Steerable Dolby Atmos Enabled Speaker Proposal

[admin]

With Dolby Atmos about to hit the home theater scene, manufacturers are gearing up to provide new speakers in order to allow consumers to achieve the Atmos experience. There are currently two options for realizing Atmos at home (ceiling mounted downfiring or Atmos Ready Upfiring speakers). However, I propose a possible third option, or a tweak to option #2.

Introducing the steerable Dolby Atmos Surround Speaker.

Imagine being able to wallmount a surround or front effect channel with an adjustable Atmos driver!

Read our Steerable Dolby Atmos Speaker Proposal

Do you see this opening up more possibilities of integrating Dolby Atmos into your home theater? Please comment in this thread and vote in our poll.

 

[riker1384]

Pioneer actually had a product that could do something like this, it was the PDSP-1 Sound Projector. This was the predecessor to the Yamaha YSP sound projectors, but it used a two-dimensional phased array of drivers instead of Yamaha's cheaper one-dimensional (and more bandwith-limited) arrays. It could bounce multiple steerable beams off the ceiling and walls.

Pioneer Digital Sound Projector: PDSP-1 - Pioneer Europe

It would cool to have something in your living room that looks and operates like an Aegis radar. Perhaps it could also be used as an air-defense sonar system to search for and track multiple aerial targets including houseflies, mosquitos or some of the noisier pet birds. It could then be used disable or repel them with focused beams of high-intensity sound.

 

[RichB]

Gene's article also presents a way forward for those with high-quality mains and some constraints at home

Although, I voted for not adding speakers right now, a steerable wall mount or ceiling mount is the only viable option in my room.
The ceiling is not flat nor symmetrical , so a down-firing speaker would also require steering.

Only Onkyo has HDCP 2.2 support which looks like a requirement for 4K BD over HDMI.
Onkyo has dropped Audyssey, so many will not find that choice suitable.
Another AVR/Processor revision will be required.

- Rich

 

[cpp]

Gene why not adjustable in ceiling speakers, like for example the Martin Logan Architectural Series . As Dolby has noted the home Atmos is designed for 8-9 ft ceilings. If I had to go Atmos, adjustable in ceiling speakers would be my choice to supplement my existing speaker system.

 

[j_garcia]

I think option #2 is most likely, and if steerable wall or ceiling speakers are OK, why not steerable on a tower?.

 

[gene]

I think option #2 is most likely, and if steerable wall or ceiling speakers are OK, why not steerable on a tower?.

Sure I don't see why not but time will tell if the whole Atmos speaker concept takes off or not.

 

[gene]

Gene why not adjustable in ceiling speakers, like for example the Martin Logan Architectural Series . As Dolby has noted the home Atmos is designed for 8-9 ft ceilings. If I had to go Atmos, adjustable in ceiling speakers would be my choice to supplement my existing speaker system.

I believe Thiel had a motorized in-ceiling speaker that would angle down when it use. I don't see why that couldn't be adopted for Atmos.

 

[j_garcia]

I believe Thiel had a motorized in-ceiling speaker that would angle down when it use. I don't see why that couldn't be adopted for Atmos.

That's exactly what came to mind when I saw the bellows concept. They were angled and could be retracted into the ceiling.

 

[MidnightSensi2]

I like the proactive approach of suggesting better solutions!

It does make more sense, but, just a few 'manufacturing' type thoughts that might have come into play:
-Designs which pivot might add considerable expense to both direct and indirect costs to build the speakers. The question manufacturers likely asked when discussing a rotatable driver is how much perceived value would be gained versus the increase in cost (and/or less margin) to their target market.
-When developing standards like this, to get adoption generally they'll try to use whats called 'existing processes' or "steps in the manufacturing lines that already exist" .. so, drilling another driver on top and adding another set of binding posts is much easier for a manufacturer to adopt than a rotating solution. They already have a "step" for cutting the holes (likely on a CNC machine, so your just adding a little machine time to each sheet), and a step for adding drivers... but not one for pivots, etc.
-Another thing to consider are things like customer education (will they know what to do with the rotatable speakers by documentation, and, who will handle phone calls/customer service) and quality control resources.

Even on a small line, this stuff adds up fast. A few dollars worth of material costs might mean dramatic difference in total cost. Doesn't mean its not possible, though - if a manufacturer thinks they have a market they very well might, as others have done for inwalls and such mentioned earlier.

Gene why not adjustable in ceiling speakers, like for example the Martin Logan Architectural Series . As Dolby has noted the home Atmos is designed for 8-9 ft ceilings. If I had to go Atmos, adjustable in ceiling speakers would be my choice to supplement my existing speaker system.

Ceiling speakers are an option. The reason for these 'Atmos enabled' speakers with a driver on top is likely designed with those not willing to run wires and cut for inwalls in their home (or whom can't).

Sure I don't see why not but time will tell if the whole Atmos speaker concept takes off or not.

Nod. So far seems like the benefit is more to the studios.

 

[gene]

Guys just for fun I ran a little "Atmos" experiment while making some speaker measurements. I put a bookshelf speaker on a stand firing up at the ceiling and ran some sweep tones. What I found was even sitting far away from the speaker, it was localizable below 500Hz. Once I started getting above that, it was hard for me to pinpoint the location of the sound. In fact it sounded like the sound was coming from the left corner of my room despite the speaker was located more towards the middle of my room. When I moved my head, the location changed pretty drastically. As I got closer to the speaker, I found I was able to localize it up to about 2-3kHz.

The Floorstanding Atmos speaker in the front of the room away from the listening area may work but I have reservations of how a standmounted bookshelf speaker positioned so closely to the seated area would work.

Of course I am using test tones and not bandwidth limited music or effects. Also I don't have the DSP processing of Dolby Atmos yet to see how that could affect the results.

Perhaps this is something to study deeper in a future editorial.

I encourage anyone with a sweep generator and desire to run some experiments on their own.

 

[gene]

I like the proactive approach of suggesting better solutions!

It does make more sense, but, just a few 'manufacturing' type thoughts that might have come into play:
-Designs which pivot might add considerable expense to both direct and indirect costs to build the speakers. The question manufacturers likely asked when discussing a rotatable driver is how much perceived value would be gained versus the increase in cost (and/or less margin) to their target market.
-When developing standards like this, to get adoption generally they'll try to use whats called 'existing processes' or "steps in the manufacturing lines that already exist" .. so, drilling another driver on top and adding another set of binding posts is much easier for a manufacturer to adopt than a rotating solution. They already have a "step" for cutting the holes (likely on a CNC machine, so your just adding a little machine time to each sheet), and a step for adding drivers... but not one for pivots, etc.
-Another thing to consider are things like customer education (will they know what to do with the rotatable speakers by documentation, and, who will handle phone calls/customer service) and quality control resources.

Even on a small line, this stuff adds up fast. A few dollars worth of material costs might mean dramatic difference in total cost. Doesn't mean its not possible, though - if a manufacturer thinks they have a market they very well might, as others have done for inwalls and such mentioned earlier.




Ceiling speakers are an option. The reason for these 'Atmos enabled' speakers with a driver on top is likely designed with those not willing to run wires and cut for inwalls in their home (or whom can't).



Nod. So far seems like the benefit is more to the studios.

Good points and adding an adjustable baffle makes it difficult to control Fs but since the driver is operating above 180Hz it may not be as big of an issue.

 

[MidnightSensi2]

In the Pioneer's, is the upward firing driver isolated from the forward firing drivers?

 

[gene]

In the Pioneer's, is the upward firing driver isolated from the forward firing drivers?

Yes. Can anyone tell me why my experiment I just ran in attempts to localize the sound was flawed? Read carefully what I did.

 

[cpp]

Yes. Can anyone tell me why my experiment I just ran in attempts to localize the sound was flawed? Read carefully what I did.

I take you didn't use a movie in the Dolby Atmos format nor did you have a Atmos processor to take advantage of the format. You missed out on all the "stuff" ATMOS is supposed to give you. Your tones were just lost in space with no real purpose.

 

[agarwalro]

Pioneer actually had a product that could do something like this, it was the PDSP-1 Sound Projector. This was the predecessor to the Yamaha YSP sound projectors, but it used a two-dimensional phased array of drivers instead of Yamaha's cheaper one-dimensional (and more bandwith-limited) arrays. It could bounce multiple steerable beams off the ceiling and walls.

Pioneer Digital Sound Projector: PDSP-1 - Pioneer Europe

It would cool to have something in your living room that looks and operates like an Aegis radar. Perhaps it could also be used as an air-defense sonar system to search for and track multiple aerial targets including houseflies, mosquitos or some of the noisier pet birds. It could then be used disable or repel them with focused beams of high-intensity sound.

The only thing I find funny (since it defy's physics) with the marketing BS, is that somehow the surround sound is supposed to pass through the main listening position, (if the diagram is an indication, lensed, aka louder) yet, bounce back as a surround effect. Ain't happen'en.

Don't get me wrong. There are array speakers that get things right (using physics, not defying it). Case in point, Don Keele's CBT36. I know some day I'll DIY this to sate my curiosity.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I believe Thiel had a motorized in-ceiling speaker that would angle down when it use. I don't see why that couldn't be adopted for Atmos.

That's exactly what came to mind when I saw the bellows concept. They were angled and could be retracted into the ceiling.

The idea is good. Retrofit would not be simple. What drives the motor, 12V or 120V?

 

[mtrycrafts]

I think option #2 is most likely, and if steerable wall or ceiling speakers are OK, why not steerable on a tower?.

The only drawback to this is a replacement is needed for the existing speaker..$$$$ especially if one likes what they have. But, one of these streeable speaker modules with only the top firing driver could be mounted on to of an existing floor speaker.

 

[gene]

I take you didn't use a movie in the Dolby Atmos format nor did you have a Atmos processor to take advantage of the format. You missed out on all the "stuff" ATMOS is supposed to give you. Your tones were just lost in space with no real purpose.

Not available yet. I used simple discrete tones. <!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]-->Tones are very difficult to localize b/c they lack transients like a real instrument or speech. We can't localize sustained formants, tones and harmonics very well.

So I played some mono music through the speaker with a 200Hz HPF engaged in my processor. <!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--> Using a Coaxial speaker in a back box, I tried this both with the speaker close to the wall and out in the room. I bandwidth limited the speaker to 200Hz via the bass management in my AVR.

With music, it didn't seem to make much difference the sound seemed to emanate from the speaker, maybe just slightly higher up on the wall when placed close to the rear wall. Not much though. Sound certainly never sounded like it was coming from the ceiling like the Atmos Enabled speaker diagrams are showing us.

Perhaps Dolby is doing some advanced DSP processing that makes this effect more believable? I guess we will have to see.

I invite anyone with the desire to rerun my experiment and share your results here.

Perhaps instead of using music, playback a movie with lots of transients like gun shots or explosions. Shut off ALL of your speakers except the one you have firing up at the ceiling. Make sure the HPF is set to 200Hz and let it rip. Try placing the speaker towards the front of the room and sit in your money seat. Then repeat the experiment with the speaker placed behind your listening area and see how the closer proximity changes this. Also try a third trial by placing the speaker a up higher towards the ceiling (way above ear level) and aim it at the ceiling. Does this better recreate the bounce effect Atmos is promising?

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->
<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->

 

[cpp]

Not available yet. I used simple discrete tones. <!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]-->Tones are very difficult to localize b/c they lack transients like a real instrument or speech. We can't localize sustained formants, tones and harmonics very well.

So I played some mono music through the speaker with a 200Hz HPF engaged in my processor. <!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--> Using a Coaxial speaker in a back box, I tried this both with the speaker close to the wall and out in the room. I bandwidth limited the speaker to 200Hz via the bass management in my AVR.

With music, it didn't seem to make much difference the sound seemed to emanate from the speaker, maybe just slightly higher up on the wall when placed close to the rear wall. Not much though. Sound certainly never sounded like it was coming from the ceiling like the Atmos Enabled speaker diagrams are showing us.

Perhaps Dolby is doing some advanced DSP processing that makes this effect more believable? I guess we will have to see.

I invite anyone with the desire to rerun my experiment and share your results here.

Perhaps instead of using music, playback a movie with lots of transients like gun shots or explosions. Shut off ALL of your speakers except the one you have firing up at the ceiling. Make sure the HPF is set to 200Hz and let it rip. Try placing the speaker towards the front of the room and sit in your money seat. Then repeat the experiment with the speaker placed behind your listening area and see how the closer proximity changes this. Also try a third trial by placing the speaker a up higher towards the ceiling (way above ear level) and aim it at the ceiling. Does this better recreate the bounce effect Atmos is promising?

<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->
<!--[if gte mso 9]><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <![endif]-->

Gene it seems if your trying to obtain the experience that one of the few Atmos theaters offer I feel your going to need either a Dolby Atmos processor or a Atmos avr to decide an Atmos movie.

Gene I will give your experiment I know it's late and my retired brain is old but what is HPF

 

[Stanton]

So are you thinking about patenting option #3?!