Stereo amps Vs AVRs

[lovinthehd]

I don't care so much about movies, because just than I will use the AVR. For music, I will use just the integrate amp. And Lyngdorf have HT setup, it's really made for HT, to can be very well integrate it.
I want to specific something, I'm very interesting in music sound quality. And if you take a look at Marantz SR6011 you will can see, he's not "so good" with 4ohm speakers like my speakers.(DALI Opticon 6).



I find in 8 ohm he have 85W. I couldn't find more specs.



Here i will put some reviews:

From http://www.geckohomecinema.com/article-details/lyngdorf-home-audio-home-cinema/:

"
CLARITY – By amplifying your music digitally, sound is reproduced with none of the distortion inherent in analogue amplifiers. Place a TDA in your music system and you will be removing dozens of analogue components from the single path. The result is sound reproduced with unparalleled clarity.

POWER – Turn up the volume on an analogue amplifier and unwelcome noise is introduced. The digital TDA can run at full volume level with no hint of strain or distortion. This sleek, compact amplifier will comfortably drive the largest of loudspeakers providing superior sound quality than can be achieved with a rack of electronics.

CONSISTANCY – The weakest link in any quality audio system is the acoustics of the listening room. As the TDA works digitally, very high fidelity room correction can be implemented that will ensure what you hear in your room is everything your speakers are capable of. With over 50 elements covering one of the audio world’s most extensive audio patents, RoomPerfect provides a breakthrough in the quality and consistency of sound reproduction."

From a owner:

"I'm fully sold on the RoomPerfect from Lyngdorf, it counters some major problems in normal setups where for example you place your speakers way out from the back wall, this resulting in a more even bass response but much worse timing in the bass. With RoomPerfect you place the speakers up against the wall(and woofers in corners/also up to the wall, if you use subs(2 prefered ofcourse)) resulting in a much better timing and with the correction a very good response.
Ive tried different room correction programs like Dirac and Audyssey xt32 but nothing has come even close to what roomperfect did for me."

From someone who made a test:

"The “basic” amplifier provides:-

· True Digital Amplification 2 x 170w- For music and TV reproduction with none of the noise and distortion found in analogue amplifiers

· RoomPerfect – optimise your speakers and reduce acoustic errors with the world’s only three dimensional room correction system

· Use as an integrated amplifier or as a pre amplifier with optional active bass management for use with single or multiple subwoofers

· Time alignment of any speaker system

· Active speaker design – allows the design of advanced speaker systems

· Voicings – tailor the sound to your personal preferences or to compensate for poor recordings

· Intersample Clipping Correction (ICC™) Reduce errors from compressed recordings

· The only automated room correction system developed for audiophile stereo applications

· Unique in performing a 3 dimensional analysis of the entire room, not just the listening positions

· The only system that derives information beyond the rooms’ acoustic properties, including:-

· Power response throughout the room

· Loudspeaker directivity

· High frequency roll-off

· Characteristics of low frequency roll-off

· A unique measurement approach measures only those frequencies that need correcting. This dramatically increases the resolution of the measurements taken

· 1/12 band correction is used - the highest resolution of any system of this type - as this is the level of resolution that is necessary for accurate correction."

Maybe all the review are subjective, but are better than unsupported opinions(I mean from the people who didn't even try it/listening).

Stop the presses! Geckohomecinema has spoken! Digital amp, eh? For your digital speakers? LOL.

 

[whiplash]

Stop the presses! Geckohomecinema has spoken! Digital amp, eh? For your digital speakers? LOL.

I didn't got this one, can you explain me with other words please?

 

[whiplash]

No. Without some actual bench testing, reviews are nothing but unsupported opinions.

It's quite apparent that you're not receptive to anything that contradicts the BS marketing you've previously encountered. Until you become more "open minded" about how all this works and learn to take a hint, you will forever be lost in the consumerism maze. I suggest applying basic academic research standards to vetting your sources of information.

How about to give it a try and be "open minded"? And we talk after.

 

[Pogre]

I'm beginning to think we're being trolled...

*unwatch thread

 

[whiplash]

Ok, np for me, I'm not a troller. And anyway I "got" my answer from Rich. So I don't need more.

Have fun all.

Bye.

 

[MrBoat]

Dude, look here, I already said twice, and I will tell you last time. A dealer made me an offer the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 + HDMI card(not with HDMI+USB+Analogic inputs) AT THE SAME PRICE LIKE BASIC MODEL.
Now, here a link to see the price for basic one:

http://www.uploudaudio.com/boutique/lyngdorf-tdai-2170/

$2,899.00, that's the price.

And he even make a reduction of price. Not a big one, but anyway better than nothing.

Some people are really grudge, I dunno what they "win" with that or that is kind of excitation?

Now, have fun.

This tells more of sort of obvious logic. Meaning, why the salesman is willing to sell at basic price. Because most people do not find this technology necessary and he would likely find a good opportunity to get out from under this product that he has a good chance of sitting on until it becomes obsolete and is forwarded to a discount outlet as NOS.

My friend started to market his MacIntosh for sale a little over a year ago. Had it serviced, has all original paperwork and was asking over 3k dollars for it. He make some comments about this amp being out of my (which it really is, being that practicality haunts me) league, even though my system currently sounds better than his, due to me recently trouncing him with a better pair of speakers. But now he is asking $1,200 for the amp and I have a good mind to buy (offer lower) it just for general principal of his condescension. Or. . .to make it known that I help him get out from under his predicament, and to thank him repeatedly for bringing this opportunity 'down' to my "league."

ETA: I chose same audio quality because I have been able to create multiple effects of what I use with the AVR using the EQ manually and with that in the computer and I have just scratched the surface so far. As I learn what each combination of treatments does, the possibilities seem endless. And this all from one chair.

 

[whiplash]

This tells more of sort of obvious logic. Meaning, why the salesman is willing to sell at basic price. Because most people do not find this technology necessary and he would likely find a good opportunity to get out from under this product that he has a good chance of sitting on until it becomes obsolete and is forwarded to a discount outlet as NOS.

My friend started to market his MacIntosh for sale a little over a year ago. Had it serviced, has all original paperwork and was asking over 3k dollars for it. He make some comments about this amp being out of my (which it really is, being that practicality haunts me) league, even though my system currently sounds better than his, due to me recently trouncing him with a better pair of speakers. But now he is asking $1,200 for the amp and I have a good mind to buy (offer lower) it just for general principal of his condescension. Or. . .to make it known that I help him get out from under his predicament, and to thank him repeatedly for bringing this opportunity 'down' to my "league."

ETA: I chose same audio quality because I have been able to create multiple effects of what I use with the AVR using the EQ manually and with that in the computer and I have just scratched the surface so far. As I learn what each combination of treatments does, the possibilities seem endless. And this all from one chair.

The amp come with 3 option, HDMI card, USB card or/and Analog card. Why you think he propose me the HDMI card(I ask for a price offer from 5 store)? Because Lyngdorf came out the 4k HDMI card.
It's easy to pick on any thing just to attack me dude But I know, "despite" is huge especially when people don't agree your opinion

And be sure, if I would had possibility to upgrade the speakers, I have done it, like the Rubicon 6. And just to give some clarifications to Pogre, I simply like almost everything made by scandinavian, I own also scandinavian car, shoes and much more.

 

[MrBoat]

The amp come with 3 option, HDMI card, USB card or/and Analog card. Why you think he propose me the HDMI card(I ask for a price offer from 5 store)? Because Lyngdorf came out the 4k HDMI card.
It's easy to pick on any thing just to attack me dude But I know, "despite" is huge especially when people don't agree your opinion

And be sure, if I would had possibility to upgrade the speakers, I have done it, like the Rubicon 6. And just to give some clarifications to Pogre, I simply like almost everything made by scandinavian, I own also scandinavian car, shoes and much more.

No attack. Your selection doesn't change my life and I have no benefit to attack you or undermine your requirements. Just a thought is all, and generally speaking at that. But it occurs to me because I see prices change from beginning of year to end, so I question motives with everything sales these days.

One of my very good friends is Danske and taught me very much about computers and I hosted him and his friend here many times and now he lives in USA! But, they're candy is awful! He brings salt lakrids of many different varieties and I still think the acrid taste is in my mouth! He also say our beer is "piss." lol

But I introduce him to giant beef cuts, Cuban sandwiches, boiled peanuts and I find him some good beer and an American girl he married so all is good now.

 

[whiplash]

No attack. Your selection doesn't change my life and I have no benefit to attack you or undermine your requirements. Just a thought is all, and generally speaking at that. But it occurs to me because I see prices change from beginning of year to end, so I question motives with everything sales these days.

One of my very good friends is Danske and taught me very much about computers and I hosted him and his friend here many times and now he lives in USA! But, they're candy is awful! He brings salt lakrids of many different varieties and I still think the acrid taste is in my mouth! He also say our beer is "piss." lol

But I introduce him to giant beef cuts, Cuban sandwiches, boiled peanuts and I find him some good beer and an American girl he married so all is good now.

That's pretty nice dude. I wish to eat your's big sandwich and ribs and much more I just remember some episode with Andrew Zimmerman and even now I drool over after a few things what I saw in his "Bizarre Food"

 

[KenM10759]

I didn't read all 5 pages of posts because they're fundamentally the same as all the similar threads asking the same question. My answer doesn't really reflect the true nature of the question because I also think audio quality is too subjective to be measured. But I answered "integrated amp" for one reason:

It's my belief that when you take out all the extra amps, processors, capacitors, and connections and concentrate on two channels more money goes into those two than the 7, 9 or more of an AVR. There's generally more power on those two channels for similar money. It should be less money but as was said early on by swerd, economies of scale are lost on low numbers of integrated amps so cost per unit increases.

I'd like to try an integrated amp sometime. I've heard a few and like the 150-200+ watts per channel ones. A lot.

 

[PENG]

I didn't read all 5 pages of posts because they're fundamentally the same as all the similar threads asking the same question. My answer doesn't really reflect the true nature of the question because I also think audio quality is too subjective to be measured. But I answered "integrated amp" for one reason:

It's my belief that when you take out all the extra amps, processors, capacitors, and connections and concentrate on two channels more money goes into those two than the 7, 9 or more of an AVR. There's generally more power on those two channels for similar money. It should be less money but as was said early on by swerd, economies of scale are lost on low numbers of integrated amps so cost per unit increases.

I'd like to try an integrated amp sometime. I've heard a few and like the 150-200+ watts per channel ones. A lot.

Hey Ken, good to hear from you too and I expected you to vote integrated amp. I understand your rationale, and that's very much what I used to believe when I started acquiring and collecting various gear including amps, dacs, media players etc. over the years. When I look at facts and figures though, I could see that the reasons you cited (again, I did too) do not always translate into audibly better sound. That is, isolating those electronic and electrical components and substituting some with more expensive ones just don't necessarily result in audibly better sound quality. Just take a look of different loudspeaker's frequency response and distortion graphs, and compare them with those for different amplifiers and there should be no surprise why swapping comparable amps and AVRs don't make much, if any audible differences.

I have actually used REW to plot graphs using the same speakers with different preamps/amps to compare the effects between using AVR only, AVR preout with the Halo A21, CA preamp with the Halo A21, and the same but substitute the A21 with a vintage Marantz amp. With volume matched, those graphs overlay almostly perfectly such that they look like one graph, with the exception of the range between 20-35Hz where I can see 2 to 3 dB difference in a couple of points, that is nothing compared to the changes by even moving the MIC a few inches in any direction. Having done so many comparison listening tests and plotting numerous graphs, I have no more doubt any minor differences I previous thought I heard were imaginary, mostly due to expectation biased.

 

[whiplash]

So my friends, I'M IN HEAVEN! I am really as happy as I can not even describe! I just installed the Lyngdorf TDAI-2170 with my Opticon 6. This is something incredible. It's like night-day the difference. I'm really excited The first piece was Pink Floyd - Hey you, when I heard the drummer, I felt like he was in front of me! I'm glad i spend so much money, I'm really are. People who will have the possibility to "hear" this amp will understand. I'll tell you more next time, I go listen music now, cause it's really a pleasure now
I'm happy cause i find the answer between AVR and a integrate amp!

Have a nice week-end all!

 

[<eargiant]

I have actually used REW to plot graphs using the same speakers with different preamps/amps to compare the effects between using AVR only, AVR preout with the Halo A21, CA preamp with the Halo A21, and the same but substitute the A21 with a vintage Marantz amp. With volume matched, those graphs overlay almostly perfectly such that they look like one graph, with the exception of the range between 20-35Hz where I can see 2 to 3 dB difference in a couple of points, that is nothing compared to the changes by even moving the MIC a few inches in any direction. Having done so many comparison listening tests and plotting numerous graphs, I have no more doubt any minor differences I previous thought I heard were imaginary, mostly due to expectation biased.

What AVR did you use?

 

[PENG]

What AVR did you use?

For those tests, Denon AVR-3805.

 

[<eargiant]

For those tests, Denon AVR-3805.

Now I'm even more interested because I believe that is practically identical to my Denon AVR-3803, so I have to ask a few more questions to be sure I understand this correctly before I comment:

What is the "CA" preamp you refer to (sorry, too many brands to keep track of)?

What model vintage Marantz amp and was it completely restored?

What speakers were you using?

 

[PENG]

Now I'm even more interested because I believe that is practically identical to my Denon AVR-3803, so I have to ask a few more questions to be sure I understand this correctly before I comment:

What is the "CA" preamp you refer to (sorry, too many brands to keep track of)?

What model vintage Marantz amp and was it completely restored?

What speakers were you using?

The preamp is a Cambridge Audio 840E. The Marantz are the SM-7 and SC-7. For those comparisons I used the R900 and LS50. Most of the time I use the separates on the LS50 but I swap them now and then, right now the LS50 is with the 3805. I am using the SM-7 for my desktop 2.1 system.

 

[<eargiant]

The preamp is a Cambridge Audio 840E. The Marantz are the SM-7 and SC-7. For those comparisons I used the R900 and LS50. Most of the time I use the separates on the LS50 but I swap them now and then, right now the LS50 is with the 3805. I am using the SM-7 for my desktop 2.1 system.

Thanks for the background info.

If in essence you are saying that your Denon AVR-3805 will reproduce real music with basically no audible difference when compared to a Parasound A21/CA 840E combo, I have to say that I'm quite surprised but I have to admit, it reminds me of one of John Atkinson's Golden Rules- "All measurements tell lies".

Maybe the CA was the Achilles heel. I don't know I haven't heard either but the A21 seems like a very capable amp.

I'm fairly confident that if the same amp combinations you used were run through an Audio Precision Analyzer the results would be quite different. Some will say the differences would still not be audible regardless of the AP results. I think what you're saying is it doesn't matter because in the end it's what the speakers reproduce that counts (and it won't vary). If so, I disagree. I've heard complex musical passages rendered with ease on the same speakers that previously had trouble - after moving up to a better designed/engineered level of amplification.

There's a reason why engineers design the better amp and pre-amps the way they do. All of that engineering usually does make a dramatic audible difference when playing real music at varying volume levels and loads. The design and construction principles that constitute an amplifier with superior performance are not snake oil, they're science and good engineering. The ensuing improvement in the quality of the sound being reproduced is usually not placebo but actually there. I may be wrong but the amp section of the Denon AVR-3805/3803 appears to be a plaything when compared to the Parasound A21. Good enough? Sure I guess. But equivalent in results? Hard to believe.

Generally speaking, should we tell engineers not to concern themselves with things like current, filter capacitance, ripple, transformers, the quality & quantity of output devices (and proper heatsinks for them), high quality discrete components, feedback or lack thereof, signal to noise ratio, circuit design, the amount of gain chosen in a pre-amp stage, etc. because it will not make an audible difference in the final product?

I firmly believe that it does but I guess that we all see (hear) things differently.

 

[PENG]

Thanks for the background info.

If in essence you are saying that your Denon AVR-3805 will reproduce real music with basically no audible difference when compared to a Parasound A21/CA 840E combo, I have to say that I'm quite surprised but I have to admit, it reminds me of one of John Atkinson's Golden Rules- "All measurements tell lies".

Maybe the CA was the Achilles heel. I don't know I haven't heard either but the A21 seems like a very capable amp.

I'm fairly confident that if the same amp combinations you used were run through an Audio Precision Analyzer the results would be quite different. Some will say the differences would still not be audible regardless of the AP results. I think what you're saying is it doesn't matter because in the end it's what the speakers reproduce that counts (and it won't vary). If so, I disagree. I've heard complex musical passages rendered with ease on the same speakers that previously had trouble - after moving up to a better designed/engineered level of amplification.

There's a reason why engineers design the better amp and pre-amps the way they do. All of that engineering usually does make a dramatic audible difference when playing real music at varying volume levels and loads. The design and construction principles that constitute an amplifier with superior performance are not snake oil, they're science and good engineering. The ensuing improvement in the quality of the sound being reproduced is usually not placebo but actually there. I may be wrong but the amp section of the Denon AVR-3805/3803 appears to be a plaything when compared to the Parasound A21. Good enough? Sure I guess. But equivalent in results? Hard to believe.

Generally speaking, should we tell engineers not to concern themselves with things like current, filter capacitance, ripple, transformers, the quality & quantity of output devices (and proper heatsinks for them), high quality discrete components, feedback or lack thereof, signal to noise ratio, circuit design, the amount of gain chosen in a pre-amp stage, etc. because it will not make an audible difference in the final product?

I firmly believe that it does but I guess that we all see (hear) things differently.

I concur with >95% of what you are saying including your guess of my logic. The only <5% I disagree with you is the "audible" part and again you know my logic on that already, though I can assure you my belief is based on experience, not logic alone. Obviously I acquired some of my equipment not only for their better build quality but also for their perceived better sound quality, but after many AB comparisons over the years, including those with more discerning hearing (also much younger and sort of musician too) ability, I know better quality does not translate into better sound. The best scenario I have experienced was when in on such AB, the guy was able to get it right more than 50% of the time when the DUT were between the A21 and 4B SST. He knew the SST amp has better build quality and specs, but it was a single blind test.

The CA preamp is a front to end class A differential design (I have a written response from CA's customer support). I don't think the speakers are the limiting factor either because I have done similar comparisons with theoretically much more discerning speakers, both in dealer's place and my own. Regardless I used the other Marantz preamp too, made no difference.

I would still have bought all those amps anyway for reasons you cited, and may even trade in one or two in the future but it won't be for sound quality. As a practicing EE for many years, I could have given you real world examples of how better build components with better specs don't always produce tangible results, but obviously it won't change our views/beliefs.

You asked a lot of questions and I think I have answered them all. If there are more, feel free to PM me instead.

 

[<eargiant]

I concur with >95% of what you are saying including your guess of my logic. The only <5% I disagree with you is the "audible" part and again you know my logic on that already, though I can assure you my belief is based on experience, not logic alone. Obviously I acquired some of my equipment not only for their better build quality but also for their perceived better sound quality, but after many AB comparisons over the years, including those with more discerning hearing (also much younger and sort of musician too) ability, I know better quality does not translate into better sound. The best scenario I have experienced was when in on such AB, the guy was able to get it right more than 50% of the time when the DUT were between the A21 and 4B SST. He knew the SST amp has better build quality and specs, but it was a single blind test.

The CA preamp is a front to end class A differential design (I have a written response from CA's customer support). I don't think the speakers are the limiting factor either because I have done similar comparisons with theoretically much more discerning speakers, both in dealer's place and my own. Regardless I used the other Marantz preamp too, made no difference.

I would still have bought all those amps anyway for reasons you cited, and may even trade in one or two in the future but it won't be for sound quality. As a practicing EE for many years, I could have given you real world examples of how better build components with better specs don't always produce tangible results, but obviously it won't change our views/beliefs.

You asked a lot of questions and I think I have answered them all. If there are more, feel free to PM me instead.

Heh heh- no more questions, I just wanted to be sure I understood what you were saying because it was so contradictory to my personal experiences but hey, that's the hobby.

Either way, if we agree on >95% of what I said we're in pretty good shape. Heck I'll give it another 1% because I can agree that sometimes better engineering doesn't always give tangible results.

But I'm going to keep the last <4% and chalk that one up to personal experience because to my ears there's no way, no how that my Denon AVR-3803 or my brother-in-laws* AVR-3312ci sound as good as a quality dedicated 2 channel amp (non-AVRs) when playing music on a variety of speakers.

* He used to be firmly in the AVR camp. I can tell you how his opinion changed on the matter but that's a story for another thread...

 

[PENG]

Heh heh- no more questions, I just wanted to be sure I understood what you were saying because it was so contradictory to my personal experiences but hey, that's the hobby.

Either way, if we agree on >95% of what I said we're in pretty good shape. Heck I'll give it another 1% because I can agree that sometimes better engineering doesn't always give tangible results.

But I'm going to keep the last <4% and chalk that one up to personal experience because to my ears there's no way, no how that my Denon AVR-3803 or my brother-in-laws* AVR-3312ci sound as good as a quality dedicated 2 channel amp (non-AVRs) when playing music on a variety of speakers.

* He used to be firmly in the AVR camp. I can tell you how his opinion changed on the matter but that's a story for another thread...

Well, this should be for another thread too, but since you mentioned the 3312ci so I must tell you this and then I will stop. AcuDefTechGuy has all sorts of high end amps including the fully differential top end Denon AVP, yet if I remember right, he seems to think his 3312 (or 3313?) sounds just as good, or at least good enough for his 802D2, Philharmonic 3 etc as his other high end amps.

On another note, in recent days I started playing around with external DACs since I acquired the HA-1 about a year ago. I am not saying they sound very different from one another but I definitely think I can rank my 6 or 7 DACs including the internal ones in the Oppo 105 and Marantz AV8801. Unlike speakers and source media, the differences are still very subtle, but I do find it easier to tell them apart than between amps and avrs. It could still be Placebo because speakers sound signature vary so great that they should have no trouble burying any minute differences between good quality DACs that can only be identified by precise instruments. Just take a look of some know to be among the most accurate speakers frequency response and distortions plots you will know what I am talking about.