Subs for frequencies UNDER 20 Hz

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by alexwakelin, Jan 27, 2009.

  1. alexwakelin Full Audioholic

    alexwakelin
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    I've been renting movies from this list over at AVS:

    http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755493

    After seeing how low the bass on some of these movies actually goes (0 Hz? :eek:), it got me wondering what type of subwoofer actually performs well in the in the 0-20 Hz range. I'm sure the answer is something I can't afford, but I'm still curious.

    PS, I'm still quite happy with my DIY Kappa Perfect 12 ;)
  2. blued888 Audioholic

    blued888
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    PB13-Ultra fares well below 20Hz given its price.
  3. Adam Audioholic Jedi

    Adam
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    I've only run test tones down to 16Hz, but my PC13-Ultra does quite well in my room. There's just something about watching the SPL meter move when I can't hear a thing.
    Adam,
  4. OttoMatic Senior Audioholic

    OttoMatic
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    I don't know exactly the subs that will go < 20 Hz. I'm sure there are some SVS tubes that will do it and probably some of their box subs. Maybe some HSU. Maybe the JL Fathom stuff ($$$).

    Of course, anything at "0 Hz" is inaudible -- that's just DC, so if someone tells you they're "hearing" or "feeling" 0 Hz, you know they're full of crap.

    If I were going to try to get < 20 Hz, I would look at DIY in LLTs or IBs. You'll be able to do that for ~$1K, I would guess. I have a nice IB, and it was ~$1k. While I have EQ'd it using a Behringer DCX2496, and it shows output at < 20 Hz, I haven't bothered to check it against various movies to see exactly how low it goes. My personal opinion, though, is that it sounds "pretty dang good" for both music and movies.
  5. alexwakelin Full Audioholic

    alexwakelin
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    I'm not sure what was used to make the graphs they post over at AVS, but Cloverfield (and many other movies) appear to have solid LFE down to 0 Hz.

    [​IMG]
  6. Sheep Audioholic Warlord

    Sheep
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    Hz are cycles per second. 0 is nothing. 0 cycles per second = no sound.

    If you really want a meaningful low output mark for a subwoofer setup, 15Hz would be the max. There isn't much content below that, and it would need to be played at much louder levels then 25-60Hz bass just so you would experience it.

    To give you an example of the frequency response of the human ear, a 20Hz tone has to be 60dB higher then a 1KHz tone to be heard at the same volume. To increase the sound by 60 decibels, you have to multiply the power input by 1 million. Now, it doesn't take much power to produce 1KHz, but 10Hz or 5Hz at perceived volumes will require lots of air to be moved. 1 single subwoofer won't do all of these without being quite extensive (IB, LARGE LT). Another option is a bass shaker, which can get you tactile sensations to roughly 5Hz, but it's not a speaker, and would only be useful for those certain movies. At the end of the day, flat to 20Hz with a bit of room gain to 15Hz will be more then enough for 99% of the content out there. I think you're just getting a little excited over one graph. Besides, Cloverfield is awful.

    SheepStar
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  7. WmAx Audioholic Samurai

    WmAx
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    For about $1500 or so, one can DIY a sealed and relatively small (5 cubic feet) unit using an Audio Pulse AXIS 15", Behringer Ep2500 amplifier, a DCX246 for FR compensation and xover and including wood/materials. It will have very high output down to about 12-13 Hz along with very very low distortion. Is 12Hz low enough? In an average size (2000 cubic foot) room, you should be able to achieve about 107-110 db at 12-14Hz, or 125-130db at 30-35Hz, with the above set up.

    I don't know of a retail subwoofer, box store or I.D., that will match the DIY solution above even if you spend 2x the $$. At best, you might match it, given you spend enough, which will be a considerable amount. But I'm still not aware of a retail sub at any price that could match it, with the possible exception of the 2 x 13" JL Audio Gotham that costs a small fortune. Don't forget that with the true 2000 watt amplifier (EP2500), you can only use roughly 1/2 the linear excursion of the driver above. The amp will clip long before you begin to near the driver limitations. So, given an amp with 3x the power, you can still get another 4-5 dB(nearly 2x! the SPL!) of clean output.

    -Chris
    WmAx,
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  8. highfigh Audioholic Spartan

    highfigh
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    0 Hz means there's no cone movement and if it's a positive signal going to the speaker, the voice coil won't last long but it's not moving any air. If you can't hear it, can you feel it? Of the answer is NO, what's the point? If you can't feel or hear it, the speaker isn't producing it and if it's producing 107-110 dB, it definitely not doing your house any favors.
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  9. Adam Audioholic Jedi

    Adam
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    Reminds of the sound of one hand clapping.
    Adam,
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  10. ParadigmDawg Audioholic Warlord

    ParadigmDawg
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    I think I want one of these;)

    *EDIT* I just looked at my signature, seems I already have one....
  11. Midcow2 Banned

    Midcow2
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    If you want to get asymptotically close to 0 Hz get the Thor's Hammer

    If you want to get asymptotically close to 0 Hz get the Thor's Hammer!

    Introducing Thor’s Hammer:

    Thor is popularly known as the Norse god of thunder. He is often depicted carrying a short-handled hammer named Mjollnir, a symbol of his awesome power. Thunder is a fitting symbol to associate with Wilson Audio’s new state-of-the-art subwoofer. Truth be told, our product might conceivably give Thor an inferiority complex. Thunder, you see, primarily occupies the frequency spectrum from 20-120 hertz. Thor’s Hammer (the subwoofer) is capable of reproducing—at full volume—the lowest pipe organ note at 16 Hz.

    http://www.wilsonaudio.com/product/thor/

    http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/1012/wilson-audio-thors-hammer-subwoofer

    Good Luck!

    MidCow2
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  12. Chopin_Guy Senior Audioholic

    Chopin_Guy
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    Thigpen Rotary...

    Since we are on the subject of truly killer subwoofers---I thought I would trow this out there. The Catholic parish where I'm director of music will be purchasing a new organ so I have been doing lots of research and traveling to play instruments. We are actually going to be getting an electronic organ as that will function best and give us the most flexibility in our 900 seat church.

    During my research I came across the company Marshall & Ogletree who are certainly the worlds finest manufacturer of digital 'virtual' pipe organs. These instruments can go into the price range of $3 million dollars, like the installation in the Trinity Wall Street Church whose organ was destroyed in the Sept. 11 attacks. (The Def Tech "Trinity" subwoofer was designed for this installation---they used some insane number of them for the organs pedal stops.)

    In any event, Marshall & Olgretree has now gone back to many of their previous installations to upgrade and now use the Thigpen Rotary subwoofers in their new organ installations....

    Ogletree claims, that using these woofers in their installations, that they have been able to create 110dbl at 8hz and even below that as well. For reference 8hz is the lowest C in the pedal on a 64' stop---which is the longest stop and very few real pipe organs have these. The 16hz you hear talked about so often is the lowest C on a 32' stop.

    In any event, this sounds pretty spectacular. I heard the Trinity Wall Street organ when it had the Def Tech Trinitys and it was spectacular for an electronic organ, unless you knew, you probably wouldn't know you were listening to an electronic instrument. I can only imagine what thier new installations sound like with the Thigpens...

    Here's a couple of links and you can see their instruments:

    http://www.marshallogletree.com/

    http://www.marshallogletree.com/thigpen/thigpen-ad.pdf
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2009
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  13. annunaki Moderator

    annunaki
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    For extreme LF response, I would look at a DIY option with the 18" Maelstrom-X. I believe it was about a 15ft^3 vented enclosure tuned to 14 hz. -3db point at around 12hz anechoic. Of course one does need the space available for such a monster.

    I would also consider the 15" Audiopulse Axis drivers or the 15" TC Sounds LMT/LMS woofers. They require a lot of power but can dig VERY deep.

    Either choice would remain highly linear through the operating range with high ammounts of sound Q to boot.
  14. Shock Audioholic General

    Shock
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    Isn't having a speaker produce no sound not useful at all?

    Is it mainly for the feeling?
  15. Sheep Audioholic Warlord

    Sheep
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    Tactile sensations. The things I was giving you last night.

    SheepStar
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  16. Adam Audioholic Jedi

    Adam
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    I honestly just shuddered.
    Adam,
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  17. ParadigmDawg Audioholic Warlord

    ParadigmDawg
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    I threw up in my mouth a little....
  18. jamie2112 Banned

    jamie2112
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    Not that there is anything wrong with that......:D
  19. clouso Banned

    clouso
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    0hz!

    Most movies dont even go down to 10hz...so a sub that can go down between 15-20hz is quite enough...and dont forget that the specs for subs are measured at -3db!
  20. Sheep Audioholic Warlord

    Sheep
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    Few things to correct in this post..

    1.) Some movies DO go down below 10Hz with significant output, they are just few and VERY fare between, so using this as criteria for purchasing is stupid.

    2.) Not all manufactures specifications are created equal. Take Definitive Technology for example.

    SheepStar

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