up to 6.4

    Votes: 6 2.6%
  • 7.1 or up to 7.4

    Votes: 70 30.3%
  • 9.1 or up to 9.4

    Votes: 20 8.7%
  • 11.1 or up to 11.4

    Votes: 15 6.5%
  • Two-Channel is where it's at!

    Votes: 12 5.2%

  • Total voters
    231
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
LOL oh yea I got to get me one of them :) Hugo and I predicted this over a year ago! At least they are only reflecting high frequencies which have a chance of providing a heightened though somewhat phasey effect.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Atmos doesn't use channels in it's encoding



Since Atmos is based on spatial representation (3d position with a volume) of the sounds instead of just being channel driven won't it help somewhat with all of that except speaker quality? Atmos requires speaker calibration which would include speaker location in angle space which none of the cal programs currently do since it requires multiple mics at the same time. This will give better spatial effects even with just 5 channels since the panning will compensate for poorly placed speakers to some extent and will cause more people to run cal in the first place. It doesn't fix everything but it is an improvement and as long as it's not huge $$$ to incorporate isn't this just a plus for the people who want it? I agree if you have to replace both your BD and your receiver it probably will flop but still it doesn't hurt the industry so why the cynicism? Why not highlight the positive?

I also keep seeing discreet channels mentioned, my understanding of Atmos is that it doesn't rely on channels at all, it treats sound in movies the same way video games treat objects. they have a location in space and the system calculates in real time knowing the position of your speakers how to recreate that sound as accurately as possible from your speakers in your space. To do this it has to know the orientation and location of all of your speakers.
You still need speakers to emit sound.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
You don't get it, it doesn't have as much to do with your speakers. The only change that would need to be made is to switch to monopole surrounds if you have dipoles/bipoles surrounds. Atmos is a new way of creating sound mixes, it is not adding a bunch more speakers.
So we don't need speakers on top of the ceiling for Atmos? If not, how would you get the overhead pans of helicopter fly overs that people rave about when discussing Atmos?
 
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RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
So we don't need speakers on top of the ceiling for Atmos? If not, how would you get the overhead pans of helicopter fly overs that people rave about when discussing Atmos?
It's all done with the miracle of marketing. :)
First we had surround without rear speakers, now we have overhead sound without height channels.

If you want real overhead sound, overhead speakres are required.
Of course, the better the movie, the less time you spend analyzing the sound position :p

- Rich
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
Staff member
So we don't need speakers on top of the ceiling for Atmos? If not, how would you get the overhead pans of helicopter fly overs that people rave about when discussing Atmos?
Atmos is scalable to a bunch of different configurations. You don't need the height speakers, but you might miss some overhead information without them. You don't need the front wides, but you might miss some information without them. In order not to miss any information from the mix, you need all the channels, all 64 of them with a properly positioned and calibrated speaker for each channel. Of course, that is absurd in a home system. It's not worth worrying about some missing some minor positional sound cue. For this reason, the best surround sound system is just a decent pair of headphones. The way I see it, Atmos is an improvement on the software side of things rather than the hardware. I do not think height channels are a revolutionary step forward in surround sound. On the other hand, I do think having a single sound mix scalable to any kind of system is a real step forward.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
The next thing will be speakers on the floor (Dolby Atmos XII)
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
I see by the vote count at the top, even AH members are still mostly 5.1~7.1...the HT in use nationwide, 5.1 is about 90% of the total.
If I could find 4 Thiel Audio PowerPoint 2.1 ceiling speakers, I might go to DTS-X. But being the PP 2.1 has been out of production for many years, it's not likely to happen.
The PP 2.1 were very good coax design, would work very well in an ATMOS, DTS-X setup.
 
goodman

goodman

Full Audioholic
We've heard chatter in the industry that the new surround format Dolby Atmos, originally designed for Cineplexes, may be working its way into new AV receivers as soon as this fall. Are you ready to jump on the 9.1 or 11.1 surround bandwagon? Or, do you think this will be another forced technology push like 3D and UltraHD have been, from an industry desperate to promote a shiny new product or feature rather than educating the consumers on how to better set up existing technologies to maximize their home theater experience? It will be interesting to see if consumers will identify a need and benefit for adding more speakers in their existing home theaters and if they will be willing to allocate both budget and space to accommodate.


Read The Dolby Atmos Paradox

Are you planning an AV Receiver upgrade to accommodate Dolby Atmos and up to 11 channels of audio? Let us know in this thread.
Not likely. It doesn't appear to be worth the bother. I ran 7.1 for several years, then returned to 5.1, and in my layout it didn't seem to matter. In a different room, with different options for speaker placement, I might conclude otherwise.
 
DD66000

DD66000

Senior Audioholic
Not likely. It doesn't appear to be worth the bother. I ran 7.1 for several years, then returned to 5.1, and in my layout it didn't seem to matter. In a different room, with different options for speaker placement, I might conclude otherwise.
I would agree. As I stated awhile ago, 90% of all HT is still 5.1, with the other 10% mostly 7.1. I don't think ATMOS is ever going to go mainstream....DTS-X, that has a better chance...
Anything DTS is better than Dolby.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
At what point and time can we officially call Dolby Atmos a "failed format" ? I'm ready to now.
 
RichB

RichB

Audioholic Field Marshall
At what point and time can we officially call Dolby Atmos a "failed format" ? I'm ready to now.
It is a "failed format" if AVR/processors no longer include decoding.
I doubt that will occur as there is still room for logos on the box and that is what it is all about.

To those who implement height channels, they may not get as many Atmos/DTS:X titles as they want, but many still enjoy up-mixers.

In short, I don't foresee Atmos/DTS:X slowly disappearing like 3D.

- Rich
 
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Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
It is a "failed format" if AVR/processors no longer include decoding.
I doubt that will occur as there is still room for logos on the box and that is what it is all about.

To those who implement height channels, they may not get as many Atmos/DTS:X titles as they want, but many still enjoy up-mixers.

In short, I don't foresee Atmos/DTS:X slowly disappearing like 3D.

- Rich
That's because it haven't even appeared, not really. It will go the way of 3D, Laser Disc, HD-VHS, QUAD, SA-CD, DVD-A among other consumer failed formats. Next to crash and burn will be ULTRA HD-Blu Ray.
 
rsharp

rsharp

Audioholic
I recently experienced a demo to compare in-ceiling with Atmos-enabled. No comparison; the in-ceiling blew away the other.

The enabled speakers did add a bit of height, but probably around 18-inches to 2 feet at most above my head? It was like all the sound was constrained as if I was in a room with say 5 to 6 foot ceilings.

Panning sound that traveled in an arc (start from rear-right, overhead, then ending at front-left) was awesome with the in-ceiling flavor; heard a very discrete sound as it traveled. But the effect just failed with Atmos-enabled. Sound panned around me to the side a bit, but it also got too diffuse and a bit "lost".

In terms of the technology, I wouldn't call Dolby Atmos a failed format. It really makes sense. What I would say is a failure is the Atmos-enabled part. I can kinda see why that market even exists since as we know, a very small niche will go the in-ceiling route. Still, it's completely uncool of companies to paint a picture that it's a viable alternative.

What I am currently exploring is if there exists a compromise in using say wall-mounted speakers at the very top of ones walls. In my particular room, such speakers would only be about 18 to 24 inches away from the ideal location (7.1.2 or 5.1.4). Assuming they could be angled down a bit, not sure how close they could come to in-ceiling in the ideal locations. This would allow me to run wire in my wall which would be a huge savings. If such a setup could get me at least 80% of what a "true" Atomos setup would provide, I'd be game.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
SA-CD and DVD-A (multi-channel music formats) makes sense, however they were never well adopted by the masses, that's is the criteria that I uses when determining whether or not a format is considered a failure or a success. Dolby Atmos will decoding capability will be included on most upcoming AVR's, even the cheap ones, however, the use of such a feature remains highly suspect. It's always a challenge when something new requires additional new hardware.
 
S

Scott M

Enthusiast
Go into a Fry's Electronics, and they are starting to push Dolby Atmos a lot more than I expected. They have pretty well setup demos for both overhead and "Atmos Enabled" speakers. It is quite true that the bounce does not have the detail and pin point accuracy of true overhead speakers, but on a low ceiling, the speaker over you can end up too close. As for the jokes about sound under you... That is really tough to pull off. For a single seating location, or just a couch, yeah it could be done, but you pretty much need a low speaker for everyone. I have seen listening experiments with full sphere of speakers. It does make for a fun science experiment. About 5 years ago, I saw a demo of Iosono sound. Think of it as Dolby Atmos on steroids. You think 64 speaker feeds seems crazy on the cinema system, the room I saw Iosono in had over 350 speakers in a ring all the way around, all separately amp'd and driven by a render farm of something like 6 Dell server PC's running the software. They had some very cool sounidng demos. The odd thing is it had no height speakers, just this wild ring, with a speaker every foot or less all the way around. It was using "wave front synthesis" to make a sound appear to come from anywhere within the room, or outside of it, in the plane of the speakers. At the time, they were trying to get a movie mixed to use it, but I do not think it ever happened. most of the demo material they played for us was just audio only, and with the room dark, you really did hear sound like it was coming out of thin air right in a spot in the room. One clip was the sounds of getting a hair cut. They ran it for each of us in the group, you had to stand at the right spot ni the room, and you heard the scissors clipping all around your head, and then the clippers cleaning up your neck, it was eerie. The sound was right there. But if you moved out of the spot, the sound was now going on next to you. They also did some clips of sounds whipping around the room and had a short clip from a movie with picture. Once the image was on screen, the sounds seemed to come from the walls again, it was not, in the room with you as much, but that was probably a mix issue. They also used the term "Object Audio" and said the number of speakers was just to cover the room without gaps.

Dolby Atmos looks so tame next to that monster, but what I found very different was that in Atmos, the image on screen seems to help locate the sound. On the Iosono demos, I closed my eyes, and the audio location seemed more solid, it is different. But I can't say what made that difference.

The pro cinema version of Dolby Atmos does allow the position of each speaker to be entered. I got a quick look at the setup software, peaked over a shoulder, but I was not allowed to get a copy. It is too bad the home version does not (YET??) have this ability to know the true speaker positions. The second demo of Cinema Atmos I was at back in 2013, I got there early, and I got to peak in as they were testing it before the demo. And they actually found 3 speakers in the back of the room were assigned wrong. As the pan went around the room, it reversed across the offending 3 speakers. A few key strokes and they had it back in the right order. They also explained how this room had a gap ni the row of 8 down the sides. And with the correct positions entered, it still panned perfectly smooth across the gap. The system is really amazing.

Bringing it into the home is very interesting, and I will be upgrading very soon. My current system has been 7.1 for 11 years now, and it does sound great, but the genie is out of the bottle and I know what I am missing.

When you hear Dolby Atmos setup right, it is amazing how well it works to put you in the middle of the action. Big loud overhead noise is cool, but to me, that was the least of it. The subtle cues of nature all around you, and hearing these tiny sound off screen, so delicate and accurate. When I play the Atmos version on my 7.1, I did go back and listen to those same parts, and all the sounds are there, but they are mixed together, and played out of 3 speakers, and the precision is just blurred. It still sounds great, and had I not heard the original intent, never would have said it was not great. And the overhead part is really a bit of a bonus, not the main event. The reflection speakers work well and better than I ever expected, but I am still looking at true overheads for the precision. But, do take a listen to the Klipsch, they almost sold me.
 
Auditor55

Auditor55

Audioholic General
Go into a Fry's Electronics, and they are starting to push Dolby Atmos a lot more than I expected. They have pretty well setup demos for both overhead and "Atmos Enabled" speakers. It is quite true that the bounce does not have the detail and pin point accuracy of true overhead speakers, but on a low ceiling, the speaker over you can end up too close. As for the jokes about sound under you... That is really tough to pull off. For a single seating location, or just a couch, yeah it could be done, but you pretty much need a low speaker for everyone. I have seen listening experiments with full sphere of speakers. It does make for a fun science experiment. About 5 years ago, I saw a demo of Iosono sound. Think of it as Dolby Atmos on steroids. You think 64 speaker feeds seems crazy on the cinema system, the room I saw Iosono in had over 350 speakers in a ring all the way around, all separately amp'd and driven by a render farm of something like 6 Dell server PC's running the software. They had some very cool sounidng demos. The odd thing is it had no height speakers, just this wild ring, with a speaker every foot or less all the way around. It was using "wave front synthesis" to make a sound appear to come from anywhere within the room, or outside of it, in the plane of the speakers. At the time, they were trying to get a movie mixed to use it, but I do not think it ever happened. most of the demo material they played for us was just audio only, and with the room dark, you really did hear sound like it was coming out of thin air right in a spot in the room. One clip was the sounds of getting a hair cut. They ran it for each of us in the group, you had to stand at the right spot ni the room, and you heard the scissors clipping all around your head, and then the clippers cleaning up your neck, it was eerie. The sound was right there. But if you moved out of the spot, the sound was now going on next to you. They also did some clips of sounds whipping around the room and had a short clip from a movie with picture. Once the image was on screen, the sounds seemed to come from the walls again, it was not, in the room with you as much, but that was probably a mix issue. They also used the term "Object Audio" and said the number of speakers was just to cover the room without gaps.

Dolby Atmos looks so tame next to that monster, but what I found very different was that in Atmos, the image on screen seems to help locate the sound. On the Iosono demos, I closed my eyes, and the audio location seemed more solid, it is different. But I can't say what made that difference.

The pro cinema version of Dolby Atmos does allow the position of each speaker to be entered. I got a quick look at the setup software, peaked over a shoulder, but I was not allowed to get a copy. It is too bad the home version does not (YET??) have this ability to know the true speaker positions. The second demo of Cinema Atmos I was at back in 2013, I got there early, and I got to peak in as they were testing it before the demo. And they actually found 3 speakers in the back of the room were assigned wrong. As the pan went around the room, it reversed across the offending 3 speakers. A few key strokes and they had it back in the right order. They also explained how this room had a gap ni the row of 8 down the sides. And with the correct positions entered, it still panned perfectly smooth across the gap. The system is really amazing.

Bringing it into the home is very interesting, and I will be upgrading very soon. My current system has been 7.1 for 11 years now, and it does sound great, but the genie is out of the bottle and I know what I am missing.

When you hear Dolby Atmos setup right, it is amazing how well it works to put you in the middle of the action. Big loud overhead noise is cool, but to me, that was the least of it. The subtle cues of nature all around you, and hearing these tiny sound off screen, so delicate and accurate. When I play the Atmos version on my 7.1, I did go back and listen to those same parts, and all the sounds are there, but they are mixed together, and played out of 3 speakers, and the precision is just blurred. It still sounds great, and had I not heard the original intent, never would have said it was not great. And the overhead part is really a bit of a bonus, not the main event. The reflection speakers work well and better than I ever expected, but I am still looking at true overheads for the precision. But, do take a listen to the Klipsch, they almost sold me.
The only problem, which I have been skeptical about Dolby Atmos, is too much sound can be overkill and a distraction from the movie. Its just like 3D, it can sometimes enhance the visual experience and sometimes it can pull you right out of it by becoming "gimmicky" and distraction.

We only have two ears and those two ears are of the side of our head. We don't have ear(s) on top of our heads. To me, its somewhat unnatural to pan sounds from above, that creates a distraction, that will cause you to look up at the ceiling and away from what's going on the screen.
 
KenM10759

KenM10759

Audioholic Samurai
While we don't have ears on top of our heads we don't have any on our butts or backs either and still manage to hear something coming up behind us.

Overhead sounds in a theater may be distracting for you, others seem to rave about it and might not be doing so if it detracted from the enjoyment of a movie they paid to see.
 

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