Sub shopper seeks feedback

[theJman]

I don't handle money that way. I can afford any subwoofer if that's what I want to do with my money. That doesn't mean I should buy the most expensive one.

You should go back and read my post, not read into it. I never suggested you buy the most expensive one, all I said was to buy the best one you could afford. Totally different thing.

 

[Adam]

You should go back and read my post, not read into it. I never suggested you buy the most expensive one, all I said was to buy the best one you could afford. Totally different thing.

I don't think that he read into it. Rather, I think that he just stated his mentality to help us understand. Some people come up with a price point and then try to find the best product for that money (i.e. getting the best that they can financially afford). fmw, however, has now made it clear that he can financially afford any sub (well, I'm sure not any sub ), so he's just looking at what he considers to be a good value that gets him what he wants. As Philip stated, now he needs to define more clearly what it is that he really wants, if only to himself.

 

[rnatalli]

I hadn't gotten that far but I think anywhere under $1000 would be appropriate for my system.

At $1K, I would go with the Rythmik myself with HSU a close second.

 

[Steve81]

Here are my preconceived notions:

The bigger the box and the bigger the driver, the louder and deeper the result
Ported subs are boomier and less musical than sealed ones
Subs are high in distortion but rarely publish distortion figures

To offer my 2 cents, I'd give the recommendation of perusing Josh Ricci's website, data-bass.com. There you can get reasonably detailed measurements to objectively compare a nice variety of subwoofers and get some idea of what can be achieved at various price points.

Of course, you'll also find things that may challenge your preconceptions; for example you can look at the JBL 4645c and note that in spite of the fact that it is a very large sub with an 18" driver, it doesn't dig particularly deep. You can also note that even though the JBL is a big daddy ported subwoofer, it posts good results on the waterfall, spectrogram, and group delay plots. As far as distortion goes, I think you'd also be impressed at what even a good affordable sub could do. The Outlaw LFM-1 EX for example can deliver 100dB @ 2 meters outdoors from 25Hz on up with near perfect linearity and under 5% distortion in that range.

 

[Steve81]

No. If a port is implemented improperly, then it can screw things up (as anything improperly implemented can screw things up), but basically boominess (if inherent in the sub rather than in its placement) is a matter of distortion and/or not having a flat frequency response and/or improper setup/level. Whether a subwoofer is sealed or ported will not tell you the level of distortion or the flatness of the frequency response or whether one has adjusted it too high.

FWIW, one additional thing to keep in mind is a room's transfer function (aka room gain) versus the native frequency response of the sub you're interested in. A lot of rooms (particularly smaller, well sealed off spaces) will tend to boost the low end below 32Hz or so, which can leave a sub with a perfectly linear response down to 20Hz or lower in outdoor testing with a bottom heavy response in room.

 

[fmw]

Thanks for the input. I think $1000 or less will do it for me. The money would come out of my new car savings fund and getting a new car is more important than getting a new subwoofer. Any sub is going to delay the new car. So, any comments on the Rhythmik 15" sealed unit and any comments of metallic vs. paper cones?

 

[Steve81]

So, any comments on the Rhythmik 15" sealed unit and any comments of metallic vs. paper cones?

I gave some thoughts on their top sealed unit here:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/subwoofers/86022-rythmik-audio-f15hp-subwoofer-preview.html

The non-hp version will presumably knock off a couple dB worth of total output capability, but I wouldn't expect any other big differences. Re: the metal vs paper cones offered, IIRC, the main difference was top end extension for mating to smaller satellite speakers.

 

[fmw]

FWIW, one additional thing to keep in mind is a room's transfer function (aka room gain) versus the native frequency response of the sub you're interested in. A lot of rooms (particularly smaller, well sealed off spaces) will tend to boost the low end below 32Hz or so, which can leave a sub with a perfectly linear response down to 20Hz or lower in outdoor testing with a bottom heavy response in room.

I think this company has an option for an eq which might be a valuable addition. I once had a set of speakers with 2 12" woofers and a 12" passive radiator for the bass per side. They were pretty dark sounding and certainly didn't need any help from an outboard subwoofer. I'm not looking for a dark sound. I just want to get the bass accurately and tight. Thanks for the link to your post. Apparently nobody has heard this puppy. It seems like steal based on the specs and price.

 

[shadyJ]

If I had a $1k budget for a sub, I would go DIY. I would go for either a Mach 5 UXL driver, a 1 kW Behringer amp, and a miniDSP, or a couple SI 18" D4s and an iNuke amp with a miniDSP. To save a few dollars I would look for a used amp to keep the whole budget under $1k shipped. Those setups would absolutely own any commercial subwoofer you can buy at twice the cost. However, they would be a bit of a project to put together.

I would tell the OP, if he isn't interested in making a big project out of it, check out this kit. It is under $1k delivered and isn't a big project at all, because all you have to do is assemble it. The hard part is already done. All you need is a screwdriver, some glue, and maybe an hour of assembly time. The drivers will be fairly high quality ones, probably better than what you find in Hsu and Outlaw subs and certainly better than what you will get with a PSA sub. For a better driver in a commercial sub, you would have to look at higher than $1k subs, and with the Dayton kit you get two such drivers. This means low distortion, high output, good linearity, good compression behavior, and high sound quality.

 

[fmw]

Oh no! You shouldn't have done that. Now you've sent me off looking at DIY sites. I only did one pair of DIY speakers in my life. They turned out pretty well. They were an MTM arrangement using Vifa drivers (8" mid/woofs and a 1" soft dome tweeter) and an off-the-shelf crossover. I used them as recording monitors for several years. I could certainly fire up the table saw and get to work on a sub cabinet. Which are the "hot" drivers in 15" size? I'll ponder that idea for a while.

 

[ImcLoud]

DIY would be the way to go...

couple of these Dayton Audio 15" Ultimax Subwoofer and Cabinet Package 300-7097
one of these Crown XLS 1500 DriveCore Series Power Amplifier 245-502

and another $80 on spikes, glue, paint, stuffing, wire, and terminals... DONE- where is the Easy button?

 

[shadyJ]

The Ultimax look great. The SI 15 wouldn't be bad, if they are in stock. The Rythmik DS1510 would be good if you can mate it with a Rythmik amp. The IS IXL 15.2 is looking pretty good. Of course the TC Sounds ones would be terrific if you can spend the money, but I have read that the motors for the last batch of the Axis got shipped without being magnetized. REaudio XXX 15s would be good as well, if you can swing the cost of them.

 

[fmw]

Interesting thought. I happen to have a Yamaha P3500S power amp that is doing nothing at the moment. It weighs almost as much as a complete subwoofer by itself. In bridged mode, it should produce about 1500 clean honest 20-20 watts at 4 ohms. There would be no control other than volume so I assume the receiver's bass management would handle the crossover. It really is pretty simple isn't it? Just make or buy a box and grille, apply some nice looking veneer, wire a terminal to the voice coil and connect an amp. With that much clean power and a sealed box, I should be good to go.

 

[shadyJ]

You are still going to want to EQ the sub. miniDSP looks like a good inexpensive solution for that.

 

[fmw]

You are still going to want to EQ the sub. miniDSP looks like a good inexpensive solution for that.

Yes, I suppose so. Even though ready made subs don't have EQ for the most part, might as do it right. I use a Pioneer receiver and I don't think it deals with subwoofer EQ at all.

 

[rnatalli]

I use a Pioneer receiver and I don't think it deals with subwoofer EQ at all.

You're correct as MCACC stops at 63Hz I believe. Fortunately, there are some inexpensive options such as using REW with MiniDSP or Behringer.

 

[fmw]

I've been doing a lot of reading and I'm getting convinced that a DIY sub would not only offer some fun in the building but good performance as well. I'm down to cosmetic things now. I don't like the concept of a subwoofer box with a big silver pro audio amp sitting on top of it or next to it. The spaces in my home theater console furniture won't handle something as wide as a rack mount amp unless it were to sit it on top of my center speaker behind the grill cloth. What a hassle turning the thing on and off. Perhaps the the answer is just to use a plate amp with a parametric EQ and be done with it. Shame not to use such a nice amp. Still reading and noodling.

 

[Adam]

Perhaps the the answer is just to use a plate amp with a parametric EQ and be done with it. Shame not to use such a nice amp.

Assuming that your sub box is big enough, could you just "rack" mount the Yamaha into the box? I'm sure that somebody has tried putting a non-plate amp into a DIY sub. Just curious...

 

[fmw]

Assuming that your sub box is big enough, could you just "rack" mount the Yamaha into the box? I'm sure that somebody has tried putting a non-plate amp into a DIY sub. Just curious...

Sure, that would be possible. It would require building a box from scratch to get the internal volume of the cabinet right. It would also have to be sealed since I'm not planning to build a ported sub. I'm not fond of that idea either. Perhaps I should just sell the amp to someone else.

 

[fmw]

Sure it would be possible. It would require building a box from scratch to get the internal volume right and it would also require sealing the amp. It's big heavy amp. I'm not fond of the idea. Perhaps I'll just sell the amp so I'll stop worrying about not using it.