Tannoy Mercury MKII crossover ( upgrade possiblility's )

[AsRock]

Hello, believe it or not i been visiting these forum's for many years but never got around in registering, but better late than never right .
Anyways after finally getting my hands on some Tannoy Mercury back int he 90's (M20) i always wanted another pair and about 3 month ago actually was able to get some Tannoy Mercury MKII how ever they were in dire need of repair as all the surrounds were rotten, well been a few months since they were repaired and recovered them too, now happy with how they look i want to look a bit further in to making them sound better.
I came across some MKII tweeters a few days ago and were sold with the tweeters so they been sitting here only a day touting me so while taking them apart and having a closer look not liking what i was seeing with tolerance's being as high as 10% which i have no idea how bad that's gotten over the last.
The ones from the actual speakers are untouched the guy i got them from traveled with them taking them to France to China due to work finally ending up in the US so they been around and been very well looked after until what looks like the last years being put in storage.
If you want the progress it can be found here, not trying to advertise a tech site or any thing like that it's a place i often go and try to encourage even gamers need more than Logitech . Plus all the pictures are there too.
https://www.techpowerup.com/forums/threads/tannoy-mercury-mkii-revival.228159/
Well looking in to upgrading the resisters and caps and coils, not to sure about changing the design. Thought that maybe a option IF Tannoy Gold versions had this or just more accurate parts.
The caps say Rifa 40\100\56 on front side, the back says 100v PHE 280 DG 768 and the side saying 6.8uF +\- 10%.
As for the resistors 10Ohm 10% 8w, and the other not so clear 3R3 5% 8w.
As for the coils i am not sure the correct why to find replacements.

I was pointed at this for the caps but wanted to see if there is better options at a reasonable price.
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-pmpc-68-68uf-250v-precision-audio-capacitor--027-238
Last though would be i after better parts but without costing the earth, but must add i like my music it pretty loud.
I been though so many speakers over the years and i keep going back to them, i have some Tannoy F4's too other than having a lower bass response i like my MKII much more, party due to height and room size and hate them for cheeping out so much with plastic frames which i am sure like a lot of plastics decay but that's another story..

Thank You.

P.S Apparently this forum don't work with Seamonkey .

 

[Swerd]

Welcome to Audioholics .

Anyways after finally getting my hands on some Tannoy Mercury back int he 90's (M20) i always wanted another pair and about 3 month ago actually was able to get some Tannoy Mercury MKII how ever they were in dire need of repair as all the surrounds were rotten, well been a few months since they were repaired and recovered them too, now happy with how they look i want to look a bit further in to making them sound better.

Now that you've listened to the newer Mercury MKII speakers and directly compared them to your older Mercury M20 speakers, do they sound similar or different?

I came across some MKII tweeters a few days ago and were sold with the tweeters so they been sitting here only a day touting me so while taking them apart and having a closer look not liking what i was seeing with tolerance's being as high as 10% which i have no idea how bad that's gotten over the last.

Tolerances of ±10% among drivers and crossover parts is common among all but the most expensive speakers. I see no reason for worry. Why did you buy the tweeters? Just to have extras in case the originals fail?

Well looking in to upgrading the resisters and caps and coils, not to sure about changing the design. Thought that maybe a option IF Tannoy Gold versions had this or just more accurate parts.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Unless you have frequency response measurements of the original design that clearly show a problem that could be corrected by a redesigned crossover, don't go there.

I know replacing caps, coils, and resistors is often talked about on various speaker forums. Many doubtful claims are made how doing that resulted in improved sound. Replacing existing crossover parts without knowing they are defective will accomplish nothing. And it may get you into unanticipated trouble if you've never done that kind of work before.

Some (but not all) old non-polar electrolytic (NPE) caps can go bad by either drying out or failing. You can see some failed NPE caps if they've swollen or leaked. Those can be replaced. But recommending that you replace all older crossover caps is wrong, and anyone who tells you to do that is giving bad advice.

As far as those web pages where people claim hearing large sound quality differences due to different capacitor materials… run away!

The Dayton 6.8 µF cap rated at ±1% that you linked is no different or better than the less expensive Dayton cap rated at ±5%. Those that I've had in my hands have measured identical and both have capacitance values exactly as marked. I suspect the 1% and 5% caps are manufactured the same. The caps labeled 1% have been inspected and checked to be within 1% tolerance and the 5% caps haven't been inspected. It isn't worth the extra cost.

These type of metallized polypropylene (MPP) caps are good quality and will never go out of spec like the older NPE caps can. For new DIY builds, I would use only MPP caps unless the very low price of NPE caps is required. But replacing older caps with new MPP caps of the same capacitance value will not change the quality of sound you hear in your speakers.

The same is true for resistors and inductor coils. Unless they are visibly broken or burned, keep them as they are.

 

[AsRock]

Now that you've listened to the newer Mercury MKII speakers and directly compared them to your older Mercury M20 speakers, do they sound similar or different?

Could not really say as when i had the M20's it was the mid 90's when i used to live in the UK with totally different gear that's some time ago, how ever i just love the sound stage, I have tried concentric tweeter and other metal type tweeters and always find them to T and S. I have some Paradigm 5se too they have more bass but to me the Tannoy MKII have a much better sound stage.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Unless you have frequency response measurements of the original design that clearly show a problem that could be corrected by a redesigned crossover, don't go there.

Yeah true that, but for ever the tinker, when i was 3 my mother told me i had taken apart her betamax .

Thing is about the Tannoy Mercury's they often had a Gold version too which i would love to see if they changed the crossovers in any way or used better % parts. I know they used hardwood cabinets but finding some of those is like waiting for a blue moon.

Maybe i reading to much into article like these which there been a few on this site i have been reading.
http://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/the-loudspeaker-crossover/the-loudspeaker-crossover-the-brains-of-your-system-part-ii-page-2

Cannot find the article about how much it effects overall sound.

Tolerances of ±10% among drivers and crossover parts is common among all but the most expensive speakers. I see no reason for worry. Why did you buy the tweeters? Just to have extras in case the originals fail?

I guess the best thing i could do is find all resistors and capacitors and find the best ones of the bunch of the ones i have and leave it to that, but i guess that be for the hell of it and because i have them already.

I have blown a tweeter in the passed, although might be only one over a hell of a long time, the fact is i do really like the 80's Tannoy Mercury and would be totally pissed if one failed. The guy i got them of was selling them as a pair which is why i ended up with 2. And finding one when you need one is normally very time consuming.

I would love to see how the Golds crossover's were done but never been able to find any pictures on them.

Thanks for replying.

 

[Swerd]

I misread and thought you had both the M20 and the MkII now.

Thing is about the Tannoy Mercury's they often had a Gold version too which i would love to see if they changed the crossovers in any way or used better % parts. I know they used hardwood cabinets but finding some of those is like waiting for a blue moon.

See if you can find schematic diagrams of the crossovers in the various versions of the Mercury.

Any differences in their sound is far more likely to be due to different drivers and/or different crossover designs.

 

[TLS Guy]

You have to be very careful upgrading crossovers. Often the inductors need to be cheaper with thinner wire to add resistance. This is especially true of inductors in the high pass side of the crossover. You can upgrade these to exotics and change the Q of the filter, and get increased roll off of the tweeter and a dip in frequency response..

You always allow and calculate internal resistances in the design model, or at least you should.

 

[AsRock]

I misread and thought you had both the M20 and the MkII now.

That would of been nice, i was going though so many speakers back then it was crazy as they were always popping up in the local paper.

Any differences in their sound is far more likely to be due to different drivers and/or different crossover designs.

Could be, as i have notice a small change with the golds tweeter but do not know if it's just cosmetic.

I have had no luck what so ever finding layouts for these or any other tbh.

You have to be very careful upgrading crossovers. Often the inductors need to be cheaper with thinner wire to add resistance. This is especially true of inductors in the high pass side of the crossover. You can upgrade these to exotics and change the Q of the filter, and get increased roll off of the tweeter and a dip in frequency response..
You always allow and calculate internal resistances in the design model, or at least you should.

Yeah i have always noticed that in most speaker were the HF coil is the thinner.
I will only be testing all the parts just to see they are fully working and if they are close to the other part, So the 2 film caps i will take of each crossover and test to see if they are close to each other as they could of been put on because they were both same percentage at the time.
I even left the glass fiber or a like stuff in them as it's very well placed in the cabinets.
Thank You both for responding.
I do wounder why this forum will not let Seamonkey to post as i like it over other browsers.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd not heard of Seamonkey so thought I'd try it. Am using it now. Were you trying to post a link or something?

 

[AsRock]

Sorry for the delay, i cannot post with it. clicking the post reply it just greys out and turns back blue again. And any ad blocking has been disabled.

 

[lovinthehd]

Sorry for the delay, i cannot post with it. clicking the post reply it just greys out and turns back blue again. And any ad blocking has been disabled.

Weird. I had no issues with it. Doubt it's the browser but rather something else you've got going on....but you might try searching or asking about it in this subforum http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/audio/site-suggestions-feedback.17/

 

[AsRock]

Had to turn on 3rd party cookie's .

 

[jonconjaycee]

Hi AsRock, I have a pair of Mercury mk II which I am restoring, I tried getting the schematics for the crossovers from Tannoy without success. Would you have a copy or know what components were used? Thanks in advance

 

[AsRock]

I'll check later for you little busy atm.

The capacitor is a Mylar Riva 40/100/56, the resistors are marked as R3R 5% 8w ( cannot see ohm on it ) and the other is 10Ohm 10% 8w. If i can over the next few days get you a few pictures to show how they are wired up.

And TANNOY told me the same too but they are no longer British and that info has probably been lost now along with the quality as the last pair of the newer TANNOY's they had crappy plastic frames lol.

I see what i can find out over the next few days for you.

 

[TLS Guy]

I'll check later for you little busy atm.

The capacitor is a Mylar Riva 40/100/56, the resistors are marked as R3R 5% 8w ( cannot see ohm on it ) and the other is 10Ohm 10% 8w. If i can over the next few days get you a few pictures to show how they are wired up.

And TANNOY told me the same too but they are no longer British and that info has probably been lost now along with the quality as the last pair of the newer TANNOY's they had crappy plastic frames lol.

I see what i can find out over the next few days for you.

Yes, another great British manufacturer turned into a purveyor of Chinese junk. Their long time factory in Scotland is to be closed. The consumers are to blame for their insatiable appetite for poorly made, soon to be junked goods. This is expensive in the long run and sets up a vicious circle of cheap junk and declining incomes so all the populous can afford is junk!

Wake up people!

 

[Swerd]

Yes, another great British manufacturer turned into a purveyor of Chinese junk. Their long time factory in Scotland is to be closed. The consumers are to blame for their insatiable appetite for poorly made, soon to be junked goods. This is expensive in the long run and sets up a vicious circle of cheap junk and declining incomes so all the populous can afford is junk!

I might reword that to say:

Yet another formerly great British manufacturer whose name was sold and is now used to sell poorly made junk.

Not all British-made audio goods were great, and not all Chinese-made audio goods are junk.

 

[TLS Guy]

I might reword that to say:

Yet another formerly great British manufacturer whose name was sold and is now used to sell poorly made junk.

Not all British-made audio goods were great, and not all Chinese-made audio goods are junk.

Quod scripsi, scripsi.

 

[jonconjaycee]

Thank you, I have got in touch with a Tannoy authorized repair centre as per the Tannoy website, and they said to send in the speaker serial numbers and they will try and find out.

 

[AsRock]

You can see the layout wit this pic, if you know some were that allows bigger pictures let me know as this is much smaller than the original.

Sadly though you cannot see which is which resistor as they always glued it label facing away. The thicker wire's are to the woofer and thin are to the tweeter.

All if some one could let me know the best way to test the coils i might be able to so you can find some close to them.

EDIT: the inductors Ohms are 0.6 and 1.4 for the larger one.

 

[jonconjaycee]

Thanks for the pic AsRock . There are two inductors, two Resistors and One Capacitor for each speaker?.
Do you know the Henry unit for the inducors?
I havent had any reply from the HiFI shop regarding the Schematics but it is early days.

 

[AsRock]

Whats pictured is whats in each cabinet.

 

[AsRock]

Did you ever got this sorted out ?, and no i do not know. Sorry for missing the question.