The Broadcast Flag Back!

[b_panther_g]

The Broadcast Flag Back! - Please help Stop it

According to this EFF article...

"You Have 48 Hours to Stop the Broadcast Flag
June 20, 2005

Rumor is afoot that Hollywood is taking another crack at the Broadcast Flag on Capitol Hill, this time by sneaking a Flag provision into an appropriations bill before the Senate.

If what we hear is true, the provision will be introduced before a subcommittee tomorrow and before the full appropriations committee on Thursday. That gives us 48 hours to stop it.

EFF's action alert, geared to people with senators on the committee, is here. Public Knowledge also provides a number of excellent talking points in an email urging readers to phone their senators..."

Please go to the article (see below) and click the "here" link (in bold above) to send an email to fight it.

The entire article can be found here:
http://www.eff.org/deeplinks/archives/003720.php

This is an example big business trying to get our government to work against us. Isn't this criminal or something?

 

[mfabien]

What exactly do you fear about the Broadcast Flag?

If you have a STB which is a legacy equipment without DVI or HDMI, you have nothing to worry about.

If you have a STB with DVI or HDMI and it's connected to your HDTV with this HDCP compliant connection, you have nothing to worry about.

If you have a STB/DVR with DVI or HDMI connected to your HDTV with this compliant connection, you have nothing to worry about.

If you use your computer with a compliant graphic card, one with DVI/HDCP compliant and it's connected to your HDTV with a compliant DVI or HDMI connection, you will be able to record on your HDD (but not be able to upload on the Internet) and you have nothing to worry about.

If you insist on keeping your Component cable connection between an HDCP compliant STB and your HDTV, then one day, for a given flagged program or movie, your image could be downrez to SD and that is your only worry.

HDCP is no big deal and it will not go away. If troublemakers have their way, good movies will not be aired via OTA. Cable companies and satellite providers are too smart to refuse content protection for their suppliers.

 

[b_panther_g]

Hi mfabien,

I strongly disagree with you about the broadcast flag.

The broadcast flag rules, as they were/are written give too much power to Hollywood and the FCC.

Hollywood is supposed to supply content. The FCC is supposed to regulate communications. The broadcast flag allows Hollywood (working through the FCC) to control all consumer and professional technology that plays video over 720 X 480 resolution.

Your PC argument does not hold water. PC cards are not considered “robust” against user intervention (or whatever the exact words of the broadcast flag rules say).

The broadcast flag GREATLY expands the rules and power of both Hollywood and the FCC.

Even the Supreme Court agrees. They didn't stop the broadcast flag because of copy protection issues. They stopped it because it was too broad, it covered to many technologies. Remember - ANYTHING that plays video over 720 x 480 (which isn't even Hi-Def) can be regulated by Hollywood and the FCC if this goes through.

I'm not against copy protection. I'm against these broadcast flag rules.

Later,
Panther

 

[mfabien]

Panther,

The Appeals Court ruled against perceived new territory exercised by the FCC, namely the imposition of an HDCP device during fabrication of electronic devices.

It is to be expected that Congress will legislate to enable the FCC to carry on.

The Content Protection has nothing to do with Power and everything to do with stopping the piracy of TV content over the Internet. The protocol will not cause you to miss any movie or program, or to have it in HD provided you use the appropriate compliant connection.

HDCP has nothing to do with 480i or 480p and programs or movies transmitted in that picture format.

Without the Broadcast Flag, there is no Content Protection (not copy protection).

 

[b_panther_g]

Panther,

The Appeals Court ruled against perceived new territory exercised by the FCC, namely the imposition of an HDCP device during fabrication of electronic devices.

Exactly. The broadcast flag is NOT limited to TV shows and movies.

It limits hardware. Therefore it limits EVERYTHING you can do with that hardware.

Put another way. If you need hardware (TVs, monitors, video cards, cell phones, etc.), to watch a video, the broadcast flag gets the power to regulate it.

The Content Protection has nothing to do with Power and everything to do with stopping the piracy of TV content over the Internet. The protocol will not cause you to miss any movie or program, or to have it in HD provided you use the appropriate compliant connection.

Not True. Here's an analogy...

It's like saying that I get the power to regulate any car the goes faster than 40 MPH – to improve safety. Now if you want to drive on the highway, you have to get my (or my friends) approval.

Oh by the way, we can change the approval requirements at any time. So you can drive on the highway this week, but next week you'll have to go to an “authorized mechanic” (who we select) to get your tires upgraded.

If you don't like my driving rules - stick to the back streets!

The broadcast flag, as it is written, gives exactly this kind of control over video. It's WRONG!

I'm not comfortable about letting a few private citizens (like you are I) in Hollywood, have that much control.

Without the Broadcast Flag, there is no Content Protection (not copy protection).

Again. Not True.

There are other (less drastic) ways to protect content. Ways that make the content just as secure.

All Hollywood has to do is broadcast their content with a broadcast flag. That way, if you want to view it, you can get their "recommended STB" to view it.

That works pretty well right now over the "pirate infested" Internet. If I want to watch a Real Video file, I need a real video player. If I want to watch a protected Windows Media file, I need Windows Media Player. Same thing for Apple's Quicktime format.

All Hollywood has to do is come up with a single format - like the kind they are proposing now.

Hollywood gets to digitally deliver and control their content, but everything else is left untouched.

I have no problem with that form of content protection. It's limits are reasonable. It offers just as much protection. It doesn't impose limits on ALL hardware.

It is to be expected that Congress will legislate to enable the FCC to carry on.

Unless the Constitution has changed, Congress is supposed to work for me (an American citizen). Not big business and their interests.


Just as a side note (Not directed to any one person)...
I don't know why Americans in general have no problem letting businesses and the press do whatever they want.

It is NOT OK for any business to buy politicians and have their friends at the news give it a positive spin. It's WRONG and it's corrupt.

OK – no more politics.


Thanks and enjoy,
Panther

 

[mfabien]

Exactly. The broadcast flag is NOT limited to TV shows and movies.

It limits hardware. Therefore it limits EVERYTHING you can do with that hardware.

Put another way. If you need hardware (TVs, monitors, video cards, cell phones, etc.), to watch a video, the broadcast flag gets the power to regulate it.

HDCP concerns HD only. The reception, recording and the display of HD.

Not True. Here's an analogy...

It's like saying that I get the power to regulate any car the goes faster than 40 MPH – to improve safety. Now if you want to drive on the highway, you have to get my (or my friends) approval.

Oh by the way, we can change the approval requirements at any time. So you can drive on the highway this week, but next week you'll have to go to an “authorized mechanic” (who we select) to get your tires upgraded.

If you don't like my driving rules - stick to the back streets!

The broadcast flag, as it is written, gives exactly this kind of control over video. It's WRONG!

I'm not comfortable about letting a few private citizens (like you are I) in Hollywood, have that much control.

I guess in your case it's a matter of principal. In my case, HDCP will not change one iota of my freedom. But it will permit me to enjoy HD programming and movies for years to come and the ability to record any HD transmitted and this will not be restricted in any way.

Again. Not True.

There are other (less drastic) ways to protect content. Ways that make the content just as secure.

All Hollywood has to do is broadcast their content with a broadcast flag. That way, if you want to view it, you can get their "recommended STB" to view it.

That works pretty well right now over the "pirate infested" Internet. If I want to watch a Real Video file, I need a real video player. If I want to watch a protected Windows Media file, I need Windows Media Player. Same thing for Apple's Quicktime format.

All Hollywood has to do is come up with a single format - like the kind they are proposing now.

Hollywood gets to digitally deliver and control their content, but everything else is left untouched.

I have no problem with that form of content protection. It's limits are reasonable. It offers just as much protection. It doesn't impose limits on ALL hardware.

Broadcasting Networks, cable companies and satellite service providers wish to be able to transmit the very best in HD products to sustain the health of their business. And they got together with Intel (Silicon Image) and the Electronic industry to create HDCP. Hollywood came into the picture after, once the protocol was designed. FCC came into the picture at the request of the consortium and, by that time, supported by MPAA.

So please understand that it is the TV channels (major Broadcasters) and the Electronic Industry who started this, not the movie industry. I want good HD, therefore I'm for a protocol which satisfies the parties and gives me what I want without restrictions. And I will have no restrictions.

I'll not comment on the political comments.

 

[b_panther_g]

HDCP concerns HD only. The reception, recording and the display of HD.

No. HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Content Protection) is NOT limited to HD (Hi-Def).

In my case, HDCP will not change one iota of my freedom. But it will permit me to enjoy HD programming and movies for years to come and the ability to record any HD transmitted and this will not be restricted in any way.

HDCP and the broadcast flag are 2 different things. Everyone (Hollywood, broadcasters, software companies) can have full HDCP without the broadcast flag.

HDCP is NOT the problem. The broadcast flag rules (as they stand now) are.

The broadcast flag goes beyond just protecting content. It regulates hardware.

Remember ANYTHING that plays video over 720 X 480 resolution, is affected.

Please note. The solution put forth above allows full HDCP.

Broadcasting Networks, cable companies and satellite service providers wish to be able to transmit the very best in HD products to sustain the health of their business. And they got together with Intel (Silicon Image) and the Electronic industry to create HDCP. Hollywood came into the picture after, once the protocol was designed. FCC came into the picture at the request of the consortium and, by that time, supported by MPAA. So please understand that it is the TV channels (major Broadcasters) and the Electronic Industry who started this, not the movie industry.

OK. I'm already aware of that...

I want good HD, therefore I'm for a protocol which satisfies the parties and gives me what I want without restrictions. And I will have no restrictions.

Again. The solution put forth above allows full HDCP.

You get the same exact HD. It doesn't affect the HDCP in any way.

The only difference between the proposed solution and the broadcast flag is that it (the proposed solution) doesn't give content creators (i.e. Hollywood) the right to regulate ALL video hardware manufacturers.

Why do content creators need to regulate ALL video hardware?

 

[mfabien]

Panther,

Sorry, you don't know what you are talking about.

I researched this whole question for the past 14 months.

 

[jotham]

I'm basically with panther

mfabien,

I don't doubt that you've researched the hell out of this issue. Nevertheless, research does not imply reaching correct conclusions.

A great deal of this issue is fundamental philosophies between the content distributers (Hollywood) and the content users (me). All I want to do is be able to buy the content for a reasonable price and use it on all of my hardware at full resolution. If I buy a CD, I want to use it on my iPod.

With current DVD and CD standards, I don't have any fair-use issues so I continue to buy the content though I deeply resent the price of CDs (DVDs are fairly priced).

As the restrictions for use get tighter and controls get more embedded, my desire for breaking the rules significantly increases. For examples, region codes which are a real pisser when I own the DVD and cannot watch it. So, I broke the region code, because it was a F**ked up model to begin with (there was no US copy of the movie).

As CDs with copy protection come out, I will crack them to use on my devices. Once the effort to do so gets beyond a certain point, I will start copying them off the internet and cease purchasing them.

I'm a computer geek by trade, and with my extensive experience, there is no such thing as uncrackable protection, it can only be made inconvenient. When the inconvenience of ownership outweighs the inconvenience of piracy, I will pirate and I will do it efficiently. This is the basic motto of almost all computer folks.

What I'm rambling towards, is that in general, many of the content distributors do not understand this fundamental principle. They truly believe they can make it functionally impossible to copy their content. They are wrong. They should be working toward a model of making it unnecessary to copy content because the content is readily available for a reasonable price with few restrictions.

The broadcast flag is a stride in the wrong direction, one that will lead to increased piracy not decreased. It shows a fundamental lack of understanding of consumers. I'm not aware of any other market that can lock people in successfully.

Lastly, I have to say mfabien, you sound like someone who works on this issue for Hollywood or the MPAA. It's not that your arguments aren't cogent, but rather that you aren't admitting to any reservations. This issue has many grey aspects to it and we would all be better served if we took that into account. The content creators have some legitimate fears. I just think they are approaching this the wrong way (probably due to bad advice).

 

[b_panther_g]

Hi mfabien,

I've been following this too.


If I understand you correctly, you're saying that...

1. The broadcast flag only affects HD (Hi-Def) content

2. The broadcast flag is the same as HDCP.



1.
The quote below is from the FCC broadcast flag proposal...

“...we believe that content owners are justifiably concerned about protecting all DTV broadcast content, including both standard definition and high definition formats, from indiscriminate retransmission in the future.”

Here the FCC is talking about protecting “ both standard definition and high definition formats”.

This shows that the broadcast flag is not limited to HD content.


2.
About HDCP and the broadcast flag...

According to Digital-CP.com
“HDCP is a specification developed by Intel Corporation to protect digital entertainment content across the DVI/HDMI interface. The HDCP specification provides a robust, cost-effective and transparent method for transmitting and receiving digital entertainment content to DVI/HDMI-compliant digital displays....”

This shows the HDCP is limited to DVI/HDMI devices (i.e. mostly DTVs).


Quote from the FCC broadcast flag proposal...
“The keystone of a flag protection system is the ubiquitous ability of reception
devices to respond and give effect to the redistribution control descriptor. Numerous commenters acknowledge the need for compliance and robustness requirements on some universe of reception devices; no consensus exists on its exact scope.98 For example, MPAA and the Digital
Transmission Licensing Administrator, LLC (“DTLA”) assert that all consumer electronics, personal computer (“PC”) or information technology (“IT”) products with demodulators that are used to receive DTV broadcast programming must respond and give effect to the ATSC flag.”

This shows that the FCC broadcast flag rules regulate a lot more than just DTVs.


These statements show that the 2 are not the same.

HDCP has reasonable limits. The FCC broadcast flag doesn't.


Could you tell me where I'm mistaken?


Enjoy,
Panther

 

[mfabien]

Hi mfabien,

I've been following this too.


If I understand you correctly, you're saying that...

1. The broadcast flag only affects HD (Hi-Def) content

2. The broadcast flag is the same as HDCP.



1.
The quote below is from the FCC broadcast flag proposal...

“...we believe that content owners are justifiably concerned about protecting all DTV broadcast content, including both standard definition and high definition formats, from indiscriminate retransmission in the future.”

Here the FCC is talking about protecting “ both standard definition and high definition formats”.

This shows that the broadcast flag is not limited to HD content.

If one uses an HDCP compliant connection, namely DVI or HDMI, the HDTV can receive DTV (Digital TV signal) which is SD digital (note that analog SD signal is not DTV) and HD digital. The Broadcast Flag will not be used for a SD program or movie, there is no point. The Broadcast Flag will be coded in only high value HD broadcasts. However, if one uses a DVI or HDMI STB output to a black listed piece of equipment, say a hacker's computer, and from there to an HDTV the HDCP handshake will not be completed and there will be no transmission of either SD or HD. In such case, the user may as well use a Component or even a S-Video connection to view the SD DTV program without a problem.

2.
About HDCP and the broadcast flag...

According to Digital-CP.com
“HDCP is a specification developed by Intel Corporation to protect digital entertainment content across the DVI/HDMI interface. The HDCP specification provides a robust, cost-effective and transparent method for transmitting and receiving digital entertainment content to DVI/HDMI-compliant digital displays....”



This shows the HDCP is limited to DVI/HDMI devices (i.e. mostly DTVs).

Said that. DTV is digital, therefore DVI and HDMI are digital to digital connections and are used for SD and HD transmission (DVI Auto is, for Picture Formats, the same as PassThrough... it changes from an HD Format to a SD format automatically). Broadcast Flag will be used only for what is precious and requires Content Protection, and that is HD.

Quote from the FCC broadcast flag proposal...
“The keystone of a flag protection system is the ubiquitous ability of reception
devices to respond and give effect to the redistribution control descriptor. Numerous commenters acknowledge the need for compliance and robustness requirements on some universe of reception devices; no consensus exists on its exact scope.98 For example, MPAA and the Digital
Transmission Licensing Administrator, LLC (“DTLA”) assert that all consumer electronics, personal computer (“PC”) or information technology (“IT”) products with demodulators that are used to receive DTV broadcast programming must respond and give effect to the ATSC flag.”

This shows that the FCC broadcast flag rules regulate a lot more than just DTVs.

Any electronic equipment with an HDCP device (DVI or HDMI) must comply to HDCP protocol and be able to complete the handshake. Otherwise, there is no communication and the Broadcast Flag then becomes of no use. What you should see is that there is no reason for any piece of electronic equipment to use a DVI or HDMI connection if there is no intention or capability in receiving HD signals. RCA composite cable does the job for DTV SD signal, S-Video does it better and, with Component cables, you can eve get your SD in 480p progressive scan.

These statements show that the 2 are not the same.

HDCP has reasonable limits. The FCC broadcast flag doesn't.


Could you tell me where I'm mistaken?

There cannot be a Broadcast Flag without HDCP and HDCP cannot be without a DVI or HDMI digital connection and appropriate handshake.

 

[mfabien]

BTW, provided HDCP is active, because the DVI or HDMI connection is enabled, please understand that a Broadcast Flag cannot impact a SD DTV program or movie.

FCC has overruled encryption.

The only impact a Broadcast Flag may have concerns a user of an HDCP compliant STB who uses Component connection rather than the appropriate DVI or HDMI connection. And in this case, the FCC has ruled that a Broadcaster may downrez the Component connection to SD (480i or 480p) but on condition that the Broadcaster has filled a 30 day advance notice of its intention to use downrez.

So you should now understand that the Broadcast Flag has no impact on SD programming. It simply cannot.

 

[b_panther_g]

Hi mfabien,

You wrote:
"If one uses an HDCP compliant connection, namely DVI or HDMI, the HDTV can receive DTV (Digital TV signal) which is SD digital (note that analog SD signal is not DTV) and HD digital. "

OK, you are now talking about HDCP. I'm with you here.


You wrote:
"The Broadcast Flag will not be used for a SD program or movie, there is no point. The Broadcast Flag will be coded in only high value HD broadcasts."

Sorry. But I can not find anywhere in the FCC proposal that states that the broadcast flag will only be used on HD broadcasts.

On the contrary, the proposal says content providers could use the broadcast flag on anything they feel needs to be protected. HD SD – it doesn't matter.



You wrote:
“However, if one uses a DVI or HDMI STB output to a black listed piece of equipment, say a hacker's computer, and from there to an HDTV the HDCP handshake will not be completed and there will be no transmission of either SD or HD.“

HDCP again. I'm with you here.



You wrote:
“Said that. DTV is digital, therefore DVI and HDMI are digital to digital connections and are used for SD and HD transmission (DVI Auto is, for Picture Formats, the same as PassThrough... it changes from an HD Format to a SD format automatically).”

HDCP again. I'm with you here.



You wrote:
“Broadcast Flag will be used only for what is precious and requires Content Protection, and that is HD.”

This is about the FCC broadcast flag.

Could you please say where you got your info?

According to the FCC proposal, anything that content creators see as precious can be flagged. HD or SD doesn't matter.



You wrote:
“Any electronic equipment with an HDCP device (DVI or HDMI) must comply to HDCP protocol and be able to complete the handshake. Otherwise, there is no communication and the Broadcast Flag then becomes of no use.”

Agreed.



You wrote:
"What you should see is that there is no reason for any piece of electronic equipment to use a DVI or HDMI connection if there is no intention or capability in receiving HD signals."

Not true.

What about video cards? What about computer monitors? What about future video cameras?

These are all...
“consumer electronics, personal computer (“PC”) or information technology (“IT”) products”

These all fall under the scope of the FCC broadcast flag.

The FCC broadcast flag is not limited to HDCP (DVI/HDMI). In fact it includes...
“some universe of reception devices; no consensus exists on its exact scope.”

and the FCC broadcast flag wants to include...
“consumer electronics, personal computer (“PC”) or information technology (“IT”) products”

Please remember, this includes SD devices. Not just HD devices.

The FCC broadcast flag does not limit itself to HD.




You wrote:
“RCA composite cable does the job for DTV SD signal, S-Video does it better and, with Component cables, you can eve get your SD in 480p progressive scan.”

OK. I know that analog can easily handle non-HD content.




You wrote:
“There cannot be a Broadcast Flag without HDCP and HDCP cannot be without a DVI or HDMI digital connection and appropriate handshake.”

Not quite...
There cannot be an ATSC flag without HDCP. And HDCP cannot be without a DVI or HDMI digital connection and appropriate handshake.

There can be HDCP without the FCC broadcast flag.

The FCC broadcast flag needs to be limited to HDCP devices.




You wrote:
“BTW, provided HDCP is active, because the DVI or HDMI connection is enabled, please understand that a Broadcast Flag cannot impact a SD DTV program or movie.”

Why not? The FCC broadcast flag is not DHCP. It goes beyond DHCP.




You wrote:
“FCC has overruled encryption.”

OK, I agree. But, I don't know why you said this. The FCC broadcast flag is not considered encryption.



You wrote:
“The only impact a Broadcast Flag may have concerns a user of an HDCP compliant STB who uses Component connection rather than the appropriate DVI or HDMI connection.”

Again. Not true. Any device that can display video over a certain SD resolution is affected.

Here's a quote from a CNET article about FCC Flag...
“FCC rules would have required content protection technology to be designed into all devices receiving DTV signals and into any downstream devices--such as monitors – recorders – home networks to prevent "indiscriminate redistribution" of the content on the Internet. “

You can find the entire article at...
http://news.com.com/Why+the+broadcast+flag+wont+work/2010-1071_3-5720006.html

The bottom line is – The FCC broadcast flag affects a lot more products that you say.

It is not just about component connections, Digital TVs and STBs. And that is the problem.




You wrote:
“And in this case, the FCC has ruled that a Broadcaster may downrez the Component connection to SD (480i or 480p) but on condition that the Broadcaster has filled a 30 day advance notice of its intention to use downrez.“

OK. That's fine.





I hope you see the point.

The FCC broadcast flag affects a lot of devices. It's scope goes way beyond just DTV.

If it were limited to DTVs and other HDCP devices, no one (who doesn't pirate content) would really care.

I wouldn't really care.

Enjoy,
Panther

 

[mfabien]

The Broadcast Flag is associated with and has impact with HD only. To quote the MPAA: "We are hopeful that the broadcast flag will enable content providers to release more of their programming in HDTV format"

http://www.mpaa.org/Press/Broadcast_Flag_QA.htm

The worst case scenario of non compliance with the Broadcast Flag is a downrez from 1080i or 720p to 480i or 480p in picture format. SD is already with 480i or 480p, so explain how can the Broadcast Flag hurt a person wishing to look at a SD program !

 

[Catdaddy]

I, personally, dont have a problem with and kind of copy protection on HD-DVDs. On broadcasts, as long as I am able to record them and watch them on HD on my D-VHS recorder, even if I would not be able to play them elsewhere, that would be ok, too.

 

[mfabien]

I, personally, dont have a problem with and kind of copy protection on HD-DVDs. On broadcasts, as long as I am able to record them and watch them on HD on my D-VHS recorder, even if I would not be able to play them elsewhere, that would be ok, too.

I notice that you are using the SA3250HD STB (which is not a DVR)

As for D-VHS, the DTCP protocol applies. You will be able to record most if not all your HD broadcasts. The only exception will be some programs coded with the Broadcast Flag which may incorporate the DTCP "Copy Never" code inserted in the Broadcast Flag code. But I would expect the great majority of flagged coded programs or movies to have the "Copy Once" code rather than the "Copy Never" code. This in keeping with the general objective of the Broadcast Flag not to interfere with time shifting and other general features associated with private television viewing. My sense is that a "Copy Never" situation would take place rarely and would involve a dramatic and exclusive showing of some blockbuster type movie.