Sub integration options similar to REL?

[aggmiami]

I'd previously started a thread over at AVSForums regarding a speaker selection process that I have been currently undergoing. One particular question from that thread dealt with the integration of a pair of PMC Twenty.21's and an REL sub. While at a dealer audition, I was impressed at how well the PMC's and REL meshed together as if a full tower.

One poster on the site said the following..."REL subs are designed specifically to be integrated best with the speakers, hence you do not even need a sub out on your preamp. It's made to be wired along the back posts of your amp where your 2 channel speaker binding posts are." Coincidentally, the dealer had also made a comment about the connection option and the fact that you could set the bookshelf speakers to "Full" in the integrated amp...which happened to be a NAD 150w integrated.

So, my question is, with regards to subs, are REL's the only ones that offer this type of integration? Can this not be done with sealed subs from SVS, Rythmik, HSU, etc???

Also, if I needed additional amplification for the Twenty.21's and wanted to have a similar connection setup to my Emotiva 12" sub as mentioned above with the REL's, how would I go about that? I currently have a Denon avr-1910 that has a pair of pre-outs which could be run to a 2-channel Emotiva amp for example.

Thanks

 

[markw]

Theoretically, any subs with speaker level inputs and and outputs can be used this way. This presumes the sub will strip out any lows from the main speakers. Not all subs do, but many speakers will graciously accept a full range signal without complaining.

While this might work great for two channel stereo, for full-blown HT you would want a more comprehensive bass management system like that found in AVR's.

 

[aggmiami]

Theoretically, any subs with speaker level inputs and and outputs can be used this way. This presumes the sub will strip out any lows from the main speakers. Not all subs do, but many speakers will graciously accept a full range signal without complaining.

Could you elaborate more as to what I should be looking for in a sub that would identify this desired feature? Is it subject to the manual controls on the back of a sub? Is it simply the fact that the connection being used is speaker level? Just in simple terms as I think through it, it would seem like the speaker would not know where to hand off the low frequency and the sub would be playing whatever it can? In essence, it could be a bloated mess of a sound.

While this might work great for two channel stereo, for full-blown HT you would want a more comprehensive bass management system like that found in AVR's.

Okay, I see what you are saying. However, if one were to have a pair of subs providing double duty for both HT and the 2-channel mentioned above, would it be as simple as connecting both speaker level inputs AND LFE simultaneously? Would the AVR distinguish between the need to use LFE through it's traditional audyssey bass management for HT as well as the speaker level connections while in 2-channel? Or maybe the sub would need to be capable of this?

 

[j_garcia]

Since you have an AVR already, the need for speaker level inputs is completely irrelevant. Use the 1910's bass management and sub preamp output(s).

As for more power, yes, you can simply add external amps via the main preamp outs from the 1910.

 

[aggmiami]

Since you have an AVR already, the need for speaker level inputs is completely irrelevant. Use the 1910's bass management and sub preamp output(s).

As for more power, yes, you can simply add external amps via the main preamp outs from the 1910.

The reason I asked the question is twofold...

1) I wanted to better understand how REL accomplishes this feature and didn't realize that it was possibly something that only REL subs provide. I also thought that maybe this was the ideal approach when setting up a 2-channel rig because of the fact that it sounded so damn good. The combination of the PMC Twenty.21's and REL sub really gave the impression that you were listening to a smoothly integrated full range speaker...at least to my ears.

2) If based on budget, I only wanted to go with a pair of the PMC's and maintain my current L/C/R intact, I figured that I would explore having two L/R's connected...a pair for HT and another pair for 2-channel.

By the way, I wasn't sure that the Denon would perform bass management in conjunction with the speaker pre-outs and sub pre-out, but it sounds like it will based on your comment.

 

[markw]

Follow J's advice. You asked a theoretical question and I tried to quickly cover all the bases. J gave you the answer to your particular situation after you clarified it.

You generally don't want to connect both line level (LFE) AND speaker level inputs simultaneously.

 

[j_garcia]

In a 2 channel rig with no bass management, yes you would want to connect the system as they suggest. No, REL is not the only manufacturer who has this option available, though you'll have to check specifically for those you're interested in to see if they have speaker level inputs if that is the route you've chosen. The reality is, that isn't a "plug and play" situation, as you'll have to manually calibrate to get them dialed in to blend perfectly with each other, regardless of manufacturer. Comparatively, most AVRs, including the 1910, have some level of Audessey room correction now and that might be of some use to you. At the very least, running it and seeing what it is doing can be of benefit when calibrating (levels it used, distances, if you can see the curve - what it thinks you're up against, etc...)

Yes, the bass management and EQ settings are still applied when using external amplification.

If I were doing separate speakers for music, I'd probably then just go a step further and keep the systems completely separate You CAN build a system based on speakers you like for music; my previous and current systems were built this way.

 

[markw]

Generally, a HT applies more boost to the LFE channel than sounds correct in a two channel, music only system.

Wen a sub gets the speaker signal, it determines what goes to your speakers a that is generally not user selectable. You CAN set the low pass and gain for the sub, though.

 

[aggmiami]

Thank you both!

 

[JustinM]

Just to be clear for anyone that may be reading this old thread.
REL does NOT filter signals going to speakers. The REL high level cable is connected in parallel with the speakers and "sees" the same signal that is going to the speakers. The full frequency signal that is provided to the speakers from the stereo or processor amp is also provided to the REL input.
This is why we encourage processors to be set up so that the speakers are set to "large" or "full frequency".

Best,

Justin
Chief Engineer
REL Acoustics

 

[<eargiant]

Just to be clear for anyone that may be reading this old thread.
REL does NOT filter signals going to speakers. The REL high level cable is connected in parallel with the speakers and "sees" the same signal that is going to the speakers. The full frequency signal that is provided to the speakers from the stereo or processor amp is also provided to the REL input.
This is why we encourage processors to be set up so that the speakers are set to "large" or "full frequency".

Best,

Justin
Chief Engineer
REL Acoustics

Hello Justin- Had to chime in to thank you guys. I have a REL sub connected and set-up as suggested paired with 805D2's and I couldn't be happier. I've dabbled with subs in the past but they just never sounded right.

The REL turned this 2 channel full range die hard into a believer, it's the best sub & integration I've heard. It blends beautifully and just disappears leaving a musical experience equivalent to what you would expect from a high quality full-ranger (provided your stand-mounts are up to the task).

Keep up the good work!

 

[lovinthehd]

I'd like a technical explanation of this strange sub/bass management setup that Rel recommends....